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My personal case against the Brotherhood...

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posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by stalkingwolf
What proof do you have that what you were told was infact true, and that these 2 individuals were not "reading you like a book and engaging inthe age old sport chain jerking?


I highly doubt masons,especially one whom I am friends with,would purposely provide disinfo that would hurt their organization.




posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 06:38 AM
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Right Ok, sure.

Say would you be interested in a beach front condo in Phoenix?



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 07:43 AM
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It amazes me how much people hate the freemasons and jump to conclusions about them here.
Its said quite a bit that the lower level masons know nothing about whats really going on, and sometimes its also said that people reach 32nd and 33rd degree and still have no idea what the real deal is.
Im pretty sure the majority of freemasons out there are Master Masons due to a lot of people just wanting to get in and find out whats up rather than dedicating time to stufying freemasonry, and if thats the case, wouldnt most members still be in the dark about what Freemasons are up to? And if the majority is in the dark, wouldnt that mean most masons arent responsible for the things you guys complain about on here? Judging a large group based on what the minority does is prejudice. Im sure most of you guys here are intelligent enough that you wouldnt assume that all black people are criminals, or that all mexicans are illegal immigrants.
I dont post much, but man, I cant believe how everyone comes down on Freemasons for trying to ruin the world. Sure there are bad apples, but thats a very small crosssection of most groups. Not just Freemasons.

[edit on 27-12-2005 by Taskism]



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken

I'm telling you two personal stories of my own involving Freemasons whom I am friends with accompanied with my analysis.


Just a point here: you accuse we Masons of "disinformation", yet we are expected to believe your anonymous ancedote unquestioningly. If you truly want to "debate", as you claim, then please keep it to topics that can be independently verified.


So my first point is: In a supposed free and democratic society THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY INDIVIDUALS IN POSITIONS OF POWER THAT BELONG TO SECRET SOCIETIES mainly due to obvious conflicts of interest as illustrated above and below:

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons... and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him.. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but your keeping your obligations."
[ Ronayne, "Handbook of Masonry" p. 183 ]


Ronanyne's book is an anti-Masonic book. Masons do not believe in what Ronayne wrote, neither have we taken any such obligations that he had accused us of.



EVERYONE SHOULD BE EDUCATED ON THE EVENTS OF P-2. THIS IS THE ONE INCIDENT THAT MASONS DON'T LIKE TO DISCUSS AND/OR TRY TO DOWNPLAY.


Actually, we've been talking about P2 around here for years. I personally must have upwards of 50 posts about them on ATS. Please use your search function.


In France,Freemasonry admits athiests,however this America.


To begin with, Freemasonry in France does not admit atheists. The National Grand Lodge of France, which is the legitimate Grand Lodge there, in amity with all US Grand Lodges and the United Grand Lodge of England, admits only men who believe in the existence of God. You have confused the Grand Orient of France (who admits only atheists) with regular Freemasonry, just as you confused the P2 Lodge with regular Masonry.


a. I asked this person about the Illuminati and what place did they hold in Freemasonry. His answer was: We are told not to say or print that word anymore because the profane have destroyed it's meaning.


I don't want to spend too much time on this, as it cannot be independently verified. Nevertheless, it is obvious that someone is not being truthful. If your friend actually exists, he is either not a Mason, or is just having fun with you.


b. When I told him about what another mason(like some of the ones of here) had stated that contradicted what he said he replied: What's his Lodge and rank? Some iniates are taught the mysteries in different ways and some not at all. For instance,the members of my Lodge practice astral projection on Wednesday nights while others play pool at other lodges. My Lodge doesn't advertise or display medallions on our cars like others do.


If this story is true, then your friend is not really a Mason. It's that simple. All Masonic Lodges are governed by the same Constitutions and Landmarks. We are one fraternity, divided into different Lodges for the sake of geographical convenience.


So my second point is: DESPITE MASONIC PROPAGANDA THAT VEHEMENTLY SAYS OTHERWISE,FREEMASONRY HAS A (ANTI)RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL AGENDA.




Given all of this information,one must ask what is the purpose of the Blue Degrees? I think these degrees where the product of the Knights Templar,they're contribution if you will,to the current reformation of Freemasonry as given in the new Grand Lodge system established at the Goose and Gridiron Alehouse in 1717 and updated five years after. Their purpose was superficial...To test the man to see if he's worthy to recieve the further teachings.

What say you?


