No child left behind: THE TEST (USA)

No... the original poster meant to say just what he said... class seperation based upon one sole question out of many.

Did you fail to comprehend this sentance?

I mean seriously this is showing that this TEST is a test of ecconomic class, and NOT education

If a child can't comprehend what he/she is reading despite the fact if they know or don't know the answer then they should not graduate to the next grade as the whole damn point of reading comprehension is if you can deduce the answer to the question with the given clue's in the content of the text. If they can not grasp this then they need furthur education until they do. THIS IS THE POINT OF THE TEST. To see who is LEARNING.

And that's with definition aside. Can you comprehend this? Or do I need to find a four year old to help me dumb it down some more?

no child left behind==== no child left unregistered, no child left behind to be recruited/drafted later, no child that doesn't get the chip...

No the argument wasn't legitimate as the whole argument was based on one god damn question about tennis and only those who knew about tennis would get it right.

Dude, you have demonstrated an inability to argue for yourself, so with that in mind, how about keep your grimey hands off the arguments of other people, K?

Again, another commentor who fail's to understand what reading comprehension is. Christ I even posted the damn definition.

I'm pretty sure I know what reading comprehension is, considering my level of education. The argument is whether or not certain kids are advantaged by such questions. The answer is yes. Your definition is irrelevant and unnecessary. We all know what the words mean.

The issue raised was one of bias in standardized test questions. If you had any background in education you might realize that this debate has been going on for quite some time, and only recently has progress been made in realizing a level playing field. The number of 'bad' questions is shrinking, but this tennis one is certainly a prime example.

Let's say it together. READING COMPREHENSION

Your condescending jabs are childish and sad, especially considering the audience you're speaking to. I'd wager Sofi and I have more years in school between us than you have teeth in your jaw. Questioning our intelligence is no way to win an argument.

"The year 1999 was a big one for the Williams sisters. In February, Serena
won her first pro singles championship. In March, the sisters met for the
first time in a tournament final. Venus won. And at doubles tennis, the
Williams girls could not seem to lose that year."

"The story says that in 1999, the sisters could not seem to lose at doubles
tennis. This probably means when they played

"A two matches in one day
"B against each other
"C with two balls at once
"D as partners"

This question has nothing to do with reading comprehension at all. Reading comprehension is how well you deduce from a passage but in this case, the passage does not explain how doubles tennis works (answer D), the rules of tennis (answer B), Tournament setup (Answer A) or how many balls tennis is played with. (answer c).

Instead the question DOES rely on outside knowledge, quite distinctly separate from the passage in order for one to deduce the answer.

In order for one to answer the question, the person must not only rationalize the statement but also add external prior knowlege to come to a conclusion.

This is wrong and is not an honest reading comprehension. Instead it is a general knowledge and comprehension question.

If the question had been
Out of the William's sisters, who was the winner of their first ever tennis tournament final's match against each other.

A) Serena
B) Mercury
C) Selina
D) Venus

Answer D

Then it is reading comprehension, because this is actually addressed in the passage and does not require any external forces when answering the question.








[edit on 14-1-2006 by Mayet]

In February, Serena won her first pro singles championship.

Ok.. example 1: Serena played alone.

In March, the sisters met for the first time in a tournament final. Venus won.

Ok.. example 2: Sound's to me like they played against each other, and Venus won the match.

And at doubles tennis, the Williams girls could not seem to lose that year.

Ok.. example 3: Let's go through the answer's.

A two matches in one day - doesn't fit with the text. Reread the how each match went.

B against each other - most likely not the answer, it was already described in the text.

C with two balls at once - doesn't fit with the text. Reread how each match went.

D as partners - This is the only answer left that could probably be the answer based upon the example's of the other two match's given.

This is comming from someone who doesn't know anything about tennis. Doesn't like nor follow any sport activity. And who fully comprehend's what reading comprehension entail's. Case closed. Good night. And have fun arguing the same closed argument you've been arguing despite the question i raised of if the topic were something different ... blah blah, I know, in one ear out the other. Good luck in school.

Some people think that children in the USA are purposely 'getting left behind'. Keep kids ignorant, so that their only option is to join the military, since they aren't prepared for college (a reason as well to keep the poor, um, poor) or the workforce.

f the question had been
Out of the William's sisters, who was the winner of their first ever tennis tournament final's match against each other.

