My personal case against the Brotherhood...

First off,I'd like to start this topic by saying I don't subscribe to any religion. You should think of me as Citizen X. Through years of research I've come to conclusion that Freemasonry is not only a den of deceit for those involved but also a looming danger to standing democratic governments given the covert nature of it and the people involved. I support my claims with the following:

I'm telling you two personal stories of my own involving Freemasons whom I am friends with accompanied with my analysis. I met them both through a shared hobby. When it became known to me that these people were masons I naturally struck up a conversation about their historic influence on world affairs and alleged benefits. Both of these people furnished their Lodge and location willingly. They were not clandestine and/or irregular. On the latter of the two stories,I led this person to believe I was thinking about joining the Craft to further the conversation.

Anyhow,here's the first story as it was told to me almost word for word:

"I was in several car accidents and one of my hands was injured to the point where it's difficult to grasp things. I decided to seek counsel and try and obtain my social security benefits early. Going into the case,my lawyer said there was a 90% chance I wouldn't get a judgement in my favor. Well,turns out the judge was also a Freemason and during the proceedings I made it known that I was also "on the level"(at this point he made a hand over hand gesture) and the judgement was cast in my favor. My lawyer was flabbergasted."

So my first point is: In a supposed free and democratic society THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY INDIVIDUALS IN POSITIONS OF POWER THAT BELONG TO SECRET SOCIETIES mainly due to obvious conflicts of interest as illustrated above and below:

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons... and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him.. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but your keeping your obligations."
[ Ronayne, "Handbook of Masonry" p. 183 ]

Furthermore,masonic corruption has been identified in many local cases around the world and has even posed a threat to the standing government of Italy with the events of "PROPAGANDA DUE"
which a summary can be obtained here: en.wikipedia.org...
EVERYONE SHOULD BE EDUCATED ON THE EVENTS OF P-2. THIS IS THE ONE INCIDENT THAT MASONS DON'T LIKE TO DISCUSS AND/OR TRY TO DOWNPLAY.

This next story is very telling and validates some of that which conspiracy researchers point out. Official Freemasonry propaganda states that one must believe in a God to enter the Lodge but this unwitting informant was a steadfast athiest and intimate member of the Church of Satan. He personally knew Anton LaVey and was very Anti-Christian. In France,Freemasonry admits athiests,however this America. He married into a long line of generational masons and was introduced into the Order none the less. His masonic father-in-law and brother-in-law were also in the FBI.

a. I asked this person about the Illuminati and what place did they hold in Freemasonry. His answer was: We are told not to say or print that word anymore because the profane have destroyed it's meaning.

b. When I told him about what another mason(like some of the ones of here) had stated that contradicted what he said he replied: What's his Lodge and rank? Some iniates are taught the mysteries in different ways and some not at all. For instance,the members of my Lodge practice astral projection on Wednesday nights while others play pool at other lodges. My Lodge doesn't advertise or display medallions on our cars like others do.

c. When I asked him about the end goals of Freemasonry,he described a world that I could only equate with The Borg from Star Trek. He said: We seek to bring the world to an Age of Reason. Lay waste to all religions. The good of society over the individual. Science over superstition. Controlled populations, births,etc... A return to Paganism in it's purest form.

So my second point is: DESPITE MASONIC PROPAGANDA THAT VEHEMENTLY SAYS OTHERWISE,FREEMASONRY HAS A (ANTI)RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL AGENDA. Freemasonry itself initially embraces all religions to eventually negate them. You may come into the Craft as a Christian but if you ascend the legitimate degrees of the Scottish Rite and absord the proper interpretation of ther symbols/rituals hence ancient mysteries,realize what they mean,and apply that knowledge,you will no longer be a Christian as a result. Mithra,JAH-BUL-ON,etc... Freemasonry is also a stark supporter of the seperation of Church & State and has conducted immense campaigns to push their propaganda into the educational system as revealed in Paul Fishers' book entitled "BEHIND THE LODGE DOOR".
( www.freemasonrywatch.org... )

