Originally posted by Produkt
It's not so much that I take that perspective, but god himself in the bible say's it is so! He make's many fine example's of commandment's for
mankind to follow and the punishment's that are to be done if one does not follow his commands.
Not so, the entire book is an act of grace extended to man. God knows that no man can get through the day without breaking at least one of his
commands, yet we are to do the best we can to try. It’s in the act of trying to fend off our worldly impulses and do as commanded that we show
obedience to God, this is part of being a repentant person that is sorry for the sins that they have committed.
Ok, you tell me then what percentage of the Bible is Grace and what is Law?
Originally posted by Produkt
Which god? You believe in the god you believe in thanks to the culture you live in. If you were raised in another country, you'd be believing in
another god as that's what you would've been taught. So, which god?
Well we are talking about Christianity so you guess. As too other religions, well it talks about them in the Bible itself, what does God say about
them in there?
There is an amount of predestination that exists in Christianity, so if someone is a person that God knows will have what it takes to stay by his side
through hell and high water, then he will ensure that that person finds him, no matter what culture he/she is born too. He will simply manipulate the
events around that person to ensure that they come to him.
Right now you seem to have a bone to pick with God, but someday, he may manipulate events to drive you to a point at which you will come to him. You
may say no way right now, but look a few posts up I think that
FattyP is saying he was once where you are now but has gained a different
perspective.
Could God have made you be the perfect Christian right out of the box, yeah he could have, but I feel you did not understand what I said at the end of
my last post. Of course you obviously did not take much time to really think about it with any depth anyway considering the speed with which you
reposted this book.
The point I was making is that God wants those that will come to him, not someone that is programmed to obey him like a robot, someone that comes of
their own free will. The more fire one has to walk through to come to him, the more refined and thus precious they are to him once they are there.
Originally posted by Produkt
Sounds like a scapegoat or a get out of hell free card. So your saying it doesn't matter if I were once a homicidal maniac, just so long as I repent
and ask for god's grace I won't have to pay for those sin's because our good man jesus did it for us? Is that the view the pedopriest's take?
It's ok so long as they ask for god's grace after each alter boy session?
Well the hard answer on this is both yes and no. It’s yes in that God will forgive even those priests, but they have to truly repent what it is they
have done. That does not mean that they just say a prayer and go right back to their previous lifestyle, it also does not mean that they will escape
earthly ramifications of their actions.
The absolute best example of this is the Thief on the cross next to Christ. He committed a crime, he paid the earthly cost in accordance with the law
for that crime, yet he truly repented and changed his heart. If he had not died, then God would have given him the strength to change his life, since
he obviously had true repentance. Since he died, he was forgiven and told that he would be with Christ that day in paradise.
Now last post you were blaming God for all sins and evil, now you want man to pay for their sins since they are responsible for them, so which is
it?
Originally posted by Produkt
Oh, so it's only for christians? So ... only christian's can commit sin without fear because as long as they ask the almighty for grace, they won't
have to pay for those sins because god had his son pay for them already ... ok... lol
The hard part of this is having a repentant heart. Believe me there are many who consider themselves Christians out there that are truly nothing more
then hypocrites. A truly repentant Christian is forgiven of their sins though when they ask for that forgiveness again that does not stop any
ramifications which may occur in this world due to their actions.
Originally posted by Produkt
Not afraid at all. You can't be afraid of a non existant diety who upholds imperfection on every level imaginable.
If this attack was not about being afraid, then what was it about, trolling?
Originally posted by Produkt
I don't view myself as a god at all, let alone worship myself. Or any other human being.
When you say that you could not be a Christian because you do not want to limit yourself, or what you can do, that smacks of worldly
self-centeredness. That is nothing more then making or worshiping yourself as a god in Gods eyes, you are to have nothing that you love more then you
love him. Therefore, by my standards the definition holds up.
Originally posted by Produkt
If christians did not fear what science is continually discovering, then why would they attack it? You are limiting yourself. Your limiting your
ability to learn. Many of the christians, even on this site, scoff at scientific discoveries. There's even one guy in here who goes out of his way to
post these thing's and then just say it's garbage without offering anything else lol. And the attack on christianity has been going on since before
it was even an official religion. Jewish people started it... which is odd seing as how jesus was a jew at the time.
I love science, and I find there are many studies that improve on my faith and do not conflict with what I believe in the slightest. I saw that you
have several other Christian Bashing threads out there, most are gong to only upset the hard core fundamentalists. I on the other hand have a bit more
of an open mind, though I do believe the infallibility of the Bible, I also understand that there are gaps and some translations that can have more
then one meaning within it.
