Originally posted by LeftBehind
Free falling objects do not change velocity unless they encounter air resistance or hit something.

Absolutely false. The free-falling objects in this case began their falls with no downward velocity, and then positively accelerated downwards.

Do you seriously think that free-falling objects do not accelerate?

The Towers did not fall at free fall.

Will you stop with this? WE ARE NOT ARGUING THIS, AND HAVEN'T BEEN. If you really did understand our argument then you wouldn't be repeating this every other sentence!

The fact remains that the freefalling debris hit the ground faster than the non free falling building.

This is another illustration that you do not understand the argument.

What you think is proving your point, is actually debris falling from different heights.

Explain how this could possibly support your position in this issue.

And that puff of debris could very well be a blast of debris being forced out below the collapse, while not being the main part of the collapse.

The amount of compressed gas at this point in the collapse, even if all of the previous floors gas had been forced directly onto the floor below for some physically impossible reason, would not have been great enough to cause any expulsions.

If you argue that the collapse itself did this then you are contradicting your own attempt at refuting our point.

You're not making sense, LB, and I really don't think you get the argument even now, especially since you keep repeating that the buildings did not fall at free fall speed, and reference debris hitting the ground first. If you understood the argument you'd realize how off-topic and irrelevant that information is. Take it from me -- BillyBob will tell you himself that I'm getting what he's saying.

Holy crap..... I think I have an approach that will be less brain-intensive so that we migh get ourselves on the same page, here.

Let's look at this from a different perspective.

What goes into arming a building for demolition?

Well.... first off.... there are days of prepwork where concrete is stripped from around steel supports, and then those steel supports are cut with cutting torches to ensure the steel 'pops off' at a certain angle.

Also, the explosive charges used in demolition are small - their area of effect deliberately kept very small to keep from sending debris out like high-velocity grenades.

You have to go through this process to really destroy steel - which was one of the primary weight-bearing materials in the entire structure. You can place three tons of TNT in that building you might cause a colapse - but you'd me more likely to strip the place of concrete for several floors and blow out the glass - and scare the living hell out of people below.

The biggest threats to steel are impact and prolongued heat exposure.

So..... we have to hide this massive project for days prior to the event. .... Not likely - ever or at all.

Then we've got your nice 'freefall' deal to play with.... there are several forces at work, here, one is gravity, one is natrual air resistance, and another is a pressure zone that develops behind the falling structure, which, in this unique case, would likely serve to increase the rate of acceleration.

You're also watching the wrong part of the tower - as if the top floor colapsed and then the preceeding floors followed. The top of the building stays mostly in-tact, above the impact zone, until it hits the initial resistance with the lowest floor of that piece, crumbling both floors, and continuing downward. The process continues with two essential colapses that works in a 'catapulting' reaction. It also generates some of those spectacular plumes of dust and debris that become ejected from the tower as it colapses. You're talking several thousand cubic meters of air being forced out of four or five thousand square feet of area that shrinks as the compression ratio increases....... that's a lot of force.

Common sense? Did you ever play around with tinker toys, legos, fireworks..... STUFF when you were a kid? That's all basic and intuitive physics derived from childhood play and observation. .... or at least for me.... am I alone, here?

bump.

important thread. i was just observing this same phenomena of freefalling debris on the outside of the building being passed by expulsions from within on a different video.
i'll see if i can make another illustrative pic. sometime this week, hopefully.

i miss WCIP! (hell, i even miss howard, my arch-nemesis, LOL!)

Originally posted by billybob
i miss WCIP! (hell, i even miss howard, my arch-nemesis, LOL!)

Bump as well. Will be nice to see the new photos. I too miss these folks. Don't forget Agent Smith also.

Originally posted by Aim64C

What goes into arming a building for demolition?

Well.... first off.... there are days of prepwork where concrete is stripped from around steel supports, and then those steel supports are cut with cutting torches to ensure the steel 'pops off' at a certain angle.

Also, the explosive charges used in demolition are small - their area of effect deliberately kept very small to keep from sending debris out like high-velocity grenades.

You have to go through this process to really destroy steel - which was one of the primary weight-bearing materials in the entire structure. You can place three tons of TNT in that building you might cause a colapse - but you'd me more likely to strip the place of concrete for several floors and blow out the glass - and scare the living hell out of people below.

