Jesus Never Existed. End of story.

Originally posted by kozmo
Finally, I too will pray for your soul as you burn in eternal damnation. It is not too late to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and repent for your sins.

Originally posted by thermopolis
All sins are forgiveable except one, denying Christ. So please notice the small red dot now affixed to your person similar to a laser targeting device.
As you go screaming into the lake of fire please remember these profound words.........
"I told you so"................
and Christ is the son of God Almighty

kozmo and therm:

these are the kind of statements that make all christians (such as myself) look ignorant, and take away any substance we have in our arguments. this is not the way to win people over to christ. peace, love, and understanding are the ways, and preaching hellfire and damnation will only alienate people further, IMHO.

you want to be able to say "look lord, i brought some with me." not "look how many i pushed away, lord."

If Jesus never lived and died to be resurrected, why were there enough witnesses, of this fact, to keep and spread the fact, for generations, DESPITE only being persicuted, up to torturous death, and receiving NO worldly power or gain for doing so?

He warned of the corruption of His message, from the beginning, and during the time before His death and resurrection, so disputes of details, are of course seemingly endless, and yet, DESPITE these disputes, the core message of His life, death and resurrection remains as a testimony, to that "one off" power, of what was then witnessed.

About Jesus having been the invention of Saul/Paul, the existence of the Jewish sect known as the Nazarenes or Ebionites (see links below) argues to the contrary. This sect preexisted Paul's conversion and ministry. It was led by James, Jesus' brother, and seems to have grown out of Jesus' own followers, whereas Pauline Christianity arose purely from Paul's ministry and those (almost all gentiles) whom he converted.

www.ancientpaths.org...

www.geocities.com...

www.nazarene.net...

en.wikipedia.org...

The prevailing version of Christianity today is, of course, Pauline. But arguably, of the three main branches of early Christianity, the other two being the Nazarenes and the Gnostics, Pauline Christianity was the least likely to represent the actual teachings of Jesus. That it prevailed was mainly due to the fact that it existed in a form which A) could be readily disseminated and propagated among those unwilling to convert to Judaism (unlike Nazarene Christianity) and having little or no mystical depth (unlike Gnosticism); and B) could be adapted, as indeed it was by the Ecumenical Councils under the direction of the Emperors beginning with Constantine, into a political tool useful for serving as the state religion of an Empire.

There are many facts about the early history of their faith of which most Christians seem unaware. Start with the fact that, prior to the Council of Nicea in 323 CE -- almost three centuries after the death of Jesus -- the Christians had no Bible as they do today. They had the Jewish Bible or Old Testament (which not all of them accepted), and they had in circulation a great many documents written by Christians, including, but far from limited to, the books currently canonized. But there was no canon, no authoritative sacred text. And the choice of which Christian writings would be canonical was made, not by the Apostles or any such sacred figure, but by the bishops (selected for their political reliability) under the auspices of Constantine. In short, the choice was a political one.

And from that, does today's Christianity grow.

I'm digressing, though. The point is, there were non-Pauline Christians, and so no, Jesus was not, and could not have been, an invention of Paul.

I have been a believer for a while now, and I will tell you no post on some Conspiracy form is going to change my mind. It’s funny how people like eudaimonia starts an argument like this and never care to debate. Not one post yet.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i've read the bible cover to cover, twice. i see it for its flaws, though it does have some good stuff in it. i just think that if there is a god, then said god wouldn't mind what path we took to becoming a better person.

also, jesus was considered a blasphemer in his time, as was the buddha, and many other great people....

and how do you know that i will burn for not accepting jesus, jesus doesn't seem like that type of guy that would do that if he had the power to...

