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The sins of Wal-Mart.

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posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:25 PM
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I ran across this today and since I haven’t seen it discussed before I thought I’d pass it along.

It seems 65 ministers got together and sent a letter to Wal-Mart condemning it for its sins. They are obviously conspiring to shame the world’s largest retailer into becoming a better steward of its workers. Here are a few quotes:

“at what moral price do we accept the sins of exploitation and greed? Sins, it is sad to say, which are exemplified by one of America's largest and richest corporations, Wal-Mart.”

Also:

“we also ask ourselves, is it right to shop at Wal-Mart? Would our God want us to support Wal-Mart’s values and actions with our dollars?”

I couldn’t help but wonder if its actually a sin to shop at Wal-Mart as the good ministers are implying, and though I find the business practices of Wal-Mart to be immoral at best, I have a bit of trouble dispatching the lot of them off to the fiery furnace for good business sense, even if it comes at the expense of their workers.

Here’s a link to the story:Letter to Wal-Mart

What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe they are sinners?

Love and light my friends,

Wupy




posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:33 PM
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As far as I am concerned, I do not do Wal-mart because of the way they treat women employees, but I think the Christ-mas issue is why the fundies are in such condemnation, as Sam was a big fundie



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:36 PM
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Theologically a sin is anything that helps to break the loving relationship that you have with God. You must also have full knowldge that what you are doign will hurt your lovign relatonship with the Lord also. If you go to wal mart and buy something and are like "OH NOES!!! I am supporting bad causes that do not suppor teh corpral works of mecry and I go directly against what Jesus said about being naked and not being clothed or being hungry and not fed!!!!" And you believe that by doing this you have inded broken or hurt that relationship you have indeed sined.


But the average person? Nah we go to wal mart to buy bread for lunch tommorw or to buy paint for a painting or a present for a freind. We dont go there to seek a destruction of our lovign relationship with God. it all lies int he intentons. God ultimatelly checks your heart.


Now as for wal mart itself... Sin generally boils down to selfishness and pride. If you think about what it is then its easy to see how this is a fact. We are so selfish and so full of pride that even though we know this action will hurt our all loving relationship with the almighty good and we still go on to commit the sin. It is obviously out of pride and selfishness. Now if we look atr wall marts motives for becoming a psudo monoply on buissness if a few areas it can be easy to assume that it may being out of greed or selfishness. so it is possible that it the big shots at wally mart are indeed carrying out sinfull acts.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 09:49 PM
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according to the bible walmart and all of its workers would be sentenced to death for not keeping the sabbath day holy........this would also condem all the people who shop there on sundays........but who can resist when that rollback fellow is so inviting.................



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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Maybe some of those 65 ministers had "mom and pop" stores in a small community when WM came in and put them out of business.

This is one instance where free enterprise sucks. I personally would rather pay a little more and patronize a place where "people" have a vested intrest in their livelyhood.

I'll support the ministers on this one.

It's a brave new world.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:15 PM
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But what about us that don't even believe in the concept of sin? Or damnation. The free thinkers who live without religion.

Is it still wrong, to participate in a venture that oppresses the lowest rung of society? That makes children dependent on the state for health insurance and pays slave wages to the very people that we should be helping out of poverty?

Wal-Mart may very well be the new plantation owners of this age. They rob the soul of all hope while providing a subsistence living to the ones that need the most help of all.

Its something to think about.

Love and light,

Wupy



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:36 PM
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as much as religion would like to make it seem that there isnt, there is a gray area of sin. i guess ignorance is damnation for some though. but even then who knows what right and wrong? who defines it? how do you know something is true, and nothing more then faith?

i once heard "the only thing we know is real is ourselves" which is true. everything else is just faith based on what you want to believe in.

bottom line, too many gray areas in man made religion and too many unknowns. truth is you do what you feel is right or wrong, not in fear of god, just because its what feels right. if you believe in god, let him judge you by the decisions you made, not the image you put up in front of all other people. there are no good or bad people, only good and bad decisions. which is why i cant believe in a person is either good or bad, there is a gray area.

walmart in this instance goes with all that, it is based on what you think. if you think its wrong because it holds people down, dont shop there. if you think otherwise then go with it. there are no good or bad people, only good and bad decisions.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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Leaders of Faith, my left foot. I didn't bother to read the letter. The names attached to it are enough send me packing to WalMart, immediately. On second thought, I'll wait until after midnight to avoid the rush.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 11:46 PM
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Once again I agree with my fellow senior citizen, Mr. Philpott.

