Taiwan would be a far cry from the traditional "The US can't win a war" example of Vietnam. Vietnam was as much a counter insurgency effort as conventional war, and was fought on the mainland with a VERY long border with a sympathetic nation. Even so, the insurgency was effectively elliminated during thier grand last hoorah, as the Tet offensive wasted all of thier remaining members. (Though was played on the news as a US loss, due to two men geting shot inside the embasy fence)

In the case of Taiwan, all but a few individuals would gladly throw the invading communists out, and there is a signifigant body of water preventing infiltration. Also, one must consider the very basic differences in Tiwaneese and Vietnameese society and government. Taiwan will fight to stay independant.

Traveller, The whole piont about it being similar to Vietnam is that the American public will not support such a war.

Have you not learned nothing from Vietnam? When the will of the people is not there, the war shant be won.


Another thing, there is no comparison of the Vietnamese & Chinese forces back then to how the Chinese military is right now. The Chinese military now has improved beyond comparison to that decades ago.

True, they've improved. But I do get tired of hearing "oh, it'll be another Vietnam, and well lose because the American public won't support such a war". Look at the first Gulf War. A tiny kingdom halfway around the world was invaded, and with the exception of a handful of protestors, no one seemed to have a problem with defending a small country from an aggressive neighbor. Certain wars we WILL get into, because it's the right thing to do.

Originally posted by Travellar

Look at the first Gulf War. A tiny kingdom halfway around the world was invaded, and with the exception of a handful of protestors, no one seemed to have a problem with defending a small country from an aggressive neighbor.

Traveller, DO NOT even compare the China and Taiwan situation with the Iraq and Kuwait conflict. First of all, it is two VERY, VERY different situations. Even hardliners against the PRC would agree to that.

Second of all, that war that you are talking about is UNCOMPARABLE to a war against China. You know that. That war lasted less than a few months with barely any American casualties. Do you think a war against China would be the same?

Originally posted by Travellar
Certain wars we WILL get into, because it's the right thing to do.

The right thing to do? Do you honestly think the United States is defending Taiwan soley because the U.S. wants to spread democracy and freedom to the people in Taiwan? Read "A people's history of the United States" by Howard Zinn. Read the chapter on the war against Vietnam. Let me "enlighten you" on the truth about Vietnam:

When the French left Vietnam, Vietnam split into two sides, the north and south. It was INTERNATIONALLY agreed that after two years, the Vietnamese WOULD VOTE for their own government and reunite as one nation. After two years came by, the Northern Vietnamese REQUESTED the voting begin, but the U.S. kept blocking it. Then, the U.S. illegally sent much more military advisers than allowed by the international convention.

Spread freedom and democracy? Don't think so.





[edit on 23-1-2006 by k4rupt]

I've been reading alot of argument about whether or not this will be another Vietnam if it were to occur. The following is simply some thoughts of mine from the info that I've garnered as a nerd.

One reason for the American populace not supporting the Vietnam war was the irresponsible coverage by the US media. The Tet offfensive was a military disaster for the Viet Cong who lost somewhere around 75% of their deployable forces during those series of battles.
Also consider this I just read from the book "Unheralded Victory" by an offcier of the Vietnam war, sorry, I didn't purchase the book, just read it in the store so I don't know the guys name.
Anyway, the North Vietnamese were engaged in a psychological warfare program called Dich-Van which included the infiltration of Communists agents into America to spread disinformation about the war to the American press.
Remember, North Vietnam was a client state of the USSR, an outspoken enemy of the United States, the Vietnam war did not exist in a vacuum. And unfortunately the Russians and the Vietnamese were better at Psy-ops than were the west. Just my opinion but I honestly beleive that much of the anti--American sentiment which exists in todays media is the renants of the Dich-Van program.
THe main protests to the war centered on College campuses and among the youth who attended them. Alot of these professors were liberals and even Communists! While it was no longer a crime to be a Communist after the fiasco with Joe McCarthy, it makes the Vietnam war protests and the slanted coverage of the war by the US media, to me at least, very suspect.

Now as far as this whole WWIII thing with China goes.... Let me think about it and I'll post later. This is a huge topic to try and digest.

SpecAgent... you have read one funny book.

Go read "A People's history of the United States" by Howard Zinn. The war was not supported because (if you read more info about the war from different sources) it was a ridiculous war for the U.S. to get into, the way the U.S. got into it, and the reasons for fighting it. But seriously go grab that book I mentioned and read the chapter on Vietnam, you will realize a lot more than you ever imagined that this country could of possible done.

I wrote some of the main points down from the book.


