Can Muslims Be Good Americans???

sorry about the miss on the loving one name. everybody seems willing to defend islam but no one is claiming to be muslim...the topic is can muslims be good americans. no one seems to be tackling the subject of the destruction of america part which the mullah's are teaching but OH ya that's over there right

we all think it can't happen here untill the next attack then we,ll all be scratching our heads wondering how this happend AGAIN!!

[edit on 21-3-2006 by the_sentinal]

Originally posted by DrBones666

Did you know that Melbourne is the most succesful muliticultural city on Earth? Things like that make me Proud to be an Australian, and guess what, there are plenty of Muslims in Melbourne.

Plenty of Malaysians down there too

Most of my friends are there to further their studies... I'm so jealous I couldn't be there too (no cash). Boohoo!

I'm so ronery

well, I guess we have the same problems here in the UK. Muslims get born and raised in a beautiful, free multicultural society and have all the freedoms to do many many things their way, and suddenly: BOOM. They get on buses and tube trains and kill hundreds of innocent people for no reason what so ever.

Oh and lets not forget the RAF serviceman who refused to go to serve in Afghanistan or Iraq due to it being against 'His Muslim people'. I know its a small minority, but the rest didn't really raise much of a protest about it here in the UK, and yet when the cartoons were published...oh suddenly there were hundreds to go protest!?

The minority do want war, destruction and hatred, and will not cease till they get it - Quite a dilema really isn't it? Do you trust your 'moderate' muslim friends or neighbours, or do you have a small worry at the back of your mind that their sons/daughters will one day walk onto a bus / train and kill hundreds...???

Originally posted by DrBones666
Did you know that Melbourne is the most succesful muliticultural city on Earth? Things like that make me Proud to be an Australian, and guess what, there are plenty of Muslims in Melbourne.

The Europeans like the Danes and the Dutch used to be proud of their mulitcuturalism too but that changed and it will probably change in Australia as well when their numbers get larger.

As for whether muslims can be good Americans, perhaps the US should implement the changes in immigration policy that the Dutch are doing right now to help ensure that future muslim immigrants are compatible with the American way of life. Muslims upset at in-your-face lesson in Dutchness

as long as those changes don't involve cartoons huh.

Here's what I don't understand about the line of reasoning that is being expressed in this thread. We have several members stating they live amongst, work with, walk the streets beside communities of Muslims in their country and then that same poster will say something like "and then 7/7 happened and they blew up our buses". Well, they didn't did they? The people you live along side, work with and meet on the sidewalk are still there, feeding their children, doing their jobs and enjoying the same rare London sunshine, right? It was a handful of extremists - what four? five?

And on 9/11 it was 18? 19? So, I didn't see (in either case) the Muslim citizens of either country go, en masse - Holy Cow! Here's the jihad we've been waiting on! Let's rape, pillage and plunder! No, they just kept getting up every morning, going to work and feeding their children.

So my question is...why the paranoia over a group of people who aren't doing anything different than you except following a different form of religion, and have personally done nothing to make you second guess their value of their citizenship in their respective countries?

Originally posted by the_sentinal
no one seems to be tackling the subject of the destruction of america part which the mullah's are teaching but OH ya that over there right

It's simple. A true, educated muslim will see that as totally against the teachings of Islam. Only uneducated people who are just muslim in name (i.e. born to muslim parents) will be influenced by that kind of hate-speech.

Let me quote an example I gave on another thread:

Originally posted by Beachcoma here

Imagine you live in, say Indonesia (coz that's the easiest for me to personally visualize..). Your government's pretty crooked. It's getting better, but crooked is still crooked. Your life is deplorable. You have no prospects. Unemployement is close to 50% (it's true, that's why they look for employment in Malaysia). Education-wise you were lucky you finished high-school (most don't, better work on the farms/factories to help the family's financial situation) The situation appears hopeless.

And then you come in contact with a charismatic religious figure. He tells you stories about the afterlife (true or untrue I leave it up to you). You're thinking "My life is crap! Listening to this guy may not be such a bad idea. At least he can guide me in my preparations for the afterlife." And so you start listening to this imam. And it so happens this imam is one of the fundamental types. Whether that is by choice or whether it is because that's what this imam was taught, who can say? Now you just found religion. You become passionate about it (like all born-again people are). You hear another story about what appears to be more Western insensitivities (be it true or not, at this point it hardly matter). This further reinforces your believe in the fundamental teachings. And so you declare your vendetta against the West and all it stands for.