In 1717, only two degrees existed, not three. The Third Degree was not written until the early 1720's, and the majority of it was possibly the work of Anderson. There were no "further teachings", and additional degrees did not come into existence until years later.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken
I'm guessing your a mason

Nope.


because you played down the PROPAGANDA DUE incident

I personally don't see why its so relevant. Its not a lodge from regular masonry. I don't doubt that there are collections of bad people in the world. I don't doubt that there are collections of bad people. I don't doubt that there are regular masonic lodges that have more or less bad people running them.

So what?

P2 was a group of bad people doing bad things. Why hold that against all of masonry?


and you sound angry.

I would speculate that I sound angry because I am disagreeing with you and this is not something you easily handle.


if you feel they can exist and also freely exhibit membership of the global elite unbeknownst to the public,then your opinion is not worth my time because if you can't see the danger in that,you're in denial.

I see the potential danger of it but its hardly something that anyone has a right to do anything about. Besides which, if a person is a powerful evil elitist, and then some other powerful evil elitist needs their help, do you honestly think that these people care if the other guy was lead around blindfolded or rode a goat at one time? Of course they don't. The example you cited was someone getting an insurance settlement, and we are supposing that there was undue influence on the judge becuase of a hand signal indicating membership. What of it? Masonry insists that its members not do this. So how is masonry at fault because of some members who are bad people?




a.Most dates surrounding the Knights Templar,including their origin and demise,are widely open to debate. If you got your info from masonicinfo.com aka masonicpropaganda.com then you entitled to your opinion.

How about an actual history book eh?



because they're high ranking masons doesn't mean they understand anything.

Then the entire idea you are presenting is meaningless.


And just because they claim the title of christian doesn't mean they follow the doctrine.

Wel they do, like I said I know them personally.


Look at Goerge W. Bush. I made Confirmation in the Catholic Church,did I know what it was all about or care? No.

So what? So you're not a good catholic. Who cares. Just because you did the rituals of a church without understanding or beleif doesn't mean that everyone does.

but that doesn't change the fact that Freemasonry has been used as a vehicle for covert political corruption

And this will allways be a problem. You don't see anything redeming about the group though?


should be able to hold a position of power

Unfortunately this is incompatible with the ideals of a liberal democratic society. Paradoxical enough as that is. We can not keep registers of private associations between individuals. Its also simply wrong to say that because someone is a mason, or a Knight of Columbus, or a Pythian, or in the Elk's Club, or, indeed, the Bohemian Club or the Bavarian Illuminati, that they are incapable of being good people and that they should be stereotyped as tools and corruptors.

Consider the history of masonry. The old, operative, stone-working masons had to apply to the King of England simply to gather and talk. Gatherings of the people were dangerous to the power of autocracy, can't have people freely associating with one another right? Thats why the lodges have constitutions and legalistic bylaws and there's all the hoopla about being 'regular'. Because tyrants used to rule the people. Or consider the (legendary) origins of groups like the carbonari, the 'coal burners', wherein the members gather, not in a lodge, but in a shelter in 'the forest'. Thats because when tyrants ruled europe they kept track of who the people were and regulated their movements, not even permiting them to go beyond the cities gates, except for the coal/wood-burners, who had permission to do something as mundane as leave the city (for a short while to gather wood for stoking fires, etc).

So while masonry represents a potential for abuse, and so certainly and in precisely the same way do the Elks, KofC, etc, any measures taken to control them would be, in and of themselves, a far greater abuse.


defcon5
That is funny I could swear I just read that Wiki was evaluated and compared to Britannica and came out with only 1 extra error per topic.

I think that that was for science topics. At the same time as that study was done (in the journal Nature I think), there was also quite the debacle where someone edited an entry to slander another person. I, personally, very much doubt that wikipedia is going to be useful for anything controversial, but its good for a general intro to topics. P2 was a criminal event anyways, so the wiki entry on it shouldn't be a bone of contention really.



[edit on 27-12-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
I think that that was for science topics.


It appears you're right.


from Nature Magazine
A total of 42 usable reviews were returned out of 50 sent out, and were then examined by Nature's news team.

Only eight serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles reviewed, four from each encyclopaedia. But reviewers also found many factual errors, omissions or misleading statements: 162 and 123 in Wikipedia and Britannica, respectively.