[edit on 15-12-2005 by madnessinmysoul]

Revelations 22:12,13 Jesus said-
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End"

I find it hard to believe you have read the bible TWICE and you post this garbage. The bible says the only way to the Father is through the Son. If you think God doesn't care how you travel the "path to becoming a better person" then you did not comprehend what you read, cover to cover, TWICE. We who have accepted the Lord Jesus as our personal Savior need absolutley no proof. We believe. It is called faith. What ever the question, Jesus is the answer. Buddha is dead, Mohamed is dead, Confucious is dead, JESUS LIVES.

Originally posted by zoso28
If you think God doesn't care how you travel the "path to becoming a better person" then you did not comprehend what you read, cover to cover, TWICE.

That does not follow. To comprehend is not necessarily to believe.

In fact, although I haven't read the whole thing twice, I've read it all at least once and many parts more than twice. And on the basis of that experience, I can say that the fact Madness questions what he read, while you do not, argues that he comprehends it a lot better than you do.

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward

Originally posted by zoso28
If you think God doesn't care how you travel the "path to becoming a better person" then you did not comprehend what you read, cover to cover, TWICE.

That does not follow. To comprehend is not necessarily to believe.

In fact, although I haven't read the whole thing twice, I've read it all at least once and many parts more than twice. And on the basis of that experience, I can say that the fact Madness questions what he read, while you do not, argues that he comprehends it a lot better than you do.

thats just too funny. you just scolded zoso for assuming that someone else would agree with him just because they have read the material, and then you turned around and did the same thing.

just because you both have a different understanding of the material doesnt mean that either of you has a better grip on what the scripture is actually saying. why dont you both just whip down your pants and see who's bigger? thats what this particular post is basically saying...."mine is better than your."

grow up people.

Thank you for that post!

I've read so many different Bibles and other religious texts and so much history and commentary and....

I probably know a lot more about Christianity than 90% of those who call themselves Christian. I am not a Christian. (I thought I was for about 20 years but, that's before I began to take G-d seriously - another story.)

I probably know a lot more about Judaism than 90% of those who call themselves Jews. I'm not Jewish (though my wife is).

I know more about strange and esoteric and Afro-Carribean religions than 99% of everyone in the USA. I have never practiced anything like any of these religions and do not plan to start but, it's a fascinating subject!

I know a smattering of quite a few more religions and that smattering is a lot more than most.

Having made that claim, I'll make this disclaimer: I am in no way an expert in a lot of these religions - compared to many of the scholars I've encountered on ATS, I'm just an infant!

I just finally figured out that G-d is happy with our relationship without labels, dogma, liturgy, ceremony, etc. I don't think G-d cares about religions or this Bible or that Bible or this Saviour or that or any of that stuff. I don't think G-d minds if you believe that - doesn't matter to G-d at all how you get there. So, it doesn't matter to me, either.

Originally posted by Al Davison
I just finally figured out that G-d is happy with our relationship without labels, dogma, liturgy, ceremony, etc. I don't think G-d cares about religions or this Bible or that Bible or this Saviour or that or any of that stuff. I don't think G-d minds if you believe that - doesn't matter to G-d at all how you get there. So, it doesn't matter to me, either.

Well said!!!!! Perfect even!

I believe we all have are own reason for being, so one can't tell me what I need since what I need may be different from you need. God told us to seek, not ask someone else. Our path is ours alone, not everyone else's.

Problem is, in most religions, folks follow other peoples paths, instead of their own.

It is only those who seek for themselves that find, not those who follow others.

The first thing I found when I 'seeked', was I needed to pray to God, not jesus.

The second thing I found was that the porpose of Jesus was his message, not his death. He taught how to do it right. This was needed because man messed it up. Why couldn't man mess it up again? We do have a track record of such. The bible isn't perfect because man has messed with it, but it does have enough sacred information to get us started. So does the Kuran, so does Buddha.

All of the ones remebered today followed their own path, and many warned of following others.

The answers are inside you, not in the bible or church or even the most sacred of earhtly places.

