Mexico retaliates for US wall. What?

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1

Originally posted by Mr101Hazardous

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1

Originally posted by Conquistadork
Considering the land was theirs and we forcefully took it from them you can't neccessarily deny them the right to return to what was originally theres.

I’m no scholar but didn’t Mexico attack the USA over a dispute with Texas? Wasn’t that territory acquired during war? And aren’t most Mexicans decedents of Spanish conquerors who conquered the Aztecs? You see where I am going with this?

Ok......... That was the past!! This is the NOW ! I am a Native American, I am over what happed in the past. WE live in the now. My wife is with me on this one to by the way.

The ATS Daily Dose of Racism...

Cowards build walls.

The USSR proved that, then grew up and tore it down.

[edit on 23-12-2005 by Chakotay]

Walls are in your home, around your houses, in your car!
Don't get Me started on the Racism

. People that start that are 9 times out of 10 with ones with Racism.

SORRY If I am getting hot on this one but it hits close to home with all if it.

[edit on 23-12-2005 by Mr101Hazardous]

Not that I was condoning building a wall, but what do you suggest? This is obviously a problem that needs to be dealt with. The Mexican government is crying foul because a lot of the money that illegal immigrants make in the USA trickles back into the Mexican economy, which is why they hand out pamphlets telling their citizens how to illegally cross the border.

That's why we need to do this... too many countrie's like mexico telling they're ppl hey, go for it. They wouldn't accept US citizen's doing the same to them, so why should we allow it!

This is not a race issue as some have implied. I, like many Amriccans have no objection to legal, regulated and sustanable immigation from Mexico or anywhere else. This is however, a cultrual issue. Our democratic and free market insitutions are sustained by the fact that those who immigrate here do go in a sufficnmetly gradual and orderly fashion to adapt to and internalize our polictical social and ecomomuic values, not at the torrential rate that might enable them to impose the less democratic mores that preveail in the lands from which they immigfrate. Immigration that is so vast, cocnentrated and sudden as to disrupt or displace the host culture is tanatmount to an invaasion.

It would be extremely counterproductive for United States to allow into its borders a massive influx of outsiders from a single specific country without arranging for their acculturation into American society. In some areas Illegal immigrants live together in sufficient numbers that they need not even learn the English language, much less the laws customs and philosophical foundations of American culture. They have even sponsored bills to require Americans to learn their langauges, in what seems tantamount to a cultural invasion, where illegal immigrants form semi independent communities, and impose their culture onto non-Hispanic Americans living near them. As a result they become and remain foreigners within our midst, exploiting our resources and the civil liberties that enable them to do so with impunity, without having to learn or internalize the responsibilities of American citizenship, or to communicate with mainstream American culture from whose institutions they derive the benefits of living here. This is simply unfair and irresponsible.

There is clearly the issue of compatibility: a society should never incorporate into it’s borders newcomers at a greater rate and than it can successfully acculturated into the host nation's way of life. To do otherwise is to facilitate cultural conflict between the newcomers and the host people that create the mutual and endemic racial tensions that will threaten national unity and impede more responsible immigration later on.

The Roman Empire successful accepted immigrants into its borders for centuries, successfully incorporating hundreds of thousands of Germans for example into the Roman polity. As long as they did so in a highly regulated and gradual fashion and required the newcomers to embrace Roman laws, customs and culture as a precondition for settlement, the immigrants greatly contributed to Roman success. The Roman army was dominated by Germans in the later empire and several emperors were of Germanic origin. However, when the Romans began allowing settlements in mass of German populations who had not internalized Roman culture and institutions, they became a subversive and disruptive element and the vanguard of eventual German invasion and conquest.

I am bored with references to how America conquered the Southwest from Mexico and the North American landmass in general from Native American and Hispanic people. The Spaniards conquered the Aztec, Mayan and Zapotec empires who themselves had conquered their lands from Toltecs, Olmecs and others. After evicting the Spanish, the Mexicans took forceful control of California and parts of New Mexico even though these regions wanted to remain a part of Spain or to pursue an independent course free of Mexican domination. The New Mexico California and Texas Territories in any case were very sparsely populated, the vast majority of the land was not being used even by Native Americans and had in any case been conquered by Hispanics from pueblos, Pomo, Pima, Apache and any number of Native American clans. The Native American tribes throughout the North American continent had in turn conquered their holdings from other Native Americans. The hard cold fact is it that virtually every society conquered its holdings from some other group of people and if you want to go back far enough to find the original owners, we’ll all give it back to Precambrian trilobites. The only sensible basis for sovereignty is where we now stand, under internationally recognized treaties. The American Southwest is the American Southwest, we intend to keep it, and Americans of every cultural origin whether anglo or Hispanic, should determine here and now whether their loyalties are with United States or with Latin America, Africa, Europe, Asia or whomever.