The final thing I'd like to point out/discuss is about how most masons are hung out to dry in the first 3 degrees and the origins and purpose of those particular degrees,the Blue Degrees. If you stop at the third which is allegedly the highest degree,that's basically the masonic equivilent to dropping out of elementary school. Your given title of GRAND MASTER and yet you know nothing. As mason Richard E. Fletcher states: "We, as a Fraternity, have reached the point where far to few of our members have even the faintest idea of why they are Freemasons, let alone, have any real knowledge about our history and heritage." He also goes on to say, "To those of you who are "ritual purists" please do not let my next statement shock you. But the real truth of the matter is we have come to depend on the ritual as the basis for Masonic knowledge. The ritual does not make Masons. It only makes members! We cheat, wrong and defraud any candidate who is left hanging at the end of the 3rd Degree, having heard a lot of words and really not knowing what they mean. Until the Degrees are explained to the candidate he has no idea of what he has gone through. To suggest that the explanation is complete with the lectures of each Degree is again burying our head in "Masonic Sand."

Furthermore...More non and anti-masons probably read Morals and Dogma than masons do these days. This Pike quote speaks volumes: "The Blue Degrees are but the court of portico(porch) of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally mislead by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them....their true explication is reserved for the Adept, the Princes of Masonry."

Given all of this information,one must ask what is the purpose of the Blue Degrees? I think these degrees where the product of the Knights Templar,they're contribution if you will,to the current reformation of Freemasonry as given in the new Grand Lodge system established at the Goose and Gridiron Alehouse in 1717 and updated five years after. Their purpose was superficial...To test the man to see if he's worthy to recieve the further teachings.

What say you?

Well as for the story of the judge , you know the saying one hand washes the other ? This would probably also have happened if the Judge and the defendent were memebers of some other Fraternity , Society etc...

I'm in a college Fraternity, as well as a Mason. The Masons are pretty much like my Greek letter Fraternity, but much older and bigger. I would do a lot of things for my Brothers, and this situation is no different.

I'm not doubting anything about Masons in higher positions of authority, but I have NEVER heard of that excerpt from the "Handbook of Masonry." In my handbook it doesn't say anything remotely like that

Originally posted by Snake Plissken

I thought you were dead?

danger to standing democratic governments given the covert nature of it

I made it known that I was also "on the level"(at this point he made a hand over hand gesture) and the judgement was cast in my favor.

How is that a threat to democracy?

In a supposed free and democratic society THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY INDIVIDUALS IN POSITIONS OF POWER THAT BELONG TO SECRET SOCIETIES mainly due to obvious conflicts of interest as illustrated above

This is incorrect. In a free society people are free to belong to whatever groups they want to. Your ideas are, in fact, a danger to a free democratic society.

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons... and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason

This is false. They are required by their bylaws to comply with the laws of the nation that they live in. The handbook you are refereing to isn't even a masonic handbook.

Furthermore,masonic corruption has been identified in many local cases around the world and has even posed a threat to the standing government of Italy with the events of "PROPAGANDA DUE"

Speaking of italy, the modern italian republic was set up by masons, mazzini and especially garibaldi. Looks like they are creating, not destroying, democracies.

was a steadfast athiest and intimate member of the Church of Satan.

Er, which is it? Atheist or beleiver in a god?

He personally knew Anton LaVey and was very Anti-Christian.

So? You don't have to be a pious christian to get into masonry.

His masonic father-in-law and brother-in-law were also in the FBI.

So?

His answer was: We are told not to say or print that word anymore because the profane have destroyed it's meaning.

You just said that this guy is an evil atheist-satanist, and now we are expected to take his word on anything?

For instance,the members of my Lodge practice astral projection on Wednesday nights while others play pool at other lodges.

That would seem to mean that the Lodge doesn't do this stuff, and rather him and some of his buddies do.

c. When I asked him about the end goals of Freemasonry,he described a world that I could only equate with The Borg from Star Trek. He said: We seek to bring the world to an Age of Reason. Lay waste to all religions. The good of society over the individual. Science over superstition. Controlled populations, births,etc... A return to Paganism in it's purest form.

Honestly, I don't beleive you. This guy is a satanist, but wants to get ride of all religions, but also wants to have a paganist revival? Satanism isn't paganism, and both are religions.

So my second point is: DESPITE MASONIC PROPAGANDA THAT VEHEMENTLY SAYS OTHERWISE,FREEMASONRY HAS A (ANTI)RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL AGENDA.