A) Serena
B) Mercury
C) Selina
D) Venus

Answer D

Then it is reading comprehension, because this is actually addressed in the passage and does not require any external forces when answering the question.

Wrong and right. The answer was already given in the content of the text. But, there's still the whole concept of grasping the meaning of something you just may not know the answer to or may not be immediatly obvious from the given text. That is still reading comprehension. If you comprehended the prior example's given in the text, then it isn't too hard to determine the answer at all. Reread the definition I posted on page 1.

[edit on 14-1-2006 by Produkt]

I comprehend that there is too much attitude being flung around in this thread that needs some chilling.

Originally posted by intrepid
I comprehend that there is too much attitude being flung around in this thread that needs some chilling.

Ill agree (sorry for one-liner)

Okay, first....the original question that this entire argument is about is of course a sample question from a PRACTICE TEST.

Now here is a link to the practice test for grades 3-8 in the state of New York.

www.emsc.nysed.gov...

Okay, now I might not be able to compare the question...but i see nothing similar at all to the question the author of the article used as his examples. Granted, they change year to year, however, the basic idea and level of the problems are not even similar.

The first link was the English Language Arts section, and here is the math section:

www.emsc.nysed.gov...

Back to the English Language arts section. The first question involves a story called Sandstorm. I am not going to go into details, there are the links, if you want to read it go for it. So, taking the same argument used against the "doubles tennis" question, which seems to come from somehwere else when comparing with this sample test, but yeah so taking the same argument used against the doubles tennis question I can easily say, that some foreign student that lived in say Iraq and moved here would have a better chance of answering that question then someone from America, or I guess someone that lived in the middle of the desert even in America.

The point is, is that you can twist any question, and say that somebody has an advantage at the question over another group of people. The writer Greg Palast is simply using his "position" to push what he believes. He knows some people are going to read this and say OMG WTF MATE(got that off my favorite clip from ebaumsworld.com, its called the end of the world, yall should really check it out..haha), but yeah, more power to him if he can do that, but i see no evidence of his argument. First he used questions for the article from a "practice test" the EIGHT YEAR OLDS took, now lets see if any of you noticed this. My comparison wasnt for 8 year olds but for 8th graders. So now, lets go back to the grade an EIGHT YEAR OLD would be in, 2nd-3rd.

NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT HE USED AS AN EXAMPLE, NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME LEVEL. The first main to questions are about awww.....A Winter Surprise, and the next one about A Long Winters Nap..and then comes My Favorite Sweather, and You Can Make A Windsock. Okay so what about the kids that dont experience a real winter, all those poor kids down in south florida, they are just left out because they don't know what real qinter is all about. Ohhhh and then what about the kids that already know how to make a Windsock...OMG..that is a travesty becuase they already know how to do it, this just isnt right...WE HAVE GOT TO GET THEM TO CHANGE THAT QUESTION. haha...so yeah....I think Greg Palast just used his position to spat BS against the President.

The test's do not seperate lower class from upper class.
The kid's & their partent's do that fine without government testing.
Poor kid's tend to have a lousy home environment, that has more to
do with their learning ability.
Bad diets, no structure, many times broken homes

There is no perfect testing, The questions are generic made by geeks.
The system needs improving not sent to the scrap pile.

The poor kids are less likely to go to college because of lack of funds,
Not because of lack of learning ability. Do you think poor kids should
get funding for college? Not me! I paid for ten years on my loan.


The local high school boasts that 40% of grads go on to college.
They don't tell you that most drop out during their first year.
Not all kids should go to college.

Originally posted by ajm4481

Okay so what about the kids that dont experience a real winter, all those poor kids down in south florida, they are just left out because they don't know what real qinter is all about.

It has snowed in South Florida. And it does quite cold (almost to the negatives in some cases), but that's not the point.

The point is, what the hell is a windsock? Wait, that's not it either.

Ok...the point is, they should have MADE UP a game, that nobody knows about, that doesn't use TERMINOLOGY from another sport/game. Then it would have been even.

Here's one important point. The school should make sure the students did study something about "doubles" in Tennis before a test is given on it. If not, they are relying on external knowlege outside of the courseroom for the question.

