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Reading a new book.

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posted on Nov, 17 2005 @ 10:44 AM
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I purchased this book in Barnes and Noble a week ago. Just looking for something to read.

I was quite surprised about the content of this book
The Book is titled...

Boyd
by Robert Coram

This book is a biography about a US Air Force fighter pilot who changed the nature of how the military thinks about tactics and designs its airplanes.
I am currently about half way through the book and it is quite a revelation about the pentagon and military bureaucracys. Also fascinating is his narrative about the changing practice of military tactics and how it applys to the military today.
Also a revelation to me was the portion where he describes flight data on Russian fighters and the fact that their fighting envelope is superior to our airplanes at the time the data was posted. This revelation really shook up the high brass in our military. A fact which was verified by the numerous shoot downs of American planes in Vietnam by Vietnamese pilots in Migs.
Boyd's conclusion was that there was something very wrong with our planes , our tactics and our pilot training.


Some of you may find this book intresting.

Thanks,
Orangetom




posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 05:34 PM
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This book I found very intresting. Paticulary in the manner which the Pentagon and Congress , Contractors, Lobbiests work and function to get projects pushed through. Often many of these projects are flawed but because of politics they get pushed through anyway. The textbook mess up use in this book was Robert McNamara's TFX or also known as the F 111 fighter bomber.
This book was very enlightening in this arena. Also about the Air Forces attempts to kill off the A 10 Warthog program. It seems to the Air Force that the A 10 program was not as sexy or attractive as the F16 or F 15 programs. Hence the attempts to kill the program off. The still want to kill the program off but the plane turned out to be so well built and functional that it would up staying in the front lines for some time. Many of them have been relegated to National Guard uints today where the Airmen love it. They found their niche in the two Gulf Wars and proved out all the assets and money s spent on them.
Recommend this book to those intrested in the inner working of the politics surrounding the Pentagon.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 19 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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hey orangetom1999,

Have you read National Defense by James Fallows?

It is somewhat dated now, having been written back in the the early eighties, but is very enlightening about some of the maschinations that went on with the development of the M-16 and the F-15.

For instance the Stoner Rifle, from which the M-16 was developed, was a highly innovative and effective weapon as brought forth by its designer. Problem was, Stoner was a civilian and not within the DOD's development establishment.
DOD didn't like the idea of not having input on the design so, to assuage their bureaucratic selves, they changed the powder component of the cartridges, a change which had disastrous effects for the weapons initial deployment.

It's a good read, even at this distance, and speaks volumes about the Military/Industrial Complex.



posted on Nov, 20 2005 @ 08:41 AM
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No I have not read that book but thanks for the title I will add it to my research and to purchase list.

It is intresting to see the comments on what weapons work and what doesnt on ATS and it is very telling. Much of the new high tech stuff does not appear to survive well in a desert enviornment. Some of the older designs seem to do well like the M2 .50 Cal.
Yes I know about the alterations to Eugene Stoners design. I believe it was originally designed around the 7.62x51 cartridge.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 04:27 AM
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once you actually look around, you'd be amazed at the very promising projects that the Pentagon and other departments just shunt off to the side to make way for the crap that looks good on camera. The Fairchild A-10 warthog is an amazing aircraft, manoeuvrable, able to take a lot of fire, go low level, and designed specifically to kill tanks, but they want it gone just so something else can take the limelight, something inferior.
I reckon the government needs a good shaking down, personally.
How dare them scrap the B-70 program!!!



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 04:41 AM
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Originally posted by apocalypticon
For instance the Stoner Rifle, from which the M-16 was developed, was a highly innovative and effective weapon as brought forth by its designer. Problem was, Stoner was a civilian and not within the DOD's development establishment.
DOD didn't like the idea of not having input on the design so, to assuage their bureaucratic selves, they changed the powder component of the cartridges, a change which had disastrous effects for the weapons initial deployment.