My point is, desperate and uneducated masses, no matter from what culture are dangerous. They are easily swayed.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of the dynamics involved.

Does this give you a clearer picture of how desperate people can be radicalized? People don't just go BOOM!. Desperate, radicalized people do.

Sorry beach but those that blew up buses and tubes here in UK were neither desperate or without hope. They were middle class so called respectable muslims ( One was a school teacher for goodness sake!) who took it upon themselves to cause pain and suffering to hundreds.

These people had ways to express their views without doing what they did. It was a disgusting cowardly attack on undefended civilians who just wanted to have a life just like those muslims. It was denied to them by people whom love death more than life ( As they stated in their speeches) who were fighting for Iraq and Afghanistan (as stated in their speeches) against the tyranny of the west (As stated in their speeches) who just happened to be born and raised within our free society.

Your argument makes no dice. These people had no need to do this at all.

They had money, they had affluence, they had good jobs, they had every thing that the west could offer. Then one day they went BOOM. I will always look at asians and blacks on trains with a slight fear and worry, because whos to say they wont do it again for some disgruntlement or other? because last time the nice moderates who knew never told any one it was going to happen....

Originally posted by Valhall
We have several members stating they live amongst, work with, walk the streets beside communities of Muslims in their country and then that same poster will say something like "and then 7/7 happened and they blew up our buses". Well, they didn't did they? The people you live along side, work with and meet on the sidewalk are still there, feeding their children, doing their jobs and enjoying the same rare London sunshine, right? It was a handful of extremists - what four? five?

It was only a handful of extremists who carried out the bombing but there were thousands of British muslims who felt the bombings were justified. That's not a good sign.

Post 7/7 British Opinion Surveys

# Muslims who see the 7/7 bombing attacks in London as justified on balance: 6 percent.
# Who feel sympathy for the "feelings and motives" of those who carried out the 7/7 attacks: 24 percent.
# Understand "why some people behave in that way": 56 percent.
# Disagree with Tony Blair's description of the ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous": 26 percent.
# Feel not loyal towards Britain: 16 percent.

and those 16 percent who have no loyalty to the UK should be offered one way flights to an islamic country of their choice, OR, a nice stay in gitmo to see what they know.

This country has areas (Bradford, Sheffield, Leeds,London,Oxford, Birmingham ect ect ect) Where the asians have made no go ghettos for any one bar thenselves - They don't like to intergrate, they dont want to intergrate, and yet have the nerve to complain about the fact that people don't understand them and don't mix with them??!!

No Im sorry, but I used to be very open minded to immigration and multicultural society, but now its just all gone wrong- We've all tried to welcome people to the UK, and had all the laws shoved on us if we didn't welcome all comers, but just look at the above statistics... its sickening to think that many have 'Sympathy' for killing and maiming innocent men women and children....

To threadstarter:

Tell that to the 15,000 American Muslims in the US Armed Forces and the several hundred that probally served or are serving in Iraq.


[edit on 21-3-2006 by shire19]

Originally posted by MadGreebo
They had money, they had affluence, they had good jobs, they had every thing that the west could offer. Then one day they went BOOM.

Things are not always as they appear. They also went to Pakistan and got radicalized by charismatic, fundamentalist imams. Prior to their trip to Pakistan they probably also got influenced by a radical and charismatic imam in Britain.

There are imams like that. Not all of them are radical, but some of them are. And some of the more psychopathic ones are very charismatic -- which is what most psychopaths are.

I would tend to agree on some (not all) of what you say. The only thing I caution you of is, that if you take this view, that you try and befriend a muslim and see if they are regular people of not for yourself. There is no teacher like experience. I know religion plays a great role in their lives but when I was in Kuwait and Saudi I met a great many people who were both respectful and hospitable.

Now to the meat of it. Can a muslim be American...yes. They can be but they do indeed need to make a decision if the religion they follow takes precidence and search the Quran to see if in fact what the Mullah is saying is contradicted by another verse. Most Muslims are like most Christians, in that they rarely read for themselves and blindly follow what another says is truth from the Book that is guiding their beliefs.

Will an American Muslim take sides...maybe. Look to Farakan (sp?). We tend to corrupt/divert the Islamic thinking with a lot of opportunity they never got in those other countries. A few will rebel and say we are decadent (sp?) then go off to Afghanistan to train to defeat the Capitalist/Christian idealogy by blowing themselves up, but by and large we already have a huge population of Muslims, peacful Muslims mind you, in this country. They haven't as yet united and marched on D.C. with explosive vest so I find it safe to presume innocence until such time as they act this way.