Reading the names of the socialist mendicants in pastors' clothing who signed their manifesto (notice that there wasn't a single Mormon who signed that thing), I have this deep desire to Consume Large Quantities of stuff from Wal-Mart, starting with a "Sam's Choice" bottle of water with which to wash down the two "equate" brand pain relievers.


Jesse Jackson always seems to give me a headache.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 02:49 AM
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I shop at Wal-mart, all the time. It's cheap & easy to get in & out of quickly.

Sorry, I don't care what anyone says, it's not a sin to own a company & make money.

If that was true, then Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ.

I can't stand Bill Gates, & I'm not defending him either.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 03:30 AM
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Geeze.

Other than the way they treat they're workers, I see no "sin" at Wally World (as we southerners call Wal-Mart)

They dont sell Parental Advisory CD's, No pornography, no handguns, ect.

Wal-mart is the least of the corporate sinners.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 06:17 AM
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" . . . I have a bit of trouble dispatching the lot of them off to the fiery furnace for good business sense, even if it comes at the expense of their workers. "


I suspect then you have no trouble with businesses that engage in child labour to enhance profits? After all, it makes good business sense - pay hardly nothing in labour and make a huge profit. Although Wal-Mart has come out strongly against such tactics as not being part of their partnership agreement with their suppliers, it is not until such a condition is exposed by an outside source that Wal-Mart responds to those allegations.

Am I to assume that you also agree with Wal-Mart's dismal record of discrimination against female workers? After all, you can save a lot of money by paying females less while at the same time getting them to do the same job a male worker does for higher pay. (I'm male by the way). This too makes good business sense. Right?

I don't shop at Wal-Mart because it's like giving them a nod and a wink to carry on, keep draining the dignity of those who find themselves in Wal-Mart's employment. Just count the number lof law suits brought against Wal_mart for their employment practices. Good business sense, right?

Yes there are other jobs, but many of them died a horrible death at the hands of Wal-Mart - mom and pop stores have closed in record numbers in the wake of the Wal-Mart march on America's pocket books. This has hurt good people and businesses . . . good business sense, right?

Capitalism without conscience = good business sense, right?

WRONG!

Would you encourage your grandmother or grandfather to be a greeter at Wal-Mart? Sure you would . . . it just makes good business sense . . . right?



[edit on 10-12-2005 by FEMA]



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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My friend works for wall-mart and his starting pay was like $9.25 or somthing? thats pretty damn good for a high school student dont ya think?



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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Thank you for making my point so precisely. Despite the fact you are unsure of his starting rate of pay - lets call it $9.25 - he is a highschool student. And as you said, $9.25 is not bad.

Try raising a family on 10 bucks an hour. Try paying for cloths, insurance, gas, a mortgage, car payment, kid's needs, property tax, utilities and groceries with about $595.00 take-home every two weeks. Yes, some people can do it, but ask them if they are enjoying their quality of life, if there is anything more they need or could use. Ask them if their kid will be going to Harvard or ANY post secondary learning institution.

Easy to get by when you are living at home at a 10 buck wage - try raising a family on it and getting them all the things they need, not deserve, but just need. Then factor in one of your children getting sick and needing extensive medical help - is that ten bucks an hour going to get it for them? Cover all their meds., doctors, tests, surgery?

Yep, at $9.25 you got the world by the azz with a down-hill pull!

". . . dont ya think?"



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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In my opinion 9.25 an hour is pretty good considering that minimum wage is still 5.35 an hour. Try raising a family on that! It's a store, it's supposed to make money. A lot of people making minimum wage can't afford to shop at the Mall or Department stores. Most of us can barely afford the Dollar store! If you want to boycot Wal-Mart by all means do so, some of us can't afford to.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Oh yes, $9.25 an hour with no health benifits and the lack of job secuirity where if your boss or supervisor doesn't like you he can fire you or make your live a living hell. Not to metion lay-offs or cut hours after the holidays. 9.25 is nothing and is well below the level of self-sufficiatancy.