You may want to insert the "Thermate" argument here. I actually posted a calculation several months ago as to how much ThermITE it would take to cause the damage to the WTC. It was in the THOUSANDS of pounds. Yes THOUSANDS. So we get the therMATE argument that it is more powerful than therMITE. So...we know that that is a VERY difficult way to cut/burn somthing. You would have to build a harness for the thermate to burn in the direction you want it to. To cut the column at the necessary angles would be next to impossible. This is for EACH column...and not knowing EXACTLY where the planes are going to hit, you would have to plant a whole bunch!

We then get the "Jellied" Thermate...tops secret stuff that is military grade. You just lather it on... and VIOLA! Instant cutting charges! Again, same rules apply as to accessibility.

I'm sorry, I undestand that things CAN get snuck into a building..ie: the posibility of bombs at Oak City Murah Building. 1993 WTC Bombing...etc..But you would have to gain access to these columns..and these offices were occupied. You would have to take the walls down to apply the jelly thermate (or whatever you're using)

Even if we look at the posibility that there was a variety of explosives, the same reasonable questions should be asked. HOW??

Dont start with the strawman arguments about power downs and all that. We all know thats a pack of boloney.

Again, I work in a 1 million sq. foot building (yes I know its not NEAR the size of the towers)...Our security is a JOKE...but I tell you.. they know AND SO DO I ...as to what work is going on. Security cameras are not only into VCR's anymore. Our CCTV cameras go into the internet where they can be monitored. I can't be sure that this was available PRE 9-11 but after 1993, we can be confident that the security was top notch.

Thats my rant for now.

Originally posted by CameronFox
1993 WTC Bombing...etc..But you would have to gain access to these columns..and these offices were occupied. You would have to take the walls down to apply the jelly thermate (or whatever you're using)

Simple question. Where the mechanical floors occupied? I think by now you know what my theory is with the core columns and the mechanical floors. I actually don't know the answer and am really asking you.

[edit on 5/23/2007 by Griff]

[edit on 5/23/2007 by Griff]

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by CameronFox
1993 WTC Bombing...etc..But you would have to gain access to these columns..and these offices were occupied. You would have to take the walls down to apply the jelly thermate (or whatever you're using)

Simple question. Where the mechanical floors occupied? I think by now you know what my theory is with the core columns and the mechanical floors. I actually don't know the answer and am really asking you.

Most mechanical floors require external vents or louvers for ventilation and heat rejection along most or all of their perimeter, precluding the use of glass windows. The resulting visible "dark bands" can disrupt the overall facade design especially if it is fully glass-clad. Different architectural styles approach this challenge in different ways.

In the Modern and International styles of the 1960s and 1970s where form follows function, the vents' presence is not seen as undesirable. Rather it emphasizes the functional layout of the building by dividing it neatly into equal blocks, mirroring the layout of the elevators and offices inside. This could be clearly seen on the World Trade Center twin towers and can be seen on the Sears Tower.

Conversely, designers of the recent postmodern-style skyscrapers strive to mask the vents and other mechanical elements in clever and ingenious ways. This is accomplished through such means as complex wall angles (Petronas Towers), intricate latticework cladding (Jin Mao Building), or non-glassed sections that appear to be ornamental (Taipei 101, roof of Jin Mao Building).

thanks for the bump of my memory. i've got a lot of 'real life' on my plate, right now, but i do want to do some measurements on some videos, and your reminder was good for reminding me.

and to cameron, do you know how to make a micro-processor, or would you say that that knowledge is beyond your ken?
if you DO know how, then, do you know what the difference in sound is between a purring honda engine from 1994, and one with a slight tick, and could you identify the problem from the sound?

they call it 'expert knowledge' for a reason. you or i not being able to design a new musical instrument that looks like a guitar, but sounds like a nine foot grand piano is not 'proof' that such an instrument is impossible to design and build.

Originally posted by billybob
i was just observing this same phenomena of freefalling debris on the outside of the building being passed by expulsions from within on a different video.
i'll see if i can make another illustrative pic. sometime this week, hopefully.

i guess that didn't happen.

crap.

sooooo busy. sorry, truth. i haven't retired, though. just on forced haitus.

and, here's my original picture, uploaded to the ATS media portal, so you can see it without leaving this page.