Originally posted by godservant

The first thing I found when I 'seeked', was I needed to pray to God, not jesus.

i found that after years upon years of praying to god only, that the day i asked jesus for help by name i recieved it along with a huge burst of relief and happiness in my chest that was an actual physical feeling.

i used to believe as you do. i used to believe that all of the worlds religions were just different ways of worshipping the same god. now i believe that christ is the way, the truth, and the light. call me crazy if you like, but i have felt his love.

Beyond Blind Faith

by Paul E. Little
It is impossible for us to know conclusively whether God exists and what He is like unless He takes the initiative and reveals Himself. We must know what He is like and His attitude toward us. Suppose we knew He existed, but that He was like Adolf Hitler--capricious, vicious, prejudiced, and cruel. What a horrible realization that would be!
We must scan the horizon of history to see if there is any clue to God's revelation. There is one clear clue. In an obscure village in Palestine, almost 2,000 years ago, a Child was born in a stable. Today the entire world is still celebrating the birth of Jesus.

He lived in obscurity until He was thirty, and then began a public ministry that lasted three years. It was destined to change the course of history. He was a kindly person and we're told that "the common people heard Him gladly." And, "He taught as One who had authority, and not as their teachers of the Law" (Matthew 7:29).




Jesus Said He Was the Son of God
It soon became apparent, however, that He was making shocking and startling statements about Himself. He began to identify Himself as far more than a remarkable teacher or prophet. He began to say clearly that He was God. He made His identity the focal point of His teaching. The all-important question He put to those who followed Him was, "Who do you say I am?" When Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:15-16), Jesus was not shocked, nor did He rebuke Peter. On the contrary, He commended him!
He made the claim explicitly, and His hearers got the full impact of His words. We are told, "The Jews tried all the harder to kill Him; not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

On another occasion he said, "I and My Father are One." Immediately the Jews wanted to stone Him. He asked them for which good work they wanted to kill Him. They replied, "We are not stoning You for any of these but for blasphemy, because You, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 5:18).

Jesus clearly claimed attributes which only God has. When a paralyzed man was let down through the roof wanting to be healed by Him, He said, "Son, your sins are forgiven you." This caused a great to-do among the religious leaders, who said in their hearts, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

At the critical moment when His life was at stake, the high priest put the question to Him directly: "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. "You have heard the blasphemy" (Mark 14:61-64).

So close was His connection with God that He equated a person's attitude to Himself with the person's attitude toward God. Thus, to know Him was to know God (John 8:19; 14:7). To see Him was to see God (12:45; 14:9). To believe in Him was to believe in God (12:44; 14:1). To receive Him was to receive God (Mark 9:37). To hate Him was to hate God (John 15:23). And to honor Him was to honor God (5:23).




Only Four Possibilities
As we face the claims of Christ, there are only four possibilities. He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Truth. If we say He is not the Truth, we are automatically affirming one of the other three alternatives, whether we realize it or not.
(1) One possibility is that Jesus lied when He said He was God--that He knew He was not God, but deliberately deceived His hearers to lend authority to His teaching. Few, if any, seriously hold this position. Even those who deny His deity affirm that He w as a great moral teacher. They fail to realize those two statements are a contradiction. Jesus could hardly be a great moral teacher if, on the most crucial point of His teaching--His identity--He was a deliberate liar.

(2) A kinder, though no less shocking possibility, is that He was sincere but self-deceived. We have a name for a person today who thinks he is God. That name is lunatic, and it certainly would apply to Christ if He were deceived on this all-important issue. But as we look at the life of Christ, we see no evidence of the abnormality and imbalance we find in a deranged person. Rather, we find the greatest composure under pressure.

(3) The third alternative is that all of the talk about His claiming to be God is a legend--that what actually happened was that His enthusiastic followers, in the third and fourth centuries, put words into His mouth He would have been shocked to hear. Were He to return, He would immediately repudiate them.