The Anglo-Americans who took the American Southwest and the Hispanics from whom it was taken, are long dead along with any debts or obligations they had relative to one another. The fact is America now owns the land and is almost exclusively responsible for transforming what had been a desert into the productive industrial and agricultural base that illegal immigrants now exploit. They would not want it if restored to the condition in which Anglo-American found it, or even in that condition that probably would prevail had it remained under Mexican ownership. The current state of Mexico, still fails to attend to the economic, social and political well being of it’s people in spite of abundant natural resources and a large landmass. Illegal Mexican immigrants are coming here for a reason. There is no reason to suppose the Southwest would do any better than Mexico proper, if it never lost the Southwest to American conquest. The problem is not with Mexico's resources and certainly not with Mexico's imaginative people who have, as legal immigrants or native occupants of the American Southwest contributed greatly to American own society which belongs to them as much as to anyone. The problem is simply with the irresponsible governance the people of Mexico have had to endure: governance that pawns it's social and economic problems onto the backs of other nations rather than addressing them at home. That illegal immigrants prefer to work and live in America is itself as a testament to the fact that the American takeover of the new Southwest, was a good thing for people on both sides of the Rio Grande.

At the time United States conquered the Southwest, Mexico was in the thrones of continual revolution, with one regime after another, largely led lead by Presidente Santa Ana trampling on civil liberties routinely. Santa Ana and other Mexican leaders had encouraged North American settlement of various portions of Texas and California in hopes of developing the resources and tax base of the otherwise sparsely populated land. They promised land grants, civil liberties and even covert freedom of religion as long as the newcomers nominally embraced Catholicism. It was only when the Mexican government betrayed these promises to the newcomers who eventually outnumber the local populations, that they sponsored the various internal revolutions that enabled the United States to incorporate into its borders as the new states of California and Texas. Clearly New Mexico was a separate case where the substantially larger Hispanic population was systematically deprived of its rights by the incoming minority.

Certainly the United States has been malevolent, racist, imperious and oppressive in many of its policies both within and beyond its own borders. However, this is generally true of all nations, and the fact that so many people from around the world wish to live in America, indicates it is considerably less true of the United States than most other countries. One major reason the United States has racial tensions, is because it allows racial diversity in the first place. In many countries, other races or cultures have been evicted, exterminated or over run, and left without even a voice with which to protest their plights. America's iniquities and injustices are more noticeable largely because the victims uniquely are allowed to exercise a voice in protest. It is because of this that America can and will continue to perfect it's democracy, to the level where it's practices equal it's ideals.

Originally posted by ANOK
You all seem to jump on that word "illegal".

Is that really the reason you hate Mexicans crossing the border?

What would you do if you were poor and desperate, your family had nothing, and just across a "border' was the land of oportuneaty (not that it really is) where you could maybe work to keep your family alive?

What would you do?

The word Illegal would be meaningless to you. You oh so law abiding citizens.
Who made it illegal to cross lands in the first place? There was a time a person could wander as they wished in the America's, long before the white Europeans came here and created their 'borders'.

So forgetting the "illegal" label how about some real reasons you all don't want Mexicans/Latino's in your country?

Because if the law was the only problem you have with it, why not change the law instead of wanting your wall? Wouldn't that be easier?
But the law is not the real reason is it?

Dude...What part of ILLEGAL....don't you understand. From what I've read here and in other post...No one seems to have a problem with LEGAL immagration. Let me guess, accoding to you...we're supposed to grant citizenship to these people who break our laws, just because they got here. BULLSH*T!!! I pay enough taxes as it is...(and before you start preaching...I'm not rich..I make around 30grand a year.) Why should my tax dollars go to people who break the law. Beccause there own Govts treat them bad...Well maybe they should get off their collective @$$es and do something about it!! Don't come here looking for a free handout.
You wanna argue, they take jobs Americans don't want...well there are a lot of Americans on Welfare...How about making them do those jobs and make up the difference. It will reduce the cost of ENTITLEMENT (yeah I used this word) programs and if they don't like the job...then what better way to get them to go out and better themselves.
I have a job, I don't like it, I don't like what it pays, but guess what...I went back to school...and am looking for something better. Will I find it, I don't know...but atleast I got off my @$$ and tried to better myself. So now I'm to pay more taxes and make less because you think we should help these poor lawbreakers out. People like you make me sick. I'm not against helping anyone...but that person has to be willing to help themselves first...if not I'll be damned if I 'm going to support them.