And Nygdan the carbonari info intrigued me; unfortunately the link you provide is restricted. (in RATS)



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
To begin with, Freemasonry in France does not admit atheists. The National Grand Lodge of France, which is the legitimate Grand Lodge there, in amity with all US Grand Lodges and the United Grand Lodge of England, admits only men who believe in the existence of God. You have confused the Grand Orient of France (who admits only atheists) with regular Freemasonry, just as you confused the P2 Lodge with regular Masonry.



Masonic Light,

You are a good textbook mason as you can quickly recite official rules and regulations that have been laid out and we just have to take for granted that all masons follow those guidelines...

But has the uncomfortable thought ever crossed your mind that maybe,just maybe your not being told how things really work? When your own historians admit that Freemasonrys' history has been tainted,how can you be sure of what you're told? Even in the US government,the president and Congress doesn't always know what the CIA is doing but somehow you have your finger on what's what in a global secret society? I think that's why masonry came up with the perfect phrase..."No one man speaks for all of masonry"...Step back and see the big picture. You can speak solely for your person and your lodge.

I am definately talking about the Grand Orient Lodge and their admittance of athiests except I say that Lodge is extremely historically influential and representive of Freemasonry in France. I am not confused...I can see through masonic propaganda as when masons or entire lodges of masons(P-2) get caught doing something illegal and then they are dispelled and deemed "irregular" to save face with the public. However they are still masons by universal definition.

There were/are "further teachings". Just like the Blue degrees were being taught unofficially before they were officially termed and brought forth. The Hiram story is very old. The teachings of the ancient mystery schools remain locked up in the additional degrees of masonic symbolism. Whether you as a mason choose to acknowledge the proper interpretations of those symbols is your business. If you really are in the dark about the esoteric side of the Craft,there's some really good mason to mason discussions in this forum:

www.thefreemason.com...

[edited quote from big quote -nygdan]

[edit on 28-12-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
So while masonry represents a potential for abuse, and so certainly and in precisely the same way do the Elks, KofC, etc, any measures taken to control them would be, in and of themselves, a far greater abuse.


And if you hope to learn anything unbiased...When discussing and researching Freemasonry,the largest and most ancient international secret society(which you can't even begin to seriously compare them to the Elks or Knights of Columbus) you can't abide by the same rules you would normally in say discussing a public group. Remember first and foremost,this is a secret society. Real information is not given freely. Info is extracted using historic masonic texts,testimony of former and current members,and educated speculation. All of which I provided. If you rely on ordinary history books or said groups public personal relations mission statement to educate yourself on the workings of a secret society,you won't get far.

I'm not one of these guys who googles everything. I was in a discussion with a Freemason whom I asked "What would the benefits of a new world order solely shaped by Freemasonry be"?
And this was his suprising response:

name withheld
Instant Message
Send Message
Posted: Oct 30, 2005 9:39 AM

We already live in a world shaped by freemasonry. if it weren't for the frat we would still be living in under king and pope. Were they rule every man's life from craddle to grave. the world would be like one big backwards middle east and china. every aspect of our present society and evrything we have come to know of it is masonic:

the science that has pushed us this far- masonic - born from freethinkers during the Enlightenment, and the Royal Society (masonic). the cars we drive - masonic (ford); the refrigerator in our kitchen - invented by a mason; the gillete razor we shave with - gillet is a mason. the constitution of the greatest country in the world - America, was based on the constitution of the frat; the american idea that people are born equal with certain natural rights like freespeach, freedom of conscience and worship was born from masons who fought and martyred their lives for it; the world will be just one big America. Mcdonalds and walmarts and mtv everywhere. Do a little research on something called the "Grand New Strategy", and you will understand what I am hinting at, and why the rest of the world hate America's guts. IF it were true, the common people would have no choice or hearsay in the matter. The common people in china had no hearsay throughout the countless regimes China has gone through and even though their government has change, the people remain the same - common sprockets in an ever evolving machine. Progression and Evolution implies change - it's always the common mass that, prone to innertia, dislike change. The opinions and feeling of the common herd doesn't matter. The unthinking mass has never brought about any change or anything productive in the world. It has always been the thinkers and doers that risk their lives for high ideals and those that think different that bring about change. the common mass just protests, but go with the flow of progression and become use to the new. and the old fades away. regardless of what your opinions are in the matter, regardless of weather IT is fantasy or actually happening beneath our awareness, humanity is a creative and ever evolving organism, as he evolves he will take with him his concepts of religion and governence. Isn't it time that we begin to believe that we are intelligent enough to rule our own self, and not be children ruled over by some group of men? CAN'T WE EVER JUST LIVE IN PEACE WITH EVERYONE ELSE IN A BROTHERHOOD OF MAN UNDER THE FATHERHOOD OF GOD? BROTHERHOOD is the noblest ideal to reach for. It's a simple comcept, it works in masonry, it makes peace between two people and two nations. when people are evolved enough to understand and live in oneness and brotherhood, there will no longer be a need for a global government, a one world order, or whatever.