The legend theory has been significantly refuted by many discoveries of modern archeology. These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. Some time ago Dr. William F. Albright, world-famous archaeologist now retired from Johns Hopkins University, said that there was no reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written later than A.D. 70. For a mere legend about Christ, in the form of the Gospel, to have gained the circul ation and to have had the impact it had, without one shred of basis in fact, is incredible.

For this to have happened would be as fantastic as for someone in our own time to write a biography of the late John F. Kennedy and in it say he claimed to be God, to forgive people's sins, and to have risen from the dead. Such a story is so wild it would never get off the ground because there are still too many people around who knew Kennedy. The legend theory does not hold water in the light of the early date of the Gospel manuscripts.

(4) The only other alternative is that Jesus spoke the truth. From one point of view, however, claims don't mean much. Talk is cheap. Anyone can make claims. There have been others who have claimed to be God. I could claim to be God, and you could claim to be God, but the question all of us must answer is, "What credentials do we bring to substantiate our claim?" In my case it wouldn't take you five minutes to disprove my claim. It probably wouldn't take too much more to dispose of yours. But when it comes to Jesus of Nazareth, it's not so simple. He had the credentials to back up His claim. He said, "Even though you do not believe Me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father" ( John 10:38).




What were Jesus' Credentials?
First, His moral character coincided with His claims. Many asylum inmates claim to be celebrities or deities. But their claims are belied by their characters. Not so with Christ. He is unique--as unique as God.

Jesus Christ was sinless. The caliber of His life was such that He was able to challenge His enemies with the question, "Can any of you prove Me guilty of sin?" (John 8:46). He was met by silence, even though He addressed those who would have liked to point out a flaw in His character.

We read of the temptations of Jesus, but we never hear of a confession of sin on His part. He never asked for forgiveness, though He told His followers to do so.

This lack of any sense of moral failure on Jesus' part is astonishing in view of the fact that it is completely contrary to the experience of the saints and mystics in all ages. The closer men and women draw to God, the more overwhelmed they are with their own failure, corruption, and shortcomings. The closer one is to a shining light, the more he realizes his need of a bath. This is true also, in the moral realm, for ordinary mortals.

It is also striking that John, Paul, and Peter, all of whom were trained from earliest childhood to believe in the universality of sin, all spoke of the sinlessness of Christ: "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).

Pilate, no friend of Jesus, said, "What evil has He done?" He implicitly recognized Christ's innocence. And the Roman centurion who witnessed the death of Christ said, "Surely He was the Son of God" (Matthew. 27:54).

Second, Christ demonstrated a power over natural forces which could belong only to God, the Author of these forces.

He stilled a raging storm of wind and waves on the Sea of Galilee. In doing this He provoked from those in the boat the awestruck question, "Who is this? Even the wind and waves obey Him!" (Mark 4:41) He turned water into wine, fed 5,000 people from five loaves and two fish, gave a grieving widow back her only son by raising him from the dead, and brought to life the dead daughter of a shattered father. To an old friend He said, "Lazarus, come forth!" and dramatically raised him from the dead. It is most significant that His enemies did not deny this miracle. Rather, they tried to kill Him. "If we let Him go on like this," they said, "everyone will believe in Him" (John11:48).

Third, Jesus demonstrated the Creator's power over sickness and disease. He made the lame to walk, the dumb to speak, and the blind to see. Some of His healings were of congenital problems not susceptible to psychosomatic cure. The most outstanding was that of the blind man whose case is recorded in John 9. Though the man couldn't answer his speculative questioners, his experience was enough to convince him. "One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" he declared. He was astounded that his friends didn't recognize this Healer as the Son of God. "Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind," he said (John 9:25, 32). To him the evidence was obvious.

Fourth, Jesus' supreme credential to authenticate His claim to deity was His resurrection from the dead. Five times in the course of His life He predicted He would die. He also predicted how He would die and that three days later He would rise from the dead and appear to His disciples.

Surely this was the great test. It was a claim that was easy to verify. It either happened or it didn't.