"The Mexican government, angered by a U.S. proposal to extend a wall along the border to keep out migrants, pledged Tuesday to block the plan and organize an international campaign against it. Facing a growing tide of anti-immigrant sentiment north of the border, the Mexican government has taken out ads urging Mexican workers to denounce rights violations in the United States."

Where the # is the word "illegal"? Look at what they use."KEEP OUT MIGRANTS"; "ANTI-IMMIGRANT". HAVE THEY IGNORED THAT ITS KEEP OUT ILLEGAL MIGRANTS, AND ANTI ILLEGAL MIGRANTS! WTF?

"Mexico is not going to bear, it is not going to permit, and it will not allow a stupid thing like this wall," Derbez said.

I can't believe this, its #ing outrageous. The Mexican officials are #ing outrageous. It's truly unbelievable to me.

Damnit it makes me so angry but what angers me more is that theres nothing I can do about it.


link: www.breitbart.com...



[edit on 23-12-2005 by k4rupt]

I must say that i am very impressed with the replies to this thread. It would not have surprised me to get back replies full of hate and racism, but for the most part that has not occurred. What has happened is an outcry from americans to fix this problem. This is how we can make a difference. My fellow americans, get on the ball and let your views be heard. So many of the threads and posts on this site consist of complaints and hand wringing with little or no action taken. Its time to let our leaders know how we feel. Write you senators, congressmen and women, heck write the White House. Let your voice be heard. For the people, by the people. Lets get it done

[edit on 23-12-2005 by zoso28]

Something has been done, the wall is being built. What we are outcrying is what the Mexican officials are doing. We (or at least I) want the world to understand how ridiculously the Mexican officials are acting. Its simply outrageous.

No matter how many letters we write to our congressmen, they aren't going to go on the news and tell the Mexican officials how we feel. Even if they feel the same way, they simply wont do it.

Another matter is how the news seem to use the words:
"KEEP OUT MIGRANTS"; "ANTI-IMMIGRANT" in all their reportings on this issue. This is straight up wrong. THey seem to have grouped the word migrant and immigrant with illegal migrants and illegal immigrants. We aren't keeping out migrants, thats 100% false, we're keeping out ILLEGAL migrants. We aren't ANTI Immigrant, we are Anti-illegal immigrants. Jesus, the news reportings have seriously got to change.




[edit on 23-12-2005 by k4rupt]

So many of the threads and posts on this site consist of complaints and hand wringing with little or no action taken. Its time to let our leaders know how we feel. Write you senators, congressmen and women, heck write the White House. Let your voice be heard. For the people, by the people. Lets get it done

I already have, next year I am eligible to vote, so I have written to my representatives and senators, that either they do something about illegal immigration, or I am voting for their opponent in the upcoming elections. For good measure, me and a collective group of concerned Americans in my area have sent a petition to our congressmen urging them to stop illegal immigration. I am pleased to hear that the House has passed this bill, I only hope that the senate does the same. I urge everyone to also contact their elected leaders and urge them to stop illegal immigration.

Below are links showing the address, telephone numbers ,and email addresses of Senators and House Leaders, I urge you to contact you local officials to let them know what you think about illegal immigration.

Senate

House of Representatives

[edit on 23-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

West Point, if you are only 17 you show wisdom beyond your years. I have enjoyed and agreed with alot of your posts and am shocked if you are only 17. So whats the connection with your name? are you going to West point?

Yes I am only 17(not for long though), and I have sent you a U2U regarding my connection with West Point, I don't feel a need to discuss it on the board. I prefer we stay on topic.


[edit on 23-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by zoso28
I must say that i am very impressed with the replies to this thread. It would not have surprised me to get back replies full of hate and racism, but for the most part that has not occurred. What has happened is an outcry from americans to fix this problem. This is how we can make a difference. My fellow americans, get on the ball and let your views be heard. So many of the threads and posts on this site consist of complaints and hand wringing with little or no action taken. Its time to let our leaders know how we feel. Write you senators, congressmen and women, heck write the White House. Let your voice be heard. For the people, by the people. Lets get it done

[edit on 23-12-2005 by zoso28]

zoso28
That is what I am doing, I agree with you, but I doubt that unless they recieve a massive amount of response they will not take action
I wonder what could encourage our goverment to take a step?
WIS

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Yes I am only 17(not for long though), and I have sent you a U2U regarding my connection with West Point, I don't feel a need to discuss it on the board. I prefer we stay on topic.


[edit on 23-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

WestPoint
Way up, you show much more maturity then many 60 year olds.
WIS

www.kesq.com...

More insanity. Giving our tax money to criminals. This is just one example out of hundreds if not thousands of cases of the US govt. rewarding people for breaking the law. It's probably because of these programs that these illegals don't feel as if they are doing anything wrong. Why they feel entitled to be able to cross the border at will. This really disgusts me

Originally posted by 33degreesknight

Originally posted by bpletcj

Originally posted by Conquistadork
Considering the land was theirs and we forcefully took it from them you can't neccessarily deny them the right to return to what was originally theres.