[edited big quote -nygdan]



[edit on 28-12-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 07:54 PM
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You are a good textbook mason as you can quickly recite official rules and regulations that have been laid out and we just have to take for granted that all masons follow those guidelines...


At least what he says is documented and meant to be followed. What your bringing to the debate is word of mouth man, much less reliable.


But has the uncomfortable thought ever crossed your mind that maybe,just maybe your not being told how things really work?


Do you ever think what youre being told by your friend might be a lie? Just maybe?


I think that's why masonry came up with the perfect phrase..."No one man speaks for all of masonry"


Wouldnt this apply to any organization? An employee for Sony who dont like white people hardley makes Sony a racist company.


...Step back and see the big picture.


You should do this as well. There are loads of masons, and according to you, most are in the dark, so its not as bad of an organization as you claim.


However they are still masons by universal definition.


And these same people are all human by universal definition. No need to narrow it down and judge an entire group based on the actions of a few humans.

I dont think youre here to debate, I think your just here to insist that masons are bad dude. Sure there are bad ones, but so what? Theres bad people in all crowds. Why are you so bent on pointing out the bad Masons?


Mod Edit: to repair quote boxes

[edit on 27-12-2005 by kinglizard]



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by Taskism




I dont think youre here to debate, I think your just here to insist that masons are bad dude. Sure there are bad ones, but so what? Theres bad people in all crowds. Why are you so bent on pointing out the bad Masons?



There ARE bad people in all crowds but all crowds are not the largest and most influential secret society on the planet. Obviously I'm alluding to Freemasonry being involved with a conspiracy and I'm providing information to back that up. I shouldn't have to provide a disclaimer to this on a conspiracy forum but one is available below from the moderator. If you can't stomach what I have to say which is actually relatively small compared to other people making fantastically false claims about Freemasons being child-molesting satanists then maybe you shouldn't read any further.





Read this before posting about Masonic info

This is a CONSPIRATORIAL BOARD, not a Masonic Lodge.

Masonry falls in the category of Secret Societies, therefore this is the forum in which it will be discussed. It will be discussed in that light.

This is not a place for members of a secret society to congregate, talk about the joys of Masonry among one another, look for recruits or guard this forum to shout down conspiracy theorists.

If you are a Mason and would like to bring counter-points to theories, you are more than welcome to do that. In regard to the above mentioned activities, it will stop at this time. None of them will be tolerated anymore as this is NOT the reason this forum was created.

Don't feel like you are being singled out, George Bush and John Kerry are not allowed to hang out here and discuss the beauty of being Bonesmen and extoll one another for being one.



[edit on 25-10-2005 by Thomas Crowne]



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 10:36 PM
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Snake,
I think your missing the point of TC’s warnings. He wrote this to stop this kind of discussion…

UNINITIATED MASON: How can I become a freemason?
MASON A: Visit your local lodge.

1 month later…

NEWLY MADE MASON: Hey! Brethrens, I’m now a Entered Apprentice!
MASON A: Congratulation.
MASON B: Congratulation.
MASON C: Congratulation.

And so on….
It was not leave all freemasons out of debates. The Freemasons on this board are for the most part very knowledgeable about their craft, and for me at least a welcome addition to ATS.

Regarding your anecdotes, I find the judge story interesting. I had a friend who says he got a job because he gave the right handshake. (That was in Lebanon).

But these kinds of things happen all the time; there are some companies that will only hire Christians. I don’t think it’s right either.

About meeting in secret, I’m a lot more worried about board meeting of multinational corporations than simple Masonic meetings. I think you should too.

