CIA secret prisons = Concentration Camps

As we are hearing more about the CIA's secret prisons it reminds me of the concentration camps that the Nazi's ran. Many claim that they had heard rumors about the camps but did not think that they existed until they were liberted.

Secret prisons...no worry about civil rights,,,

scary

Really? They've been rounding up all members of an ethnic class and exterminiating them in these camps?

Actually, a "Concentration Camp" isn't a nazi invention. Apparently, the spainish came up with them during their colonial/imperial wars, and they weren't death camps, like the nazi ones; intended to destroy the people in them. They were a way to control a rebellious population, by concentrating that population in a location and controlling them directly. The british made great use of them in the later stage of the Boer War, shuttling Boer civilians into concentration camps, and controlling when they left, what arms they had (none), etc, in an effort to stop the boer commandos that were fighting an insurgency against them. They weren't pleasant, and lots of peopel died in them, but they weren't death camps.

The US has nothing like this. These prisons are secret prisons that hold detainees, in foreign countries even, not civilian populations in country. The real Concentration Camp hasn't been used yet in the Terror Wars, but they might. An entire city likesay Falluja might have its populace removed and put into government run camps, where the government provides for them and prevents the insurgency from 'feeding' off of their support, and perhaps then woudl be an appropriate time to talk about Concentration Camps. You know, when there're actually concentration camps being used eh?

Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed
a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45

Extermination Camp
Extermination camp (German Vernichtungslager) was the term applied to a group of death camps set up by Nazi Germany during World War II for the express purpose of killing the Jews of Europe, although members of some other groups whom the Nazis wished to exterminate, such as Roma (Gypsies), Soviet prisoners of war, Poles and many others, were also killed in these camps. This was part of what has become known as the Holocaust.

Nygdan, you have made an age old mistake of what a concentration camp actually is. It is a prison/camp, set up for people who disagree with a Government on the basis of a political ideology [one reason]. The Government doesn't have to kill people or round up all of the people which fit into this sub-culture.

Really is the much difference? Remember that the Camps at first were not for life. People did leave them, like the Soviet Gulag's. It was later on that they shifted to becoming extermination camps.

Groups like Al Qaeda are a political organisation, even if we do not like to admit such a thing. If you round these people up and place them in a 'Prison' that is a Concentration Camp. Is it a bad thing? That falls down to personnal opinion.

If a country is to survive, ugly things are necessary. This is the reason why our "rights" in the United States will eventually lead to the complete destruction of the country.

The public's "right" to know has crippled the government's ability to do anything in secret including spying, detainment, even non deadly "humiliating" torture etc. When a soldier shoots a combatant in this so called war in Iraq, he is put in jail because there is a camera there to record it. (Like it or not, these are all things a government needs to do in order to win a war, survive as a society etc. Maybe 1% of the people that read my reply will be rooted in harsh reality and actually understand that).

Searching people in the subway, is a violation of your "rights." Someone will eventually set off a dirty bomb or full fledged nuke in a subway or other crowded place in a major U.S. city, then we won't have to worry about being searched in public, because Manhattan (or Chicago etc) will be empty, just like Chernobyl.

Non-Citizens of this country have "rights" too. The right to pour into this country, thousands at a time, rack up billions of dollars worth of medical bills having litters of babies in our hospitals, kill our wives and sisters in drunk driving accidents (or rape them etc) and then be deported, only to come back a month later and try this whole crazy ride again. It is their "right" to do that, because we are not allowed to have secure borders. After all, that would be racist.

The problem is, this country is quickly running out of moderates. We are a country full of disgusting, smelly dirty hippies that should have overdosed a long time ago, and on the other side, we have ultra conservative religious fanatics that want to control every facet of everyone's life.

Choose your group: the ACLU or Focus on the Family.

We are done for.

RustyShackleford, if the United State's had not done so many of their invasions, attacks, etc on the Middle East, Africa, South American and so on and so fourth - without reason, it is likely many of these groups wouldn't have a problem with the United States.

If you give them no reason to hate you, it is likely they will not hate you.