My personal take on the religion is that if Muslims actually read and picked apart the book, they'd find a lot wanting and find another religion. Compare it to the Catholic church, lots of ritual and subservience. Similar to Islam in many regards. People generally take comfort in those things, thinking it will soothe the soul. For a time it does. Then it becomes old habit and commonplace. At the end of the day it is like going to work.

Most of the crazies, though, are just more energetic and vehement (sp?) and emotional people who (again not reading for themselves) take things out of context and go off and do something they fill lead to do. If they weren't in that particular religion they'd prolly be involved in some other extremist type activity. I think it is the personality type and not so much the religion.

Jewish God--> Christian God ---> Islamic God.

Just add Holy Book and stir.

----

This is like saying can Buddists, Jews, et al be good American's. Can anyone who holds duel-citizenship?

The fact is, many Muslim's leave the Middle East because of how they were treated and they desire to live a life of "freedom". A small minority hate the United State's, however not all do. Otherwise the problem would be much larger.

This sort of hatred was/is, the trouble we have in the United Kingdom towards the Irish [still] and the trouble they have in the Middle East towards Israel [still]. It's an uneducated fear, based around this idea they're coming to "kill" us and take "our" land. The fact is, they're not and whoever claims Muslim's can't be friends with Non-Muslim's is an idiot. Many of my best friends are Muslim's and I am not one, in fact as I have pointed out before I was raised a Christian. Went to a Church of England School, along side Muslim's who prayed with us, who submitted to our God because they view him as one in the same.

Instead of juding these people, go and meet some and speak to them. Stop juding on what you desire to think, because in honesty you hold some level of hate over an action the majority of Muslim's didn't support.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
Can a devout muslim be an american patriot and a loyal citizen??

Yes. Of course they can.

A RADICAL muslim can't be. But then, neither can a RADICAL
Christian fundamentalist. But 'devout'?? Absolutely they can be.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
Can a devout muslim be an american patriot and a loyal citizen??
politcally, NO because he/she must submit to the mullah (spiritual leader)
who teach annihilation of isreal and the destruction of america

geographically, NO, because his/her allegiance is to mecca , where he/she turns and pray's to 5 times a day!

Intellectually, NO because he/she cannot accept the american constitution since it is based on biblical principals and they believe the bible to be corrupt.

Socially,NO because his/her allegiance to islam forbids them to make friends with christians or jews..

therefore prehaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.
they obviously cannot be both good muslims and good americans.

The war is bigger than we know!!!

Where in hell did you get this from? You people are sooo damn funny

Originally posted by Odium
Jewish God--> Christian God ---> Islamic God.

.




whoever claims Muslim's can't be friends with Non-Muslim's is an idiot. Many of my best friends are Muslim's and I am not one, in fact as I have pointed out before I was raised a Christian. Went to a Church of England School, along side Muslim's who prayed with us, who submitted to our God because they view him as one in the same.

.

the people who knew and lived around the london bombers could say the same things the thing that's what really gets me is the fact that moderate muslims say nothing publicly condemning the radicals.
it's almost like a silent approval

I've seen christians stand up and voice dissapproval when they think other christians are wrong why not the muslims???

[edit on 21-3-2006 by the_sentinal]

Originally posted by the_sentinal
the people who knew and lived around the london bombers could say the same things the thing that's what really gets me is the fact that moderate muslims say nothing publicly condemning the radicals.
it's almost like a silent approval

I've seen christians stand up and voice dissapproval when they think other christians are wrong why not the muslims???

[edit on 21-3-2006 by the_sentinal]

There are all forms of dissaproval in the Islamic world against terrorism, from governmental condemantion to Imams preaching peace to Muslims voicing their concern by taking the streets.. But obviously you wont see much of this on TV, the mainstream media does not want to report it as its not "paying the bills"..

American Muslims are for the most part, just that American. As patriotic or not as any Christian American. I would suggest going out and meeting some Muslims here in America, before painting with such a wide brush.

PS-No it wasn't-and no they aren't.

I will only echo everyone elses insistance that you go out and meet some Muslims. I have a couple really good friends who are devout Muslims. They dont hate me for my beliefs. They are proud to be Americans because they know if they had been raised anywhere else things could be much worse. My experience with Islam has been one of compassion and dedication. The Muslims I know are very respectful, polite, and of the utmost morality.

Stop generalizing and open your door to the world my friend. Life is too short to fear that which is unfamiliar. There is too much to learn on this planet in 25 lifetimes, much less one.