And has previously mentioned P2 has been discussed numerous times on this board. (Along with the Morgan incidents and the Taxil host) I assure you that ATS and its mods are not part of the cover-up.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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If you feel the masons are of little importance and no threat compared to multinational corporations and you're bored of rehashing the subject matter for whatever reason,then your obviously welcome to your opinion. By all means,post some Chomsky if that's your thing. In all actuality,I find Bilderberg,The Council on Foreign Relations,and the Trilateral Commission to be far bigger threats than Freemasonry but if you know your secret societies then you know there is Freemasonic membership in all of those groups. I also found your Freemasonry/Christian analogy null and void because Christians are not a global secret society. I'm remain very interested in this topic and I feel this look at Freemasonry is very important especially on this site where I've seen so much masonic disinfo.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 07:38 AM
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken
If you feel the masons are of little importance and no threat compared to multinational corporations and you're bored of rehashing the subject matter for whatever reason,then your obviously welcome to your opinion…


Point taken, I’m glad you’re not discounting other societies and private tyrannies, just focusing for the present discussion on masonry. Carry on… (Sorry)


Originally posted by Snake Plissken
I also found your Freemasonry/Christian analogy null and void because Christians are not a global secret society.


I’m just pointing out that this “Who you know?” goes way beyond Freemasonry.


Originally posted by Snake Plissken
By all means,post some Chomsky if that's your thing.


It’s funny you mentioned Chomsky. Lately I have been questioning even him. For one why doesn’t Chomsky ever mention the Federal Reserve and other central banking scams worldwide? (btw he frequently mentions the Trilateral commission and the CFR, although he insists that it is the institutions themselves, and not the individuals within them that are to blame.)



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 07:39 AM
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There ARE bad people in all crowds but all crowds are not the largest and most influential secret society on the planet.

I would most heartly disagree with this statement. Masonry is not the largest
nor most influential secret society on the planet. Nor is it the one that gives
shelter and aid the child rapists,murders,thieves,etc.etc. that would be
the Roman Catholic church.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken

Masonic Light,

You are a good textbook mason as you can quickly recite official rules and regulations that have been laid out and we just have to take for granted that all masons follow those guidelines...


Not necessarily. But if Masons don't follow the guidelines, then they are subject to disciplinary actions.

Of course, breach of Masonic law is rare. If someone didn't want to follow the rules, it doesn't make sense why they would want to be a member anyway.


But has the uncomfortable thought ever crossed your mind that maybe,just maybe your not being told how things really work?


Having served as Master of my Lodge, as well as on several Grand Lodge Committees, not only am I aware of "how things really work", but have myself assisted in setting agendas for the fraternity in my jurisdiction.


When your own historians admit that Freemasonrys' history has been tainted,how can you be sure of what you're told?


As a Masonic historian myself, I certainly deny the fraternity's history has been "tainted". In reality, the majority of Masonic history is easily discernable.


I think that's why masonry came up with the perfect phrase..."No one man speaks for all of masonry"...Step back and see the big picture. You can speak solely for your person and your lodge.


That isn't actually what that phrase means. It means that each individual has the right to interpret Masonic symbolism for himself. It doesn't mean that each person can invent his own history of the fraternity, or rules and regulations. Symbolism is subjective, but history and law are objective, and masonic law is clearly defined in the Constitutions of the Grand Lodges.


I am definately talking about the Grand Orient Lodge and their admittance of athiests except I say that Lodge is extremely historically influential and representive of Freemasonry in France.


Since the Grand Orient of France no longer practices Freemasonry, then it certainly cannot be "representative of Freemasonry in France". The only organization that represents Masonry in France is the Nationale Grande Loge de Francais, which is the only legitimate Masonic Grand lodge in that country.


I am not confused...I can see through masonic propaganda as when masons or entire lodges of masons(P-2) get caught doing something illegal and then they are dispelled and deemed "irregular" to save face with the public. However they are still masons by universal definition.


The members of P2 ceased to be Masons about a decade before the public had even heard of them. The Grand Orient of Italy had already revoked their Charter and expelled its members, and had even complained to the police (who did nothing). Nine years later, a scandal broke out, and Italian Masonry, who had tried its best to remedy the situation, was blamed. Talk about "propaganda" and "disinformation."


The Hiram story is very old. The teachings of the ancient mystery schools remain locked up in the additional degrees of masonic symbolism.


The "Hiram story" is about 270 years old; whether that qualifies as "very old", I suppose is a matter of personal opinion. The "ancient mystery school" line has been pretty well debunked since Gould published his 7 volume "History of Freemasonry" in the late 19th century. It is generally agreed by Masonic historians that the authors of some of the degrees were inspired by the symbolism and drama of the ancient mysteries, but this now seems to have been an afterthought.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken
If you rely on ordinary history books or said groups public personal relations mission statement to educate yourself on the workings of a secret society,you won't get far.