Yes I did work for wal-mart, and I got great reviews until a new supervisor decided he didn't like me because I was not doing something he never told me to do. Not to metion how they use illegal union busting tactics

As far as "Sinning" I think the leadership of Wal-mart has certainly gotten greedy and lost touch with what Sam Walton invisioned wal-mart to be.


Walton developed Wal-Mart into a chain of massive, centrally controlled stores that were typically sited in small towns and rural areas. The stores featured heavy discounting, smaller profit margins than usual coupled with higher-volume sales, and a customer-oriented staff.


small towns and rual areas.. .check
heavy discounting... has been replaced with bulk buying from cheap labor in china
smaller profit margins... have been replaced by tempting overpriced impluse buys. how they can discount jewlerly 50%-70% off with a straight face is beyond me
High volume sales... again see cheap shoddy prodcut made in cheap chinese factories.
Customer-orientated staff... not the last time I checked.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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I hope no one here works for a small buissness if yall are complaing about thoes wages and benifits!



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 04:27 PM
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I shop at Wal mart all the time. As far as their business practices go, all I know is I worked there for a while and I had no problems. I know plenty of people who've raised families on less than I made there (which was less than $9 an hour at that). Hell, my mom raised me by herself making less than minimum wage as a waitress. Is it a glorious lifestyle? No, that's why you bust your rear so you don't have to work at some place like Walmart. You get a degree, you work your way up the ladder somewhere, you find a different job in a different field that hasn't been overrun by Mr. Walton's company.

That's something I don't understand--FEMA, you say many other jobs died a horrible death because of Walmart. Retail's not the only gig in town.

Jehosephat, I personally have never had a job with benefits or job security, and I've had some (otherwise) pretty decent jobs. But everywhere I've worked, if my boss didn't like me then I was either fired or my life was a living hell.

If they treat their workers like crap, there's nothing forcing those people to work there. A newspaper only costs fifty cents, and you can check the want ads on your lunch break. As far as shopping there, I'd rather not drive all around town, burn half a tank of gas and spend an extra $50 on the stuff I need when I can get it there in one stop and cheaper.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by FEMA
Try raising a family on 10 bucks an hour. Try paying for cloths, insurance, gas, a mortgage, car payment, kid's needs, property tax, utilities and groceries with about $595.00 take-home every two weeks. Yes, some people can do it, but ask them if they are enjoying their quality of life, if there is anything more they need or could use. Ask them if their kid will be going to Harvard or ANY post secondary learning institution.

Easy to get by when you are living at home at a 10 buck wage - try raising a family on it and getting them all the things they need, not deserve, but just need. Then factor in one of your children getting sick and needing extensive medical help - is that ten bucks an hour going to get it for them? Cover all their meds., doctors, tests, surgery?


Maybe these factors should have been thought of before starting a family in the first place. But no, people want to somehow blame Wal-mart for their own lack of responsibility and their own failure to control their reproduction. I don't think much of Wal-mart and don't shop there mostly because their products are low quality and largely come from China, but it's not their fault that you had children you can't support, or that you can't or won't improve you ability to make money. You should have thought about that before you got busy, but I suppose reproductive responsibility is too much to expect from people.

I have to laugh at some of these people. Suppose every Wal-mart were to permanently close tomorrow. Do people somehow think that new, better paying jobs are just suddenly going to appear out of thin air?

As for Wal-mart and sin, well, you'd pretty much have to buy into the concept of sin in the first place to believe that. Competition is the way things work in this universe. It is natural law that the strong survive and that the weak perish. Why would anyone think that this principle shouldn't apply in Wal-mart's case?

[edited for grammer]


[edit on 10-12-2005 by Ambient Sound]



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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"Maybe these factors should be thought of before starting a family in the first place"


Hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20, but the reality is many folks who saw their previous jobs dry up because of Wal-Mart's march on the mindless have no recourse but to submit to employment at and by the hand of Wal-Mart. They already had families. What you suggest is that Wal-Mart is the FIRST stop on the job search for some kid who got his girlfriend in trouble. I'm at a loss to see how you could miss the point so completely.


"Oh yes, $9.25 an hour with no health benifits and the lack of job secuirity where if your boss or supervisor doesn't like you he can fire you or make your live a living hell. Not to metion lay-offs or cut hours after the holidays. 9.25 is nothing and is well below the level of self-sufficiatancy.