Both friends and enemies of the Christian faith have recognized the resurrection of Christ to be the foundation stone of the faith. Paul, the great apostle, wrote, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (1 Corinthians 15:14). Paul rested his whole case on the bodily resurrection of Christ. Either He did or He didn't rise from the dead. If He did, it was the most sensational event in all of history.

If Christ rose, we know with certainty that God exists, what He is like, and how we may know Him in personal experience. The universe takes on meaning and purpose, and it is possible to experience the living God in contemporary life.

No, Jesus DID exist. Its only the Christian religion along with all religions that is false.....

Or the one before that, or who killed Kennedy...etc.
2000 years ago? Knowing for sure what happened, in detail.... that is out of my league. I would say I bet he did live, and I admit that my bet is purely sentimental, I have seen scant non-biblical contemporary references. One actually, Josephus, whose other works I find unlikely to be true. So if he lied about other things.... some say he wrote the biblical texts too. In that case there is one Joshua Bar Joseph eye witness account, by a writer whose truthfulness is dubious. Yet I'd bet he lived.... so there ya go.

If Christ rose, we know with certainty that God exists, what He is like, and how we may know Him in personal experience. The universe takes on meaning and purpose, and it is possible to experience the living God in contemporary life.

there's one problem, we have no evidence pointing to the ressurection of jesus.

If He didn't rise from the dead, then why was His body never found?

Because He rose into Heaven after many people had seen Him after the resurrection.

Mark 16:19 "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."

could have been grave robbers, or maybe his followers couldn't find which tomb they had put him in and they ended up saying he came back to life and went up to heaven.

Originally posted by just me 2
If He didn't rise from the dead, then why was His body never found?

Because He rose into Heaven after many people had seen Him after the resurrection.

Mark 16:19 "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."

...and you know the body was not found...how? because that wasn't reported in the canonized Gospels? hmmm.....wonder why the "sales brochure" for Christianity wouldn't mention that....just wondering.

The theory that he was still alive is my fave, cuz that explains the empty tomb, the resurrection, and the Illuminati.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Hate to break it to you but the Bible is not the only book in which you will find that Jesus did exist.
If you check out the Koran, you will see that Jesus is also mentioned there

Hate to break it to you that the Koran was not written anywhere near the supposed time of Jesus. Also Jesus was only put into the Koran to try and convert christians to Islam.

Originally posted by GrendelsBacon
I figured I would list some more historians who document Christ's existence: Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Tertullian, Origen, Dyonisius. Even the Talmud documents the crucifixion of Jesus.

These historians writings do not constitute the existance of Jesus, most are more likely to have been doctored i.e Josephus, why would Josephus (a pro Roman Jew) recognise Jesus as the christ when most jews didnt see Jesus as their saviour?

Originally posted by zoso28
And beliefs such as you have posted here will damn you eternally to hell. Truly, End of story! I will pray for your soul

And your beliefs will damn you to a life of narrow mindedness. I laugh at your misfortune.

Originally posted by Nygdan
www.jesusneverexisted.com...

what did you find convincing from that site?

What was so unconvincing for you?

Originally posted by kenshiro2012

Are you so sure about there being no exidence of the exodus? I am going to assume that you are refering to when the Israelites left Egypt, if that is the case then you are mistaken. There is evidence found in Eqypt that does indeed support the Exodus (myth). What most archelolgists debate on this subject is the exact timing of the Exodus and under what conditions it occured...
Kindly refer to the below link:
www.bibleandscience.com...

Try not using websites that are christian orientated. As you said there is a gap of a few hundred years between when the exodus could have happened but do you really think that no-one would have noticed and written about between 3-4 million people and their livestock etc (a train of people that would have spanned miles) walking through Egyptian controlled lands. Also why did moses want to take them to another part of Egyptian territory to escape the Egyptians and where did they get all their gold from if they were supposedly slaves? The main thing though is the the mention of Israel on this Merneptah Stelae only denotes a tribe of people and not a designated land. en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by thermopolis
All sins are forgiveable except one, denying Christ. So please notice the small red dot now affixed to your person similar to a laser targeting device.