I disagree strongly, at least if we're using texts other than say high school text books. There are lots of very interesting studies of masonry in literature and the history of it and other secret societies, from political, historical, and even psychological and sociological perspectives. It would be far too narrow to limit a study of the topic to statements by people claiming to be masons.

Also, if we're talking about the Knights Templar, thats a group that has been studied far more than masonry and we wouldn't need to refer to masonic texts on them at all really.


We already live in a world shaped by freemasonry. if it weren't for the frat we would still be living in under king and pope.

Indeed, and especially for Americans this sort of thing is true.


the science that has pushed us this far- masonic - born from freethinkers during the Enlightenment, and the Royal Society (masonic).

The Royal Society is not a masonic organization. Some members were also masons, which shouldn't perhaps be too surprising, but the Royal Society isn't a masonic organization.


America, was based on the constitution of the frat; the american idea that people are born equal with certain natural rights like freespeach, freedom of conscience and worship was born from masons who fought and martyred their lives for it

Unless John Locke and people like Adam Smith were masons, I'd've to disagree with statements like that. Masonry was, in the 1700s especially, very popular. Thats why one finds so many masons that have been so important to the country. But what does it matter if Henry Ford was a mason? His contribution to history wasn't a masonic contribution; he made and sold cars. To be honest these statements from this guy sound like someone wanting to puff themselves up.


Obviously I'm alluding to Freemasonry being involved with a conspiracy and I'm providing information to back that up.

But what you have provided is either that some masons help each other out unfairly, or that masonry has helped promote revolutions that embraced 'liberty, equality, fraternity'. The very title of the thread is your personal case against freemasonry, so of course the subjects in the thread are being discussed on a personalized level.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23


It’s funny you mentioned Chomsky. Lately I have been questioning even him. For one why doesn’t Chomsky ever mention the Federal Reserve and other central banking scams worldwide? (btw he frequently mentions the Trilateral commission and the CFR, although he insists that it is the institutions themselves, and not the individuals within them that are to blame.)



Same here. I used to eat up Chomsky in the past but lately I find his stance on some issues,most importantly 9/11 to be alittle off. I think Chomsky is a brilliant analyst first and foremost with the uncanny ability to cut through the crap but he's not a great researcher.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by stalkingwolf



There ARE bad people in all crowds but all crowds are not the largest and most influential secret society on the planet.

I would most heartly disagree with this statement. Masonry is not the largest
nor most influential secret society on the planet. Nor is it the one that gives
shelter and aid the child rapists,murders,thieves,etc.etc. that would be
the Roman Catholic church.


I share your sentiment in that the RCC is a cancer and should be brought down a notch but I disagree with your comparision in that the Roman Catholic Church as a whole is NOT a secret society.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Masonic Light...

Like expected...You can continue to downplay P-2 by saying so and so wasn't an official mason at such and such a time so technically Freemasonry is not responsible and I'm sure some people will buy into that but other masons are quick to say in other cases that once a mason always a mason. You may be a mason in bad standing,but your still a mason. See I don't need to personally refute the things you say because other masons can do it for me PROVING that YOU only speak for YOURSELF. You can't pretend to vouch for all of Freemasonry,that's disinfo.

You think the Hiram story is merely 270 years old? Here's an excerpt from the book "The Master Mason":

The idea that lies behind the Hiramic legend is as old as religious thinking among men. The same elements existed in the story of Osiris, which was celebrated by the Egyptians in their ancient temples; the old Persians told it concerning Mithras, their hero god. In Syria, the Dionysian Mysteries had the very same elements in the story of Dionysius: for the Romans, Bacchus was the god who died and lived again. There is also the story of Tammuz, older than any of these. These are collectively referred to as the ancient mysteries.

You think masonic history is cut and dry? Here's a quote from co-masonry.org:

"The true origin of Freemasonry is unknown, lost in time, and there are a good number of historians with diverse opinions, each vehemently supporting his or her own belief."

You think there the link between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mystery religions is merely an "after thought"? Read on...