A note on context clues. Context clues should only be used to choose from a list of definitions, in a dictionary, to find the appropriate definition. Context clues should not be used to "manufacture" or "create" a definition, because you may not come up with an accurate definition. That might not seem like a big deal, but think about every time a person hears this word. He thinks it means one thing, but it may mean something else. And to add to that, context clues could point to numerous possibilities, especially if the student doesn't have a clue as to what the word means. So he's left with a confusion if he doesn't look the word up. Now, add in all the words he/she hears in a lifetime, and you have a lot of confusion. He could ask a friend or a teacher for the definition, but that's second hand knowlege, and there is no guarantee the friend or teacher has an accurate definition, or even a definition that is even partially correct.

Illiteracy can be very damaging to a person. How many illiterate people do you know who are living the great life?

Anyway, in order for tests to be fair, they must stay on the topics that the student has actually studied in school.

Troy

Here in N.Z we have Years not Grades and though it(the Test) may seem like a way to create class division etc I don't think it is. Just because the kids may be poor doesn't necessarily mean they're stupid. My family isn't too rich and I'm top of the class. And I agree about the foreign students. Unlike most predominantly white students here they genuinely want to succeed.

I'll agree with that, being poor doesn't make a person stupid. A poor person can fill himself with knowlege just like any other person.

A poor man can pull himself up and achieve great things. Education should not be reserved for only those who were born with silver spoons in their mouths. Everyone should get the opportunity to better themselves.

Troy

Your education system is, and has been for many years, deliberately under funded purely so that eventually the idea of privatisation of education doesn't seem so bad.

It's that simple.

There is absolutely no reason for the richest country in the world to have such an abysmal educational system.

Wait for the supposed cure; because this is what you’re eventually going to be fed in sheeps clothing:

Maps courtesy of Exxon Mobil, educational videos indispersed with juvenile targeted adverts, school books sponsored by Coca Cola, Pepsi and every other manufacturer chasing the ‘pester dollar’. Math problems like "Johnny has eight Chicken McNuggets, if he eats three how many Chicken McNuggets does Johnny have left?" and lunch vouchers offering two for one double cheese burgers.

But by that point, hey, who cares! I’ll pay less! Will be the cry.




Your kid will pay a hell of a lot more.




I don't mean to be patronising. The exact same is being tried in the UK, the only difference is the time it will take.

bump.
I think its worthwhile..................this is not some self promoting bump.

Originally posted by Produkt
what if the question was about footbal, baseball, basketball, mating rituals of the dung beetle, astronomy, sex, how beer is made, etc...

The problem is that most of the rich kids would know the answer to the tennis question without even having to read the snippit. This is not fair to those who don't know the answer off hand. Now football, baseball, and basketball would be ok as long as it was general, and not something about a specific term. Otherwise the athelets would have the advantage like the rich kids did. Astronomy would be another topic to ask a question on. Sex and beer are way too adult in nature.

The perfect question subject would be about the dung beetle. We wouldn't want to go into the mating habits. The dung beetle would be a leveler, since I seriously doubt any third graders would have even heard of the dung beetle whether they were rich or poor. All the kids would have to read the question and have to deduce the answer.

To be fair, the question really has to be centered around a subject that most of the children wouldn't know about in the first place.

As a side note, how many here remember the TV show Different strokes? I remember there was an epsoide that dealt with this exact same subject, which was a test not being fair. I remember the dad wanted to place the boys in the school he went to when he was younger. The school was hell bent on not letting the boys in because they were black. They constructed a test that basically only rich white boys would be able to pass.

Ah yes that was their names, when Willis and Arnold told thier adopted white dad about the test, the dad got fourious. Because he was an important alumni, he got the dean of the school over to the apartment. They basically had a nice arguement. I remember the dean finally agreeing to take a test the boys made up to prove his point that the test he gave Willis and Arnold was fair. It was harilous, the dean failed each of the boys questions. When asked what were three different types of blues, the dean started rambling off colors. The boys said wrong, and told him three different types of blues as in music genera.

Needless to say the dean gave a fairer test to the boys, and the boys were admitted to the school.

Biased tests already have been given in the past, and will be given in the future for various reasons. It is a shame that they would now seem be given at the national level. Before accusations could really be made, the rest of the test questions would need to be looked at as well to see if the test as a whole is biased in that way. Otherwise two questions out of how many really should not make that much of a difference.

If it could be determined that the entire test was biased towards the rich kids, then there should be hell and high water to be paid by the person that made the test and the administrators that saw fit to give such a biased test. I'm sure the reasons for giving such a biased test on a national level are not good at all, and would greatly agree with the original poster.