Why tell us this little story? Its not verifiable, its also not even beleivable, all we have are either your word or the word of a guy you are right off the bat saying is a bad guy.

what they mean,and apply that knowledge,you will no longer be a Christian as a result.

This is false. I know christians who are high ranking masons, and who are very much into masonry at that.

Mithra,JAH-BUL-ON,etc

Well which is it, atheist, mithraism, or this made up 'jahbulon' god?

... Freemasonry is also a stark supporter of the seperation of Church & State

Good.


[quote[If you stop at the third which is allegedly the highest degree
The 3rd degree isn't the highest degree. Its perhaps the highest degree that all regular masonic rites have in common, and its the highest of the orignal degrees in masonry.

,that's basically the masonic equivilent to dropping out of elementary school. Your given title of GRAND MASTER

I beleive that the title of the 3rd degree is Master Mason. I thought you said you've spent years researching this?

As mason Richard E. Fletcher states: "We, as a Fraternity, have reached the point where far to few of our members have even the faintest idea of why they are Freemasons,

What does that have to do with anything? It sounds like this guy is urging members to be less dogmatic in their ritual and re-embrace the original intent of the rituals.

Furthermore...More non and anti-masons probably read Morals and Dogma than masons do these days.

Have you? I have recently obtained a copy and am reading through it. If its an epitome of masonry, then so far these guys are harmelss, indeed, they can't be used to accomplish anti-democratic initiatives.

their true explication is reserved for the Adept, the Princes of Masonry."

If you have read the book, how about you explain why that quote does not have the meaning you try to implicate it with?

I think these degrees where the product of the Knights Templar,they're contribution if you will,to the current reformation of Freemasonry

Since the templars ante-date masonry by centuries, how do you figure its possible that they were invovled in a reformation of it?

What say you?

From what I can see, masonry as an insitution might've helped to set up some revolutions in states. Revolutions from despotic and ecclesiatical tyrannies to liberal democracies.

From what I can see, you've claimed that masonry is dangerous because members will be obliged to help out other members, even when illegal, but haven't actually presented anything to demonstrate this obligation. Far from it, they are required to do the opposite, especially in the Scottish Rite with its 32 degree system (and honouray 33). You mention Pike's Morals and Dogma, but fail to note that it sets out the Decalogues of the Scottish Rite, one part of which is to specifically obey the laws of the land that you live in. Furthermore, nothing that i have read from that book even hints at destroying other religions. And certainly not to replace them with satanism or athiesm, or, of all things, mithraism.

Also, you imply that the lower degrees are given a false interpretation of the symbols and that the real meanign is hidden from them. This is false. The very book you quoted from details the meanings of the symbols, at the lower and upper levels. COnsidering that a mason used ot be given this book at his initiation, and the book rather clearly states that there is more to the symbols than they are given at first, it hardly makes sense to say that this is being hidden from them.

In short, you allege that they are dangerous, and then tell us stories that aren't even consisten amoung themselves. Hardly evidence, hardly convincing.

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
Well as for the story of the judge , you know the saying one hand washes the other ? This would probably also have happened if the Judge and the defendent were memebers of some other Fraternity , Society etc...

Good point...

But with Freemasonry as opposed to let's say some other alleged "gentlemens' club",there's 2 things I think one must take into consideration:

1. Freemasons,in regards to secret societies,have an extremely larger percentage of their members in positions of great authority. What other esoteric secret society can boast this? My example illustrated a judge in a lower court. Now imagine that scenario as it might apply to the police,Supreme Court,the Justice Dept,FBI,the Vice President of the United States,etc... That's why there's so much controversy over masons handing over membership rosters,because people are sick of this #:
www.prisonplanet.com...
www.prisonplanet.com...

2. The repeated oaths that are specific of Freemasonry and Freemasonry only. Those obligations are binding.

Nygdan,

I'm guessing your a mason because you played down the PROPAGANDA DUE incident and you sound angry. True?

Whether you believe me or not is of no importance to me. I told my story because it deserves to be heard and it illustrates on a small level what some conspiracy and non-conspiracy detractors have said about Freemasonry. Some is fact and some is my opinion based on said fact. I thought I established that. Of course secret societies have the right to exist but if you feel they can exist and also freely exhibit membership of the global elite unbeknownst to the public,then your opinion is not worth my time because if you can't see the danger in that,you're in denial.