"It was agreed that the French would temporarily withdraw into the s. part of Vietnam, that the Vietminh would remain in the north, and that an election would take place in two years in a unified Vietnam to enable the Vietnamese to choose their own government. The United States moved quickly to prevent the unification and establish S. Vietnam as an American sphere."
"Diem (The American backed S. Vietnamese gov't) blocked the electiosn requested by the Vietminh, and with American money and arms his government became more and more firmly established. "

"In early August 1964, President Johnson used a murky set of events in the Gulf of Tonkin to launch fullscale war on Vietnam. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara said, 'the U.S. destroyer Madddox underwent an unprovoked attack.' It later turned out that the Gulf of Tonkin episode was a fake... "

"The Tonkin 'attack' brought a congressional resolution.... giving Johnson the power to take military action as he saw fit in Southeast Asia."

"Under the Geneva Accords, the United States was permited to have 685 military advisers in southern Vietnam. Eisenhower secretly sent several thousand."

"Large areas of South Vietnam were declared 'free fire zones', which meant that all persons remaining within them - civilians, old people, children - were considered an enemy, and bombs were dropped at will..."

"The CIA in Vietnam, in a program called 'Operation Phoenix' secretly, without trial, executed at least twenty thousand civilians in S. Vietnam who were suspected of being members of the Communist underground. "

------------------------------------------

As you can see, the TRUTH is what made the Vietnam war so unpopular.



[edit on 25-1-2006 by k4rupt]

As far as Operation Phoenix and what not, I'm not so sure if I beleive it. Its one thing to simply rant and rave about the Vietnam war beign an American conspiracy, I think JFK was killed for the war to go ahead.
But, to be intellectually honest, we weren't the only bully on the block with a huge stake in Viet Nam
The other guys would be the Soviet Union, and although I give all of you guys the benefit of the doubt, I think its pretty obvious that if you read something that only slams the American side...Chances are it might be retroactive Communist propaganda in the form of liberal academics.

As far as the whole WWIII scenario goes....
Communism dies in China within several years, Nationalism (Fascism) takes its place.
Despite a free market and the semblance of democracy, China is a Nazi Germany style government, building a gigantic, very well equipped and led military machine for one purpose and one purpose only, global conquest.

Mainland agents create a crisis in Taiwan that leads to the Chinese creating a region wide news blackout by jamming Western Satellites.
With the US still preoccupied in the MidEast, we are powerless to stop the Chinese seige of Taiwan. Taiwan, not wanting to suffer enormous losses and without Western aid surrenders.
India, Pakistan and Iran join a military alliance with China.

A year after the Taiwan incident, Chinese subs launch Operation Manifest Destiny by sinking two US Carriers in the Persian Gulf, Chinese ground forces slam into Korea (Which may or may not be unified by now.)
Japanese and US forces rush to help Korea, but the Chinese juggernaut is unstoppable, within 90 days the Korean peninsula is in the hands of China.

Chinese Marine and Special Forces defeat Japan to seize the Ryuku island chain.
Ground based anti nuclear missile laser defense systems began piucking off western imaging and communications satellites, fog of war returns to the battlefield.
Afghanistan is swiftly overrun. Alliance forces build up In Iran.
Chinese agents launch silent coup of their allies nations governments and replkace them with puppet governments.
Russia remains neutral but gaurded. US and European forces mass in Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Ariabia as do Islamic Federation forces.
The battle for the worlds oil supplies begin.
In the process, the Chinese began progroms of imprisonment and eventual extermination of any and all undesireables. (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, anyone opposed to China)
As the titanic battles rage inthe desert and hundreds of thousands are slaughtered, Chinese Alliance forces sweep into forgotten SOuth East Asia, Thailand, Burma, malaysia, Indonesia. Japan signs peace treaty with China.

(US or Japanese or even Austrailian forces probably wouldn't fight for SOuth East Asia and the others due to the focus on the worlds Oil supply.
)




After months of bitter fighting, the joint American, European, Islamic forces are routed in the desert. Isreal makes a defiant stand and destroys two Chinese field armies crossing the Golan heights via tactical nuclear weapons.
China responds by nuking Tel Aviv, Isreal surrenders.
China halts its advance at the Suez Canal.
China is the worlds true superpower.

Okay, okay, okay, I know this purely hypothetical, its just my vision of how WWIII might go. I don't think it will, but you never know.

SpecAgent... you can't honestly believe that all the anti-war movement was due because of "communist infiltration in the American media posing as liberals"... If you don't believe in Operation Phoenix, hey thats your opinion, but the info I gave you are accurate and true.

It is true about those "free fire zones" where women and children were killed. It is true that there were innocent were thrown into ditches and massacred. It is true that the third highest American official lied to the American public about the reason for going into war ( the tonkin incident). Because of that lie, the president was given UNCONSTITUTIONAL powers to begin the war. The American public KNEW that the U.S. had no reason in being in Vietnam and that their sons and daughters were dying there for no reason.