Part of the problem was the initial batch to go to Vietnam had (I believe) only one rifling groove, leading to bullet tumble, which led to massive wounding and a guaranteed kill of the enemy, especially on full-auto.

When it went into production it was given the standard military multiple rifling grooves to guarantee accuracy. Read Blackhawk Down to see what Master Sergeant Paul Howe thought of that perfect accuracy in Mogadishu.

The other problems came pretty much directly from Robert McNamara's office. As a cost-cutting measure the bore was not chromed (hmm, we're not going to a humid jungle anytime soon, are we?) and there was no cleaning-kit manufactured, which led some soldiers carrying the first official shipments to Vietnam to assume the rifle didn't need cleaning.

Stupid, I know, but imagine, you've been told to hand in your M14 and you've been given this plastic Star Trek toy without any training to go with it or a cleaining kit. Obviously it doesn't need one.

An ex-colleague of my dad's had his Owen Gun withdrawn from service and replaced with an M16 fresh out of the box. While he was on patrol!



posted on Nov, 21 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Exellent, This book seems vey interesting, If I can find it here I sure will read it... Thanks for the tip...



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 12:58 AM
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I liked the A 10 Warthog from the very begining. You could look at her and tell she was not glamourous..but strictly buisness. One look at her ugly snout and you just knew. Any time a tool can take a beating and still get up ..and keep going it is a huge plus.

The A 10 reminds me of the Lee Enfield or SMLE or sometimes called the "smelly." The rifle the Brits used for so long. Though it underwent basic improvements over the years of service...it was not a beautiful weapon. But...it was strictly buisness and practical. Could take a beating and keep going. Nothing glamourous about the Lee Enfield ..to this very day. The Lee Enfield has stood the test of time. One day I will own a Enflied...in 7.62X51 caliber though ..instead of the .303 British. The rifle however can more than handle this modern cartridge. Its that tough.
I think the Warthog will do the same thing. They will be hard pressed to find a more effecient design for the same price.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 02:54 AM
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I presume you guys have heard of an author by the name of Ralph Peters, ex-Colonel in teh US Army. Does pretty good fiction.

He tried an experiment in one of his books, called Traitor I think, in which he tried to write a noir thriller, instead of a "techno"-thriller. His bad guys were the defence establishment lobbyists. It was the first time I'd seen the way they operate spelled out so plainly. The discovery channel certainly never tells you about the chicanery involved in getting those beautiful birds they swoon over up in the air.



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Yeah..I agree about the lobbiest for these corporations.
This is what Robert Coram describes in his book about Colonel Boyd. Boyd was in the buisness of not to subtly telling many of these contractors off...point blank ..telling them their stuff was no good. They didnt take well to it but their main problem was they very seldom answers to his positions. They had to sneak around the back through thier political contacts ..seldome ever to improve their product. The lobbying pressure was very intense.
Also remember ..many of the retired military personel went to work in thier retirement for many of these companys or lobbys. Including Generals and Admirals. IT became a system feeding on itself...often at the expense of our people..
Robert Coram in his book on Boyd covers alot of this sneaking in through the backdoor .political philosophy in our military procurement process.


Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Nov, 23 2005 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
I presume you guys have heard of an author by the name of Ralph Peters, ex-Colonel in teh US Army. Does pretty good fiction.


I've read Red Army and War in 2020. War in 2020 was an interesting book to say the least, with the Japanese becoming the dominant military power using the Arab countries to fight a proxy war against America.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 04:07 AM
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I only read War in 2020 a couple of years ago (I only found Peters by accident in a remaindered bin a couple of years ago!), so it was well out of date with it's references to the KGB and, of course, the Japanese "bubble" had already burst, but I did like his projections.

Scary thought now is that Putin's taking Russia back towards that kind of thing...

I've only read Twilight of Heroes, Traitor, War in 2020 and The Devils Garden, which of course ends in (one of) my part of the world.







 
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