Read above, right from a past Wal-Mart employee. He saw it, he lived it, became a victim to Wal-Mart management. But that's only from the horse's mouth, why believe him? Right? Indeed, Wal-Mart has lost Sam's vision.

And to those who think price is the common denominator - are you all driving Lada's and wearing running shoes? Didn't think so.


"I have to laugh at some of these people. Suppose every Wal-mart were to permanently close tomorrow. Do people somehow think that new, better paying jobs are just suddenly going to appear out of thin air?


While you are laughing at these people, laugh about the good paying jobs that were lost to Wal-Mart in the first place. Break into knee slapping laughter at the jobs leaving the US manufacturing sector while "these people" work for a fraction of what they once earned. Errupt into rib-splitting Gaffas' as "these people" discover they can no longer afford American made products much less anything else. Peel back your lips and roar in delirium at "these people."


"That's something I don't understand--FEMA, you say many other jobs died a horrible death because of Walmart. Retail's not the only gig in town."


It's about quality of life. Your statement shows you don't fully understand the cause and effect relationship that this type of predatory practice has on a community. Consider the janitor at the local school. He is not subject to what Wal-Mart does, right? Wrong.

His job is lost because the shop owner who sold flowers went out of business because Wal-Mart started selling flowers as a lost liter (something sold at a loss to encourage store traffic in order to sell another product to the impulse buyer) to get folks to come in. That shop owner moved to a bigger town taking her kids and family with her. Tax revenue was lost from her sales. Her employee now seeks work - will likely be hired by Wal-Mart for less money. The school board is now looking at closing another school because of dwindling enrollment as families leave in search for better paying jobs.

While the example is a simple one, it remains a true one based on statistics. Do you think people are up in arms because they simply want to complain? They don't like free enterprise? No. The stories of what Wal-Mart has done to towns and cities across America are legion. The stories of what they've done and continue to do to employees can fill volumes.

I own a business, a couple of them infact, aside from being a firefighter. I start my employees at 20 dollars (well, $19.45) an hour with 6 month reviews and raises based on performance of their tasks. I also, after they are fully vested in the company (9 months), offer to pay for their education - yes, their education. My company pays on a pro-rated basis. If the employee gets 80% or better my company pays for their education in full. If their marks fall below 80% to 70%+ then we only pay for 80% and the employee picks up the other 20%. If they fall below 70% we pay only 60% and if they fall below 60% they are on their own and we pay nothing. At every turn we encourage our employees to be the best they can be and our HR department will bring resources to bear on whatever they need to achieve excellence. So far we have had 4 employees get their Masters degrees. Eleven have earned BAs. Fourty-two have completed highschool upgrading with honors.

The reason I offer this is not entirely unselfish. These people stay with the company, they do not run off looking for something better. With their Masters degrees they bring new knowledge and inspiration to the company, they enter solid management positions and help the company move on to bigger and better things, see business potential, market trends. It now costs companies in general about 50-thousand dollars to have an employee leave. We offer an Employee Stock Option Plan (ESOP) and a MPP, Money Purchase Plan, wherein they are set comfortably for retirement upon leaving us.

We start people on the production floor so they develop an understanding of what we do from the ground up. They then can compete for a shift managment/team leader position. After that they become a operations manager. From there they are encouraged to join the business unit as a manager. From there they are encouraged to move into upper management as an executive.

If all you can see in your future is $9.25 you're not the person for this company. In fact, here is a little known trick HR departments will play on would-be employees. We will ask what you see yourself doing with the company should you be hired, AND what you want to accomplish with your life.

Do you know how many people have no idea what they want to do with their life? Or how many don't have the vision to see themselves working at a higher level than the entery level position they are applying for? It's astounding and a one-way trip to the garbage for their application.

The issue behind this thread as I see it is: "Is capitalism without conscience acceptable?" I say it is not nor do things have to be that way. You have to be a responsible player in your business community along with being a responsible person in your living community. My companies do not stand alone in our business practices; there are many out there that do what we do and more for their employees.

Question is, do you think Wal-Mart can do better?

Edited for typo, it's a curse.





[edit on 10-12-2005 by FEMA]




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