SpecAgent, I believe THAT is the reason why there were so much anti-war movements... NOT because of some communist infiltration in the American media...



Secondly, that scenerio about China taking over the world... it'd make a great movie... but in reality, that would completely be utterly impossible. Why would Israel + Islamic nations fight against China?



[edit on 26-1-2006 by k4rupt]

k4rupt, I'm not really trying to slam you as a liberal or anything or paint me as some mega neo con, I'm just not SURE about my beleifs in this arena as of yet.
Like I said, I give you the benefit of the doubt because everything I have "Learned" over the years points to your side beign either only partially right or Communist propaganda.
As far as Isreal and the Muslims fighting together, I didn't really say they would, Isreal would hold back like they did in Gulf War 1 and then sigh exasperatedly as the Chinese forces eventually stomped the hell out of the west and Islamic Feds.
I Put the Islamic Fed up against China because they stand to lose everything. China has always been extremely hostile to Islam, possibly even more so than to Christianity (Funny side note, China hates Christianity and islam yet has a military research partnership with Isreal, weird huh) and also China is advancing into the mideast for one reason and one reason only, the control of the world oil.
The Arab aristocracies and their business conglomerates make huge profits off the Wests greed for their oil, with China in charge they know they won't seea dime. Its an issue of self interest.
Then again they may fight with Isreal if its an all or nothing state.
Then again, its just pure hypothesis.

But a damned fun one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One more thing before I forget.
Nobody wants to see their children or friends or spouse or whoever go off to war.
Its terribly sad that the world exists with such violence (Strange to hear that coming form a pro-wrestling student, my craft IS controlled violence)
And to be honest, every one fo our wars has a conspiratorial element to it.

The Revolution: Some say it was a means to creat a nation of Freemasonry.
Or to expand the free market and boost the British economy by staging a small scale war to girder up support for the crown and to boost the war economy. (Which was beginning to develope by that period.
1812: A blatant act of agression on our part to conquer Canada that led to the British nearly completely whipping our asses into the dirt.
Mexico (1840's): Another blatant act of aggression to expand the territories of the US.
War between the States: A prime example of taxation without proper representation. The SOuth had to shoulder 80% of the nations tarrif burden with only 25% of the population.
And the list goes on.
If we were to enter a WWIII scenario with China or anyone else, I'm sure, somewhere down the road, someone would uncover a conspiratorial thread to it. Every government is in business for one thing and one thing only: Power and the acquisituion of more of it.

Spec, In fact, I am a pretty hardcore conservative.

Not to sound too liberal, but again I honestly think the Vietnam war was a huge mistake. I fully stand behind the president and the decision he chose to go into Iraq, but Vietnam (and currently China) was/is a totally different case.



Now, I do not support the Vietnam war, but please don't think I'm a liberal... It hurts my feelings

[edit on 27-1-2006 by k4rupt]

Sorry k4rupt if I offended. I'm a conservative myself, just a little out of the loop on certain things (not enough reading time anymore).
I always thought the Vietna war was a scam by the defense industries to make billions.
I don't think they counted on the fighting abilities of the pajama clad VC or the NVA regulars.
Sadly enough I had a cousin in the Marines who lost the use of his legs in Nam. Only met him a few times though.

Putin the "reformer" admits he personally never left the Communist Party. A keen-eyed observer of the CNN TV report on the December, 1999 Russian parliamentary elections spotted Putin presenting his I.D. to the clerk so he could vote. The I.D. clearly showed the letters CCCP (USSR) on the inside of the booklet -- his official Soviet Union Communist Party ID. The authoritative British journal, "Soviet Analyst" commented that CNN ignored this "curiosity."

AS FOR THE "POLITICAL" PARTIES" WHICH HAVE ARISEN IN RUSSIA SINCE THE "FALL OF COMMUNISM", THEY ARE ALL FRONT GROUPS SET UP AND CONTROLLED BY THE CPSU (COMMUNIST PARTY SOVIET UNION), AS CONFIRMED IN POLITICAL AFFAIRS, THE JOURNAL OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES. (OCT-NOV '94 ISSUE).

Originally posted by k4rupt
Like I said before, the U.S. would not even be involved if China plays it's cards right. If the U.S. DOES decide to go ahead with it, it would be Vietnam all over again. This war CANNOT be won without the support of the American public.

[edit on 13-1-2006 by k4rupt]

I agree, you are only as strong as your weekest link and right now the US' weakest link is their public support.
What hasn't been mentioned is that the US has a minority of it's military committed over seas already, if the US decides to strike either Iran or North Korea it could easily have over half of its total force already committed. So if it does invade one of the two, China could step in at that time take over Taiwan since the US would have few if any short term answers.