As for your little spit on immigrants, where is it you live? United State's? I assume you must be a pure blood Native American? Otherwise you are an immigrant [in fact they are too.] Like it or not, you were not from that continent.

The arguement that your Government can't do something in secret, is firstly a joke [because they do things in secret] and secondly those actions need to be stopped. Their involvement in the murders, bombings and problems they cause in other Nation's are resulting in what we see today. Just like the Chinese are having in many parts of their Nation - the only difference is, the media reports [some of] it so we can find out about it. If you would like it another way, stop reading ATSNN, in fact much of this site gains information from the Freedom of Information Act [etc], stop watching the news on television, listening to music and reading newspapers, books and so on and so fourth.

If you would rather the Government didn't have to be honest to us, stop voting because lies are one of the most undemocratic things in existance today adn it is people who would allow the Government to rule them, rather than be ruled by them [people] that will result in the loss of the United State's to a dictatorship. Be glad you can think what you think, say what you want and question your Governemnt because when you can't you'll pray to get these days back.

That's exactly right, millions of people, including world leaders fantasize about our total destruction. And that is with good reason... we are constantly butting in to every other countries business. We are either launching missles or sending some gap tooth secretary to tell someone how to run their country. I think we need to mind our own business and focus on this country, which, thanks to the extreme conservatives, AND the extreme liberals, this country is being FLUSHED down the toilet.

Yes I do live in the US and no I am not Native American. My grandpa came from Sicily when he was 10. He worked his was from nothing to a small fortune in a few decades. But he also became a citizen, paid taxes and joined the Air Force during WW2. So I definetly know what you are saying about the "we are all immigrants" thing. I don't disagree with you actually on most of what you say. I shouldn't have used the word immigrant... I mean people who come into this country illegaly, use our emergency rooms for the flu etc, never pay taxes, never bother to learn English, have litters of babies, bog down our schools with ESL students (English as a 2nd language, aka mostly kids who were BORN here and still don't know the language). Yes, it just so happens that most of those people are from Mexico. This is not an attack on all Mexicans. Now, I know that if our country was on the border with France or another country, it would be the SAME situation. Because we allow it to happen. It just so happens that we are bordered with Mexico and their living conditions are 3rd world, so they see an open door, with no restrictions or rules and of course they are going to take it. Again, it is THIS country's fault and we will all pay for it with taxes and probably an Muslim extremist or 2 who sneak through the same border and kill our family or friends...or maybe us.

As far as the spying, torture etc... again I go back to the moderate and reasonable. I think if this government would start actually focusing on this country, instead of constantly and consistently butting in to everone else's business we wouldn't even have to talk about this. But we have created a situation for ourselves, where the government MUST have some breathing room away from the press. NOT this current government, with this president, but in the future we are going to need to clean up some messes and protect ourselves without a damn camera following our military around or some reporter "uncovering" a CIA prison.

[edit on 19-11-2005 by RustyShackleford]

Well let us put this into an easy to handle arguement.

Your grandparents are immigrants from Sicily. Many immigrants from Italy and Sicily, came to the United State's and caused what problems? Sicilian Mafia...they cost lives, cost tax money, caused problems for the medical profession and also education system. Should your grandparents have been deported because of these people?

The same arguement can be made about illegal immigrants from Mexico. If the border is fully shut down, closed off, etc, people who will benefit society are harmed because of those who won't. It is like locking us all up, because one of us might kill.

Many illegal immigrants do pay tax money, do learn English and so on and so fourth - however because they are illegal they have to use someone else's numbers.

In fact, as I have said many times before. The best way to help illegal immigrants is a clean up of the immigration system. So that they get through in 1month not 2years - like it took my friend in Canada so she could move to be with her partner [of 9 years].

if Cosa Nostra was on a larger scale in this country and crippled the schools on the East Coast and bankrupt certain hospitals etc like we are seeing in Arizona, Texas, California etc, then YES illegal Italian immigrants should have been deported. I agree with you on the fact that it takes WAY to long to get papers in this country. My girlfriend is from Russia...she lost her green card and is still waiting on a replacement 3 YEARS LATER! Which actually proves my point again... this country is just plain screwed.