If you use that logic all us Americans should go back to were our ancestors came from and give the land back to the Native Americans, and Mexicans.

But why stop there, once we relocate to where they came from pre discovery of the new world, lets move them once again to were the lines were drawn up before the Romans concurred most of the known world back 1500 years ago.

Lets not stop there and give back the middle east back to the Egyptians before that was concurred by the Arabs.

Lets go a step further and give it back to the Jewish people before that.

Where do we draw the line and stop giving back. What happened in the past is just that.

Our entire human history is based on conquest. We would all be living in caves and mud huts if not for expansion. And sorry to say the strongest, smartest and most devise people are the ones that came out owning the land. As terrible as it is that is how the world works, so Mexico can not say they have a right to move back to the US just because several hundred years ago the lived here.

If they want the territory back then they need to invade and try and take it back.

I generally don't get involved in debates like this but how long is the politically correct machine going to keep rolling.

They have their country and we have ours, If they want to move here do it legally like my ancestors did it.

so you agree with me that america should stop 'liberating' other countries, ie giving back Israel to the jews only 50 years ago even though they hadnt lived there for Thousands of years, haha and the indians were only in 'your' country 200 years ago

[edit on 23-12-2005 by 33degreesknight]

If I recall it was an agreement with the entire Alis group, Brittan, Russia, French, and USA to give the Jews there own land, not the USA alone.

As far as Native American displacement. That was more like tribal warfare at first. It wasn't like we saw the Indians and said, hey lets take all there land and oppress and kill them.

Bret Maverick:

"You know, I try and kill an Indian a day, usually before breakfast and I figure its their fault anyway for being on our land before we got here."

How about this for a twist. Let's agree with Mexico that we will not put up a wall. Their people can come and try to get all the work they can.
Now the punchline. Enact legislation that anyone who hires an illegal alien gets a five year stint in Federal prison per alien, no parole, no probation, no Camp Cupcake.
Now we will have a few who will try it but the first few executives who wind up doing one hundred or two hundred years will put the kibosh on that.

Originally posted by bpletcj
As far as Native American displacement. That was more like tribal warfare at first. It wasn't like we saw the Indians and said, hey lets take all there land and oppress and kill them.

Please do some homework is all I have to say before the MODS kick me from the site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

^^^perhaps he should read his signature again??



You know what they say about speaking and removing all doubts...

edit:sp and one line response...

[edit on 28-12-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

bpletcj, Please keep the NA's out of this, this is about NOW, and we DID commit a hidious crime back then.
Not "me" of course I am "innocent" I don't believe I am.
Good thread again. Keep it going.
WIS

I will post this one more time because I dont think people read it last time. Let this sink in...YOU DONT MAKE ANY REAL MONEY. You cant bitch about these illegal immigrants stealing jobs or raping our economy because the amount is so minute it makes no impact. It looks big on paper, but if you look at other numbers (like how our overall economy is distributed) you will see that this is a silly argument.
There is also a lot to be said about why Mexico, or a majority of South America, has such an inflated economy. It is because of Western influence (mostly American businesses) that have raped their economies by moving corporations there, paying squat, and investing nothing back. All of our influence in Latin America has contributed to the ruin of their financial wellbeing. Read a book, and open your eyes to the real problem. US imperialism is the only reason these people cannot enjoy a fair standard of living in their own countries. If this makes me sound commie, so be it. Most of these countries are more rich in natural resources and tourist attractions that the US, yet their money is work s**t. Have you ever seen the resources Brazil, or Mexico has to offer? Of course, because we have set up companies to exploit everything their land has to offer, and we paid them enough wages to keep them happy, while none of the real money makes it back into their economies. It goes towards some CEO's new Benz, or a house in the Hamptons.
We should embrace them, not turn them away. If comming here legally were easy, I am sure most would. We owe them a shot here, legal or not. The medical care and schooling they are stealing should be human rights, not a matter of economics.

ONE LOVE

Originally posted by DaFunk13
We should embrace them, not turn them away. If comming here legally were easy, I am sure most would. We owe them a shot here, legal or not. The medical care and schooling they are stealing should be human rights, not a matter of economics.

ONE LOVE

That is nice! To bad We who live here can not get that. Medical care without money is 3 world at best if they take you. Don't get me started on the schooling!
I would love to have open doors to all once more! But WE need to CLEAN HOUSE first.

Edit to say HAPPY NEW YEAR GUYS !!

[edit on 29-12-2005 by Mr101Hazardous]