Generally I do not post to those other threads simply because by the time I find them they have gone 700 pages in about an hour. By way of example
your thread on the dinosaurs, there is nothing that I can find that says that the world was only ever created once. Here look at this:
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the
waters.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
First thing is that the word here translated as “was” can also mean “became”. The Genesis verse is obviously creation, the Jeremiah verse is
talking about after the world’s destruction. There is nothing that says God could not have had things on this earth before the present world came
into existence, and wiped the slate clean before making the present word, thus the world or age in which your dinosaurs existed. It’s kind of funny
that this theory also jives well with several other ancient civilizations stories of things being here in a previous age or that the world is
destroyed every so many thousand years.
Other things like this that I find interesting and supportive of the Bible are the Theory that Noah’s flood was a more localized event caused by and
asteroid impact into an ocean, and the roundworm project that relates to the dramatic increase/decrease in life spans, just to name two more.
Originally posted by Produkt
Yes, I've learned that all too well from the history of christianity. All the violence it has spread since it's birth, using the name of god to
initiate holy wars or burn and drown innocent women claiming they were witch's.
There have been a few radical protestant groups that have done such things in the name of God, but the majority of these accusations go back to the
Roman Catholic Church and the Office of the Pope. From my studies in prophecy I have to relate them to the fourth beast in Daniel, the little horn,
the first beast in revelations, and the whore of Babylon. Their massacres against not only humanity but also against other Christians is well
documented in the Bible as being wrong and Anti-Christ, IMHO. Do a search on Historicism and you will se what I am talking about.
Originally posted by Produkt
Our concept of morality is from god isn't it? Well ... atleast for religous people. My concept of morality stems from plain simple common sense. I
don't need a book to tell me what's right and what's wrong. Your god gave you moral lesson's, commandments etc in the bible. You guy's follow ...
well some of it atleast. The rest you can't do because human law dictate's that it's wrong.
It may stem from God but we do not have Gods intelligence nor can we see things from his perspective. I find that one of the biggest issues with human
perspective is that things which we consider to be a big deal, God considers trivial, and some things that we consider trivial God considers a big
deal, for instance. You have to try and look at things from Gods perspective, though that is almost imposable to do.
Originally posted by Produkt
Bad analogy. Try this one on for size. If I bring a child into this world, is it wrong for me to destroy it or punish it in the same manerism that god
does to his creation?
In the very first chapter of the bible, god already tempted abraham, so yes, god does tempt.
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1
Yes it would be wrong for you to kill that child, because you did not create it, God did. You are comparing apples and oranges since you do not have
the power to create anything other then the physical shell of the child. You do not create it’s life spark, provide its soul, nor your anatomy that
allowed you to perform the act. A computer document is a better analogy since it is something that you can create more or less totally on your own.
Well at least beyond God giving you the ability to create it to begin with…
God TESTED Abraham, not tempted. God had no intention of having him go through with the act of sacrificing his son, he simply wanted to see if
Abrahams love for God was greater then his love for his son, so he let him go right up to the brink then pulled him back. Now again from a human
perspective that might sound a little on the bad side, but remember we are not to love anything more then we love God and the includes other people,
or you are making them into a god. To Tempt someone you have to lore them into doing something sinful with the intent that they are going to follow
through and if they do you would let them do it. God even allowed Satan to test job to such a point that his entire family died.
Originally posted by Produkt
If nothing existed BUT god to begin with, then how did evil exist if nothing but god existed? God knowingly created imperfect being's that he knew
would commit sin which he clearly state's he does not like. So by what logic was god applying when he created something so imperfect to do exactly
what he didn't like?
You are thinking of evil like it’s a thing, it not, it’s the lack of a thing. It is a lack of God. Again that which is not of God is evil.
As to the Satan question. There is a reason I was being a bit ambiguous, mainly because some of what I have read on the subject came from some of
those works left out of the bible, and they therefore lack the same level of veracity. Though they seem to expand upon what is written in the earlier
books and further explain some things. There are even some parts of those books that are quoted in the bible itself. So without my having to rehash
the books, let’s just take a walk of logic for a second.
God could have easily made us with no free will, so we would follow whatever he said, right? Yet he chose to not do that. So for some reason it is
important to God that we have free will.
God could easily let his presence be know to every person on the earth and that he is God, yet he doesn’t, why? For some reason it is important that
we take a leap of faith against everything here that is fleshly and worldly to follow him based solely on faith.
Anyone that walked through the purifying fire would be precious to God.
Did God extend the same offer of salvation through grace to the third of the angels that rebelled with Satan? No, there is none mentioned in the
Bible, and it is specifically mentioned in the Pseudopigrapha that this is one reason that the fallen angels hate us so much.
Are we higher or lower then the Angels in the hierarchy of things? Higher, we are made in the image of God himself.
What was it that made Satan fall? Pride, he wanted to be on the same level or higher then God.
What was it that made man fall? Wishing to learn the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Law), to be as God.
Based just on that I can think of at least two reasons why God would still create Satan, even though he knew what he would do.