As you go screaming into the lake of fire please remember these profound words.........

"I told you so"................

and Christ is the son of God Almighty

Eh I think you should check your Bible again the only Unforgivable sin is denying the Holy Spirit not Jesus.

Originally posted by kozmo
First of all, who needs proof? Believing is an act of FAITH! True Christians need no proof whatsoever, they simply need faith - which sadly you are lacking. However, in the event that you need proof - try reading the Gospels or Psalms. These are written by those who purported to be WITH Jesus during His time here.

Insofar as denying ignorance... Well, in order for me to succeed in such a mission I need to simply deny your post in it's entirety as it certainly embodies nothing but ignorance, not to mention blasphemy.

Finally, I too will pray for your soul as you burn in eternal damnation. It is not too late to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and repent for your sins.

With the Gospels and Psalms I think you'll find you are slightly off, What was Mark and Luke to Jesus? What about Paul? and the psalms were written before the supposed life of Jesus. You are the Ignorant one in my eyes, ignorant of your own religion.

Originally posted by Toelint
What cracks me up is people who insist Jesus never existed...yet have no problem entertaining the thoughts and feats of these people:

Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Thales, Anaximander, Heraclitus, Pythagoras, Alexander The Great, Julius Ceasar, Cleopatra and Mark Anthony, Hannibal (The General, not the cannibal), Ramses I and II (or for that matter, any Egyptian Pharoah, Confucius, etc., etc., etc...

If you're going to pick a historical document apart, why quit at the Bible? How about the Rosetta Stone, Plato's Republic, oh, and add anything (I mean ANYTHING) written in Sanskrit, Sumerian, or Cuniform. (All Pre-Jesus languages.)

They're all lies...right?

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Toelint]

They quite possibly could be lies but then there is usually more than one source of evidence for these people and that belief in their lives is not based on FAITH.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i still haven't been provided with any cited evidence as to the existence of a judean named jesus who died on a cross after preaching a certain form of judaism.

Yes and you wont get your evidence either because there is none as there is none for Abraham/Moses and other patriarchs.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
If Jesus never lived and died to be resurrected, why were there enough witnesses, of this fact, to keep and spread the fact, for generations, DESPITE only being persicuted, up to torturous death, and receiving NO worldly power or gain for doing so?

Well that depends on how you see the resurrection. Literally or as a parable?

Originally posted by KC8
I have been a believer for a while now, and I will tell you no post on some Conspiracy form is going to change my mind. It’s funny how people like eudaimonia starts an argument like this and never care to debate. Not one post yet.

Well why stick your oar in? If you care to debate Im up for it.

Originally posted by Al Davison
I just finally figured out that G-d is happy with our relationship without labels, dogma, liturgy, ceremony, etc. I don't think G-d cares about religions or this Bible or that Bible or this Saviour or that or any of that stuff. I don't think G-d minds if you believe that - doesn't matter to G-d at all how you get there. So, it doesn't matter to me, either.

If it doesn't matter then why believe in God in the first place? If you knew nothing of Gods and Bibles etc then why should care whether a supreme being exists?

Originally posted by just me 2
If He didn't rise from the dead, then why was His body never found?

Because He rose into Heaven after many people had seen Him after the resurrection.

Mark 16:19 "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God."

They never found the body of Hitler either does this mean Hitler was resurrected? Such a feeble claim.

With all that said I think the biblical Jesus was based on a historical person, just NOT the son of god.

G

Yuletide greetings to all

Originally posted by thermopolis
As you go screaming into the lake of fire please remember these profound words.........

"I told you so"................

zozo28
And beliefs such as you have posted here will damn you eternally to hell. Truly, End of story! I will pray for your soul

spread the love :shk: