Bodies of Killed Service Members Return as Freight

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
LOAM : you tell us to ` deny ignorance ` - please look carefully at the photo from your opening post - an compare it to the one of L. Cpl. Serio - spot the difference ????????????

You mean that one photo depicts a color guard and the other does not? Or that the crate colors are different? I don't understand your point.

Originally posted by BigTrain
Oh man, at first I thought this story was a little weird and then I read that Barbara Boxer was involved which 100% proves this is a another one of her smash the bush admin stories. This woman HATES the military people. She is a rabid socialist commie lib from my once great state of california. If shes involved here, its absolutely a sham. I cant believe I read she was involved here, i am just blown away that she would use 2 more parents of a fallen soldier for her bashing campaign. Well, im not blown away actually, typical Boxer tactics.
Train

Never mind the clear implication that it was these parents (California residents) who contacted their Senator...

Originally posted by SoldierX
loam you say "Just to be clear, I think being a military guy has nothing to do with it..."

How is that? Since you are talking about a military subject and about a duty ive performed before I think im the SME when it comes to it.

In the context of what I quoted from your previous post, I think what I posted was clear.

Let me remind you...

You said:

If the idea that the bodies are shipped via aircraft in the cargo hold upsets you.......sorry but thats how it works. Ive done my time in iraq and other war zones, never have I heard another soldier say " hey bro....make sure the color guards there if I dies and make sure I have a huge parade too".

If you had read this thread thoroughly, you would have known that I never made any such representation. In fact, I explicitly stated the opposite.

Originally posted by SoldierX
If you dont like people stating how they feel on the subject then I think your in the wrong place.

If you can't be bothered to read what I have written, before you make comment upon it, then why are you here?

Originally posted by SoldierX
I didnt attack you,

Nor did I...Just pointed out the obvious fact that you did not thoroughly read this thread. Where did I claim I was upset that they come in crates...or that there should be a parade???

Originally posted by SoldierX
But if you want to take it as a personal attack then I think you may have posted this as flame bait.

Not everyone who posts here is a 13 year old sitting behind a keyboard looking for cheap thrills. I have better things to do than "flame bait" as you put it. My post history on ATS speaks for itself.

Originally posted by SoldierX
Take it how ever you want but im not going to get in a fight with you because you take what I think as a personal attack.

Ditto.

LOAM : does everything have to be sppon fed to you ???????

BOTH coffins are careried on commercial carriers

BOTH coffins are carried as freight

BOTH coffins are carried in a board shipping sleve on a pallet

NIETHER coffin has a flag

the honour guard , you now fixate on may be ifferlivant as :

1 - is the first imahge a layover or final destination - freight has to change planes where no direct service is availuable - have you discounded this posibility . or do you demand a guard for plane swaps ?

2 - the first photo may be criopped or the detail waiting or forming up ` off shot ` or be hidden by terminal machinery


lastly , have you discounted murphys law ??? the order to send a detail may have been sent to a faz magine with no paper or some such - sucg crap happens from time to time

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
LOAM : does everything have to be sppon fed to you ???????

I'll let the board decide if your questions have merit.





Mod Edit: Big Quote

[edit on 12-12-2005 by kinglizard]

[edit on 12-12-2005 by loam]

I dont know why you should be complaining about how the troops are coming home respectfully. But this is something I would appreciate even if honoring the dead is not as grand as JFK's.










There is another pic I couldnt find where the wife puts her stomach on the Marine's coffin to have the Marine "touch" the baby.

deltaboy

Is that last pic real?

EDIT: I'm not sure what everyone's beef with this topic is either.



[edit on 12-12-2005 by loam]

Originally posted by loam
deltaboy

Is that last pic real?

Of course its real. The wife wants to sleep with her husband one last time while playing their favorite music together.

Sorry for one problem, she is not the wife, but his fiance. She is playing the music for supposed wedding that she and the Marine hope to hear for the formal wedding celebration.

[edit on 12-12-2005 by deltaboy]

I don't have words to describe that picture...

It's painful to look at....

My 0.02.

loam - it seems to me the issue is whether or not the dead soldier is escorted on the last leg home, and how the coffin is unloaded at its final destination.

IMO the soldier should have an escort, and be unloaded with honors. It's basic respect seeing that he died for his country.

It's also good PR for a healthy military. Wonder why this one doesn't want communities to notice dead soldiers' returns?


Good work.

All soldiers, no matter how they die, ARE escorted home by at least one, usually two other soldiers. They are the last on the plane, and only go on after the casket is loaded, and the flight attendants usually ask the passengers to stay seated while they get off first, so that the casket can be unloaded. They remain with the casket at all times it is not on the plane. It doesn't matter if they had a heart attack and died, or were killed in the war, ALL soldiers are escorted home.

[edit on 12/12/2005 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
All soldiers, no matter how they die, ARE escorted home by at least one, usually two other soldiers.

I think the issue here is that it's not - what's been happening is that they're escorted into America, but then just shipped from the central military location to their hime towns without escort.

...Check back on the thread here.

Originally posted by soficrow
...but...just shipped from the central military location to their hime towns without escort.

Standard military operating procedure/protocol.




seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by soficrow
...but...just shipped from the central military location to their hime towns without escort.

Standard military operating procedure/protocol.

seekerof

Which is what loam has been saying, and questioning - but half the posters here say there's a full guard for unloading.

IMO - our boys deserve an escort all the way home.

As has been stated several times, by people that have worked at airports and KNOW (including me) being met by an honor guard, color guard etc at the airport just isn't feasible. They have one to two escorts that ride in the plane, and with the remains, so they ARE escorted. I read the entire thread, and this has been pointed out by military people who have DONE escort duty, along with people who know this as well. They can't be met by a full honor guard on the ramp, as it's a very unsafe environment, not to mention that, as defcon5 stated, it would cause a huge ripple effect delaying dozens of flights and causing huge fines to the companies.

I hate to say to say it but it is time to send Bush over to the sandpit and see how he would like having his lifeless body sent home as freight. This is sending the wrong message in a very undignified manner. Or better yet send some of Bushs close advisors over for a stint. Karl Rove would make one hell of a waterboyxwhil Condi. is whipping Dicks fat buttocks. People...our govt. is not being a govt. anymore or have I missed something? It's time to organize and make a concerted effort to let the powers WE ELECTED know just how pissed we are.
If the language is harsh, I would bet the inside of a freight container would be worse. Commander In Chief? Bush is not even in the right league Being ex- Air Force myself If I knew our guys were put away like that and I had to fly them out, I'd resign my commission on the spot and take my lumps for what I believe in.

Once again, Bush had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS POLICY. The USAF doesn't have the airlift to ship all of the bodies on their own planes, plus war supplies to Iraq and Afghanistan, PLUS routine shipments to various bases. The only way the military can get bodies home is by civilian planes, and that means in the cargo holds. This has been going on for a LONG time already. I first heard about it in 92.

[edit on 12/12/2005 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
As has been stated several times, by people that have worked at airports and KNOW (including me) being met by an honor guard, color guard etc at the airport just isn't feasible. They have one to two escorts that ride in the plane, and with the remains, so they ARE escorted. I read the entire thread, and this has been pointed out by military people who have DONE escort duty, along with people who know this as well. They can't be met by a full honor guard on the ramp, as it's a very unsafe environment, not to mention that, as defcon5 stated, it would cause a huge ripple effect delaying dozens of flights and causing huge fines to the companies.

Then how do you explain ALL the examples I provided above?

Did those soldiers get special treatment???

I have already demonstrated with evidence and not mere assertion every statement in your quote to be untrue!



[edit on 12-12-2005 by loam]

Certain airports, such as small airports, will allow honor guards on the ramp, since they won't disrupt operations. Bigger airports will SOMETIMES. Families can request an honor guard, and IF the airport will allow it, then it will be done. But the final decision is up to the airport authority, and involves when the body will be arriving, and how busy operations are at that time.

I love how assertions on this thread keep moving or discount what has already been contradicted by factual evidence presented within this thread...

Two of the examples come from San Fransisco & Cincinnati- NOT minor airports...But neither really is Portland or Sacramento in relationship to San Diego... Shall I begin to look for others from MAJOR airports?

So your position is that the San Diego airport is responsible for the Holley family's issue?

Oh, and given the roughly 63 deaths out of a total of 854,021 domestic flights per month, you call that disruption? (Actually, I should net out the deaths of the examples I provided earlier and others I am able to find... )

Disruption indeed...

It's not like they are doing this in the middle of the runway...

How would this be anymore impactful than how they unload luggage with luggage carriers? Or load planes with food from food vendor trucks.... or fuel trucks.... or airport authority admin vehicles.... etc...

Give me a break...





[edit on 12-12-2005 by loam]

Did you read what Defcon5 said about delays loam? The company responsible for the delay gets fined huge amounts of money PER MINUTE. The company unloading will be blamed for the delay, NOT the government. And as I said after the comment about small airports, the final decision of whether to allow it, is up to the AIRPORT AUTHORITY. If the airport manager will allow it, then they'll be allowed to send an honor guard.

However, the delay won't just be those 63 flights loam. That flight is delayed, so 30 people are delayed for 3 connecting flights, those three flights delay to wait for the 10 missing people. Now you have 15 people per plane late for connecting flights, so 5 more planes wait for them..... It's going to snowball. And the airlines are going to pay fines for cargo and mail being delayed, and the cargo handling companies are going to get fined for the flights being delayed, etc. Yes there will be SOME honor guards meeting caskets, but it's not feasible to meet EVERY FLIGHT with an honor guard, and not every airport manager is going to allow it.

[edit on 12/12/2005 by Zaphod58]

PLEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZEEEEEEEEE!!!

Let's deal with facts here- not fantasy because it happens to fit your unsubstantiated argument....

Year to date (2005) there were a total of 41,039,305 minutes worth of delays... ( Source. )

Let's put that into perspective shall we? Crunching the numbers, I come up with over 78 years worth of delays for just this year alone... Shall we look at the 2004 and 2003 numbers?

Provide your source (other than Defcon5's assertions ) that airlines would be "blamed" and "charged" for any delay associated with the removal by color guard of a fallen soldier...

Ridiculous! and Specious!



[edit on 12-12-2005 by loam]