There is certainly no shortage of testimonies by Masonic authorities as to the relationship of Freemasonry and the Mystery Religions. According to Joseph Fort Newton, Masonry is the "spiritual descendant" of the Mysteries. Joseph Fort Newton was a 33 degree Mason who served as Past Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of Iowa and Past Grand Prelate of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States. In his book, The Builders, he states:

Masonry stands in this tradition; and if we may not say that it is historically related to the great ancient orders, it is their spiritual descendant, and renders much the same ministry to our age which the Mysteries rendered to the olden world.

In his book, The Meaning of Masonry, W.L. Wilmshurst, the Past Provincial Grand Registrar (West Yorks) makes the following statement:

It remains with the Craft itself whether it shall enter upon its own heritage as a lineal successor of the ancient Mysteries and Wisdom--teaching, or whether, by failing so to do, it will undergo the inevitable fate of everything that is but a form from which its native spirit has departed.

The book, Freemasonry Its Hidden Meaning, by George H. Steinmetz, published by Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, calls the "teaching of the Mysteries, the true parent of Freemasonry" and states that Freemasonry is a descendent or reincarnation of the Mysteries.

It is entirely out of harmony with the profound teaching of the Mysteries, the true parent of Freemasonry.

If Freemasonry is the actual descendant or, if one prefers the term, reincarnation of the Mysteries, back of its "veil of allegory," then must be concealed a deeper truth than expounded in the various lectures of the degrees.

It is from this book, The Spirit of Masonry, by Foster Bailey, that we will take a quote concerning Masonry and the Mystery Religions. Bailey plainly says that Masonry is carrying on the work of the ancient Mystery schools.

Study of spiritual realities found in Masonry reveals that we have perpetuated and increasingly activated the essential principals of the ancient Mystery Schools which have existed from the very earliest times.

The Masonic authority, Albert Pike, also testifies to the relation of Freemasonry to the Mystery Religions.

The Mysteries, like the symbols of Masonry, were but an image of the eloquent analogies of Nature;......

Masonry, successor of the Mysteries, still follows the ancient manner of teaching. Her ceremonies are like the ancient mystic shows,--not the reading of an essay, but the opening of a problem, requiring research, and constituting philosophy the arch-expounder.

Freemason Albert Churchwood writes in his book about the connection between Freemasonry and the religion of Babylon:

But the secrets these operative Masons had were received from the Chaldean Magicians.

The Masonic Lodge in Indiana makes no effort to hide its connection with the Mystery Religions. It openly boasts of its connection with the Ancient Mysteries. The Master Mason, a book authorized by the Grand Lodge F.& A.M. of Indiana and compiled by the Committee on Masonic Education, plainly shows the connection between Hiram Abiff and the Mystery Religions.

The idea that lies behind the Hiramic legend is as old as religious thinking among men. The same elements existed in the story of Osiris, which was celebrated by the Egyptians in their ancient temples; the old Persians told it concerning Mithras, their hero god. In Syria, the Dionysian Mysteries had the very same elements in the story of Dionysius: for the Romans, Bacchus was the god who died and lived again. There is also the story of Tammuz, older than any of these. These are collectively referred to as the ancient mysteries. They were celebrated by secret societies, much like ours, with allegorical ceremonies, during which the initiates were advanced from one degree to another in these old societies. Read these old stories for yourself and marvel how men in all ages have taught the same great truths in the same effective way.

The book, The Master Mason, quoted above challenges the Freemason to read the stories of these Old Mystery Religions to see how they teach the same "great truths" as Freemasonry.

Other Masonic authors also brag about the connection between Freemasonry and the Ancient Mysteries, the Ancient Wisdom, and the Occult, etc. Henry C. Clausen, 33° Sovereign Grand Commander says in his book, Your Amazing Mystic Powers:

A new day is dawning for Freemasonry. From the insufficiencies of modern theology, the hopelessness of materialism, and the sterility of academic philosophy, men are turning to those eternal truths perpetuated in the arcana of the ancient mysteries.

Mason S. R. Parchment states in his book, Ancient Operative Masonry:

The hierophants of the universal science and sublime philosophy taught in the Great Mysteries of Egypt, India, Persia, Chaldea and other nations of antiquity, revealed certain secrets pertaining to the finer forces of nature to such candidates as were worthy and well qualified. These faithful ones were also instructed in the doctrine of universal Brotherhood, and finally initiated into the "I am that I am" consciousness. These ideals are the landmarks, traditions and glyphics of Ancient Operative Freemasonry--nothing more.

Mason R. Swinburne Clymer, M. D., says in the introduction of his book, The Mysticism of Masonry:

There are indeed many reasons why the present volume should be generously circulated among all classes of students of the Occult and Mystic, especially the members of the Masonic bodies.