A couple things off the top of my head:

a.Most dates surrounding the Knights Templar,including their origin and demise,are widely open to debate. If you got your info from masonicinfo.com aka masonicpropaganda.com then you entitled to your opinion.

b. In a den of deceit like Freemasonry where allegedly "No one man speaks for all of masonry" and nobody seems to know the true origins,the last thing I wanna hear is a mason telling me that to trust a masonic publication.

c. You know Christians who are high ranking masons,huh? Just because they're high ranking masons doesn't mean they understand anything. And just because they claim the title of christian doesn't mean they follow the doctrine. Look at Goerge W. Bush. I made Confirmation in the Catholic Church,did I know what it was all about or care? No. Don't fool yourself.

d. You were right about the 3rd degree title. My mistake.

[edit on 23-12-2005 by Snake Plissken]

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
Furthermore,masonic corruption has been identified in many local cases around the world and has even posed a threat to the standing government of Italy with the events of "PROPAGANDA DUE"
which a summary can be obtained here: en.wikipedia.org...
EVERYONE SHOULD BE EDUCATED ON THE EVENTS OF P-2. THIS IS THE ONE INCIDENT THAT MASONS DON'T LIKE TO DISCUSS AND/OR TRY TO DOWNPLAY.

This just allows me to bring up something that I have been meaning to mention for some time. Wikipedia is not, under any circumstances, a reliable source, and it really needs to be linked to accordingly. As in not at all.

People should simply not place complete faith in something which can so easily be undermined through malice or ignorance thanks to its open architecture.

Hi Snake couple of things first,your first hand account with the Judge i`m positive that type of thing go`s on and i strongly disagree with it,tho you cannot prove that if you had`nt said you were on the level the out come would have been different yes?

Secondly I`ll vouch for Nygdan I`ve been reading here for years and he is not a Mason,tho i can understand why you may think so.

I see you are rather new here so welcome to ATS,there are a multitude of threads in the archives here about the Masons,click on the SS forums i`m positive you will find much that interests you.

Personally i would be classed an Anti Mason as well for different reasons than yours,I`m Christian and feel it goes against what i know and believe,the majority of Masons on ATS (and the ones left after recent bannings) that i have read are very knowlegable whether you agree with the knowledge or not, will answer your questions if you have any so long as it dos`nt break their oaths.Obviously you dont have to agree with the answer i ussually dont

Snake

Sorry to hear you have a problem with freemasonry. Apparantly you aren't the only one and you may come across one or two others on your travels here at ATS with similar tales to tell.

gps is quite right about the freemasons here being open and willing to answer questions. The obligations we take refer only to the 'modes of recognition' so you can be quite confident we won't hide behind that old chestnut.

Please try to refrain from personal insults though. They can get quite wearing after a while, and after all it is Christmas...

Originally posted by Nygdan
Er, which is it? Atheist or beleiver in a god?

To my knowledge, Satanists do not worship Satan, but rather themselves and their own carnal lusts.

Originally posted by Bripe Klmun
This just allows me to bring up something that I have been meaning to mention for some time. Wikipedia is not, under any circumstances, a reliable source, and it really needs to be linked to accordingly. As in not at all.

That is funny I could swear I just read that Wiki was evaluated and compared to Britannica and came out with only 1 extra error per topic. Britannica averages 3 errors per post and Wiki averaged 4. I’ll have to look around for the news article but I think it was on ABC news web site or Go.com.

gps777 nice post, I agree
I have come to respect many of the Masonic posters here, even if I do not always agree with them.

Originally posted by defcon5
To my knowledge, Satanists do not worship Satan, but rather themselves and their own carnal lusts.

Well I wouldn't say they worship carnal lust.. they just don't have a problem with it. And for the record some Satanists do worship a God. The Temple of Set "worships" Set. I say worship but I believe it's more of "talking with a friend" than worship.

That is funny I could swear I just read that Wiki was evaluated and compared to Britannica and came out with only 1 extra error per topic. Britannica averages 3 errors per post and Wiki averaged 4. I’ll have to look around for the news article but I think it was on ABC news web site or Go.com.

You are correct. some science group evaluated them on science topics and found them all to be pretty close. Wikipedia like anything requires the reader to have some critical thinking skills.