On one hand the US can not afford to over commit its troops in battle, we don't have many friends right now and we would probably have even fewer if it appeared as if we were losing. On the other hand the US can not afford to let Iran get Nuclear Weapons, so it must strike regardless of consequence. My guess is it will be a surgical strikes much like we saw in the "shock and aww" approach with Gulf War 2. There would be a ground invasion initially hopefully it is mostly limited to special force groups instead of heavy metal such as tanks with supply chains.

If we do invade, I foresee a 50/50 chance China simultaneously attacks Taiwan, if it wants it enough, it will take it.

I still think the reason why the US is overextended in the Middle East right now is China. I think the US feels China still has the potential to be its next USSR and should handle it accordingly. By that I mean the carrot and stick approach, which is rewarding good behaviour and disciplining bad behaviour, in this context good is pro-democratic and bad is anti-democratic/anti-American Business. Thus, today the Middle East are China's satellites as was Eastern Europe after WW2 to the USSR.

While I understand right now China doesn't have the capabilities to fight a war toe to toe with the US, if China wanted to take Taiwan with its current military I think it probably could. Even if their attempt failed they still would probably not see a counter attack due to the sheer size of the country. Who wants to piss off a bees hive with 1.2 billion bees?
Where am I wrong?

[edit on 29-1-2007 by Low Orbit]

>>if the US decides to strike either Iran or North Korea it could easily have over half of its total force already committed.<<


We have support (logistically at least) from at least 75%, (which would be a conservative estimate), of the Arab world with bases in several Middle Eastern countries including Kuwait, Saudi, Oman, Qatar, the UAE, and more, in which real world (OIF/OEF) operations are staged. There is no doubt right now what our stance is. If Iran continues to threaten peace an airstrike against them would be a quick and decisive move, and though I have no doubt that our Middle Eastern allies would continue to support us, I wonder what it would take for us to go after Iran. With the Dems in the majority in both houses of Congress it may take a lot, historically the Republicans have been quick to pull the trigger, both a good thing and a bad thing. My opinion, however, is that I hope we don't have to engage Iran. And as far as China is concerned, our "good" relations with each other at the current time are not going to deteriorate anytime soon.

Jeff

Originally posted by k4rupt
The right thing to do? Do you honestly think the United States is defending Taiwan soley because the U.S. wants to spread democracy and freedom to the people in Taiwan? Read "A people's history of the United States" by Howard Zinn. Read the chapter on the war against Vietnam. Let me "enlighten you" on the truth about Vietnam:

When the French left Vietnam, Vietnam split into two sides, the north and south. It was INTERNATIONALLY agreed that after two years, the Vietnamese WOULD VOTE for their own government and reunite as one nation. After two years came by, the Northern Vietnamese REQUESTED the voting begin, but the U.S. kept blocking it. Then, the U.S. illegally sent much more military advisers than allowed by the international convention.

Spread freedom and democracy? Don't think so.

[edit on 23-1-2006 by k4rupt]

I think most American are truely blinded by their government.
And why should the world accept democracy? If you like eating Pizza, you don't force everybody to eat Pizza.


Taiwan vs China

They can unite anytime they want, but at the moment they don't want!!!
They are playing a game on American, everybody knows American are trying hard to create a turmoil to China through Taiwan issue and human rights issue.
If American has to go to war against China, then the only reason they got is using Taiwan issue, or else the world is not supporting American.

Anyway if those 2 giants go to war, nobody is helping them, people better choose to wait and see. If China loose then the rest will support American, if American loose then the world will support China.
Let them fight, and take advantage from them after that.

Yuri Maltsev, former senior adviser to Mikhail Gorbachev spilled the beans: "Russia has become the criminal capital of the world. In Russia today, the organized Mafia and the government are one and the same thing. They're two hands of the same ruling elite." This state of affairs began with the founding of the Soviet state. "The Soviet state security apparatus was essentially staffed by criminals collected from Russian prisons . . . In short, you had a criminal state using criminals to enforce what it called the law."

Originally posted by Fennie
Yuri Maltsev, former senior adviser to Mikhail Gorbachev spilled the beans: "Russia has become the criminal capital of the world. In Russia today, the organized Mafia and the government are one and the same thing. They're two hands of the same ruling elite." This state of affairs began with the founding of the Soviet state. "The Soviet state security apparatus was essentially staffed by criminals collected from Russian prisons . . . In short, you had a criminal state using criminals to enforce what it called the law."

That's what I heard too, prostitution, drugs, illegal gambling.
Don't walk alone at night in Moscow. Especially women or couples.
The Moscow police are very bad. Be careful when they stop you and interrogate you. They will check your wallet and take away your cash.

Anyway those bad thing were not happening or not that common during communism era.
It started turn to bad only after democracy, freedom. People are free to be gangster and mafia right?