The vast majority of Masons smile with derision when the term "Occult Science" is used in connection with the Mysteries but, despite this, if it had not been for the Occult Fraternities, Masonry could not have existed.

It is the duty of every sincere Mason who is interested in the spirit of the teachings of his Order, carefully to study the philosophy of the masters who have reconstructed the Ancient Wisdom to suit his needs, and having done so, to guide his actions in all the affairs of life so as to be prepared for his entrance into the Great Lodge hall where he must give an account of all his deeds and in return receive his "Mark."

And also from the book:

All Masonry of the past dealt largely with the ethics and symbolism of the Ancient Mysteries. If the Masons of the present age will but seek for the spirit of the symbolism upon which the degrees are based, the grandest achievements in the knowledge and reconstruction will be possible and the mysteries concealed in the Greater Mysteries of Antiquity will be recovered to them.

Another Masonic author J. D. Buck 32° makes these statements in his introduction of his book, Symbolism or Mystic Masonry:

Freemasonry is modeled on the plan of the Ancient Mysteries, with their glyphics and allegories, and this is no mere coincidence; the parallels are too closely drawn.

www.freemason.org...

[edited big quote -nygdan]








[edit on 29-12-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 05:59 PM
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Non-masons especially on this board need to understand that although well-mannered masons can pop up on a forum like this and be friendly,they are NOT necessarily representatives of all Freemasonry just like my grandfather the steadfast Republican is not representative of Bush and his version of the Republican Party. How do I know this? Because I've met so many masons in real life. People should feel free to give a fair critisism of Freemasonry and not worry about offending masons who may or may not be reading this. Furthermore...

In his collection of stories called The Old Past Master Carl Claudy gives a summary of different types of masons including:

a. Ritualists
b. Social Idealists
c. Historians
d. Symbolists.

He writes, "When I speak of 'kinds' of Masons I mean 'kinds of ideals.' There is the man whose ideal of Freemasonry is ritual. he believes in the ritual as the backbone of the fraternity. Not to be letter perfect in a degree is an actual pain to him; he cares more for absolute accuracy of the lessons than the meaning in them. His ideal is a necessary one, and to him we are indebted for our Schools of Instruction, for our accuracy in handing down to those who come after us, the secret work, and to a large extent, for what small difficulties we put in the way of a candidate, by which he conceives a regard for the Order. What is too easily obtained is of small value. Making a new Mason learn by rote some difficult ritual not only teaches him the essential lessons, but makes him respect that which he gets by making it difficult.

"There is the brother with the social ideal of Masonry. To him the Order is first a benevolent institution, one which dispenses charity, supports homes, looks after the sick, buries the dead, and, occasionally, stages a 'ladies night' or a 'free feed' or an 'entertainment.' He is the man who thinks more of the lessons of brotherly love than the language in which they are taught; as a ritualist, he uses synonyms all the time, to the great distress of the ritually-minded Mason. To the social ideal of Masonry we are indeed indebted for much of the public approbation of our Order, since in its social contacts it is seen of the world.

"There are brethren to whom the historical, perhaps I should say the archeological ideal, is one of greatest appeal. They are the learned men; the men who dig in libraries, who read the books, who write the papers on history and antiquity. To them we are indebted for the real, though not yet fully told story of the Craft. They have taken from us the old apocryphal tales of the origin of the Order and set Truth in their places; they have uncovered a far more wonderful story than those ancient ones which romanticists told. They have given us the right to venerate our age and our vitality; before they came, we had only fables to live by. To them we owe Lodges of Research, histories, commentaries, the great books of Masonry and much of the interpretation of our mysteries.

"Then there is the symbolist. His ideal is found in the esoteric teachings of Freemasonry. He is not content with the bare outline of the meaning of our symbols found in our lectures - he has dug and delved and learned, until he has uncovered so great a wealth of philosophical, religious, and fraternal lessons in our symbols as would amaze the Masons who lived before the symbolist began his work. To him we are indebted for such a wealth of beauty and has made the Craft lovely in the eyes of men who otherwise would find in it only 'another organization.' To him we are indebted for the greatest reasons for its life, its tenuity, its vitality. For the symbolist has pointed the way to the inner, spiritual truths of Freemasonry and made it blossom like the rose in the hearts of men who seek, they know not what, and find, that which is too great for them to comprehend."



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