Originally posted by Bripe Klmun

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
Furthermore,masonic corruption has been identified in many local cases around the world and has even posed a threat to the standing government of Italy with the events of "PROPAGANDA DUE"
which a summary can be obtained here: en.wikipedia.org...
EVERYONE SHOULD BE EDUCATED ON THE EVENTS OF P-2. THIS IS THE ONE INCIDENT THAT MASONS DON'T LIKE TO DISCUSS AND/OR TRY TO DOWNPLAY.

This just allows me to bring up something that I have been meaning to mention for some time. Wikipedia is not, under any circumstances, a reliable source, and it really needs to be linked to accordingly. As in not at all.

People should simply not place complete faith in something which can so easily be undermined through malice or ignorance thanks to its open architecture.

...If Wiki doesn't do it for you...You can look up PROPAGANDA DUE even on a masonic propaganda site like masonicinfo.com and still get "some" of the facts but watered down. In fact,here's P-2 on BBC news: news.bbc.co.uk...

I still haven't heard anybody touch this issue,which is the biggest masonic conspiracy brought to public light ever besides maybe the founding of the United States. This is a conspiracy forum,no? Most masons seem to have a hard time admitting that there has historically been corruption on all levels in the Craft.

No offense to honest Freemasons here but any questions I would have,you probably wouldn't have the knowledge to answer and if you did,you wouldn't be posting on here. From the little I've read here(especially the topic about Pike and the KKK),it seems to me that some of the masons present in this forum are a good disinformation team. You really can't debate a mason fairly because unlike a normal citizen,the mason has all these oaths and penalties that when you quote them to point out motive they like to downplay them saying "Those are not to be taken literally or very seriously..." but sure enough when a specific question comes up about degree-work,for instance..."In the 32nd degree ritual,what role does Mithra play?" the mason will usually say,"I can't discuss that,I take my oaths very seriously..." Somewhat of a double standard I've seen.

Snake

Do you think "honest" freemasons have anything to add to this forum or are we just a bunch of ignorant puppets?

Actually, by pre-conditioning anything I have to say as worthless, you entirely devalue my contribution to any discussion.

Nice.

Originally posted by Snake Plissken

I still haven't heard anybody touch this issue,which is the biggest masonic conspiracy brought to public light ever besides maybe the founding of the United States. This is a conspiracy forum,no? Most masons seem to have a hard time admitting that there has historically been corruption on all levels in the Craft.

P2 has been discussed many many times on here. Do a search.

But in short. P2 started doing things that did not agree with Masonry, so they were kicked out. many years later the scandal happened.

What else do you want the Masons to do? Disband because of the actions of people after they were expelled?

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by Snake Plissken

I still haven't heard anybody touch this issue,which is the biggest masonic conspiracy brought to public light ever besides maybe the founding of the United States. This is a conspiracy forum,no? Most masons seem to have a hard time admitting that there has historically been corruption on all levels in the Craft.

P2 has been discussed many many times on here. Do a search.

But in short. P2 started doing things that did not agree with Masonry, so they were kicked out. many years later the scandal happened.

What else do you want the Masons to do? Disband because of the actions of people after they were expelled?

Ofcourse they would be "kicked out" for all purposes but that doesn't change the fact that Freemasonry has been used as a vehicle for covert political corruption. Regardless,they obviously have a right to exist and have made many positive contributions but I strongly feel that no Freemason or member of any secret society for that matter should be able to hold a position of power for the reasons I discussed earlier. Everything should be out in the open.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Snake

Do you think "honest" freemasons have anything to add to this forum or are we just a bunch of ignorant puppets?

Actually, by pre-conditioning anything I have to say as worthless, you entirely devalue my contribution to any discussion.

Nice.

Nothing personally against you but that depends on your purpose for being here. Why would a mason be in a conspiracy forum? Are you here as a citizen like myself seeking truth or do you have some form of masonic agenda? You've taken oaths. That's obvious bias. That's makes me question any masons' motives in a discussion about Freemasonry with nons.

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
No offense to honest Freemasons here but any questions I would have,you probably wouldn't have the knowledge to answer and if you did,you wouldn't be posting on here.

Unless you ask you cant know,you maybe right or maybe not
Im interested in what you have to ask

for instance..."In the 32nd degree ritual,what role does Mithra play?"

This is the only question i could see.
I`ll ask as well can a Mason answer this question please?.

Now snake if you know the true answer and they say different you now have something to accuse these particular Masons of,either lying or they dont have the knowledge until then all you are doing is accusing them of something you dont know.

I say this because i can see over the years Masons cope a lot of this type of stick(in a way it should come with the territory),they also give a lot of stick and just recently new rules have come to ATS because of gang tactics,i`d been away for a few months and huge changes had happened.I personally had gotten used to the way it was,i ussually read a bit in the religious threads,NWO threads and SS threads,so please during these early times of these changes treat the Masons that stay here with a little more curtousy,otherwise it may come down to a few anti`s swapping links to freemasonrywatch.com,well its better to get feed back even if we are called liars fundies tin foil hat wearers etc.

I hope you can see what i`m saying,because if you posted like this a few months ago you would of had a hornets nest of Masons swarming around you.

Trinity`s a Mason and a polite guy and i hav`nt seen him abuse anyone so go easy.

Originally posted by gps777

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
No offense to honest Freemasons here but any questions I would have,you probably wouldn't have the knowledge to answer and if you did,you wouldn't be posting on here.

Unless you ask you cant know,you maybe right or maybe not
Im interested in what you have to ask

for instance..."In the 32nd degree ritual,what role does Mithra play?"

This is the only question i could see.
I`ll ask as well can a Mason answer this question please?.

Now snake if you know the true answer and they say different you now have something to accuse these particular Masons of,either lying or they dont have the knowledge until then all you are doing is accusing them of something you dont know.

I say this because i can see over the years Masons cope a lot of this type of stick(in a way it should come with the territory),they also give a lot of stick and just recently new rules have come to ATS because of gang tactics,i`d been away for a few months and huge changes had happened.I personally had gotten used to the way it was,i ussually read a bit in the religious threads,NWO threads and SS threads,so please during these early times of these changes treat the Masons that stay here with a little more curtousy,otherwise it may come down to a few anti`s swapping links to freemasonrywatch.com,well its better to get feed back even if we are called liars fundies tin foil hat wearers etc.

I hope you can see what i`m saying,because if you posted like this a few months ago you would of had a hornets nest of Masons swarming around you.

Trinity`s a Mason and a polite guy and i hav`nt seen him abuse anyone so go easy.

I'm here to debate,not to socialize. The very nature of this discussion is going to be touchy for some but to get to the truth,we must tread this path. I didn't think i was being harsh...I used the phrase "No offense to..." I don't consider myself anti-mason and not your average conspiracy theorist. I have select problems with Freemasonry. I am no Christian by any stretch. I study esoteric literature objectively. Freemasonrywatch.org has some excellent information on select masonic subjects but the religious bias they place on others is unfounded in my opinion. I actually welcome a "hornets' nest of masons" to debate with but I'm not really interested in discussing the usual masonic arguments. The answers I'm most interested in have to do with the origins of mankind and all religions,sacred geometry,and the true interpretation of the symbolism. I'm skeptical if the masons here know anything because Freemasonrys' original records, symbolism, rituals, secrets, everything has been lost, found, re-arranged, re-formatted, and neatly packaged into what you see today.

In his memoirs, the famous mason Casanova wrote, " That those even who have occupied the Chair of the Master Mason for 50 years may yet not be aqainted with it's mysteries".

This path is OK with me until it gets to be insulting. BTW, I DO hear a certain tone in your posts. This is just a friendly reminder to keep it civil.

. Freemasons,in regards to secret societies,have an extremely larger percentage of their members in positions of great authority. What other esoteric secret society can boast this? My example illustrated a judge in a lower court. Now imagine that scenario as it might apply to the police,Supreme Court,the Justice Dept,FBI,the Vice President of the United States,etc... That's why there's so much controversy over masons handing over membership rosters,because people are sick of this #:

To answer your bolded question (bolding mine),
The RCC comes to mind. as do several of the Fundie organizations.


A question for you, what do you have to support your allegations other than the hearsay evidence you have provided? What proof do you have that
what you were told was infact true, and that these 2 individuals were not
"reading you like a book and engaging inthe age old sport chain jerking?