Anyway this argument is pointless. We both agree changes need to be made...and sorry to the original poster for hijacking this thread.

Originally posted by Odium
Nygdan, you have made an age old mistake of what a concentration camp actually is. It is a prison/camp, set up for people who disagree with a Government on the basis of a political ideology

This is what I said it was.

The Government doesn't have to kill people or round up all of the people which fit into this sub-culture.

They're not rounding up a section of the society, they are capturing people engaged in acts of war. They aren't concentrating entire populations.

If you round these people up and place them in a 'Prison' that is a Concentration Camp.[ /quote]
Technically no but close enough, if it was actually attempted it'd be more or less the same sure.

Is it a bad thing? That falls down to personnal opinion.

Is it a bad thing to arrest members of al-qaida? Of course not. Its a terrorist organization, merely because it has political goals hardly means all its members aren't defacto criminals.

[edit on 20-11-2005 by Nygdan]

Nygdan, there are still many problems with them capturing these people. Take Afghanistan for example, the Northern Alliance [who are no better than the Taliban] gave over their enemies. Nobody knows if they were part of the Taliban or just rival tribes they needed clearing out of the way to benefit themselves and to be honest, I tend not to trust drug lords and what they say.

Is it a bad thing to arrest them? Depends on whose view you take on it, doesn't it?

Why did 'we' go after them? Because of 9/11 which killed innocent people. However the United State's has killed innocent people, both in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East [and Africa] for decades now. When we go 'hunting' for terrorists we only help to fill out their ranks.

What does that have to do with anything? These still aren't actual concentration camps, they're at worst prisons with some innocent people in them. Thats not a concentration camp. A population camp is used to control an entire population, not by 'intimidation' or threat of being thrown in to jail, but by actually moving people out of their homes and into a secure site where their movements are completely controlled. Its a method of direct and powerful control, not merely arresting political leaders.

Nygdan, how did the Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany start out?

They were first used to place people who opposed the Government on a Political level and could instigate a revolution in 'Germany'. It was then expanded from their to begin to take more people and more people.

I'd rather no prison existed where innocent people got locked up, especailly innocent people who do not even get a trial.

Originally posted by Odium
Nygdan, how did the Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany start out?

They were first used to place people who opposed the Government on a Political level and could instigate a revolution in 'Germany'.

And at that point they were not concentration camps. When it became a method to concentrate and control a diffuse population, then it became a concentration camp.

I'd rather no prison existed where innocent people got locked up,

Outside of nicey nice fairyland, we'll have to have them. Yes, even ones where innocent people get mistakenly locked up and where all sorts of bad things happen.

Again, this hardly makes all prisons concentration camps, and concentration camps have nothing to do with politics. WIth a concentration camp you lock up everyone in a population, not merely anyone with a particular ideology. The US operates no concentration camps, nor any death camps.

Okay, seeing as nobody can agree on wether to call them prisons, or concentration camps, or whatever... can we agree to call them, oh, say, X-Cells?

Squabbling over what they are called is only clogging up the forum. Lets pick a name and continue the discussion.

[edit on 28-11-2005 by johnsky]

Originally posted by Odium
Nygdan, how did the Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany start out?

As detention centers.
Nygdan is correct, btw.





seekerof

[edit on 28-11-2005 by Seekerof]

www.sianews.com...

FEMA CONCENTRATION CAMPS: Locations and Executive Orders





There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft's list.
The Rex 84 Program was established on the reasoning that if a "mass exodus" of illegal aliens crossed the Mexican/US border, they would be quickly rounded up and detained in detention centers by FEMA. Rex 84 allowed many military bases to be closed down and to be turned into prisons.

It goes on to say:

Where are these camps?

ALABAMA
Opelika - Military compound either in or very near town.
Aliceville - WWII German POW camp - capacity 15,000
Ft. McClellan (Anniston) - Opposite side of town from Army Depot;
Maxwell AFB (Montgomery) - Civilian prison camp established under Operation Garden Plot, currently operating with support staff and small inmate population.
Talladega - Federal prison "satellite" camp.

ALASKA
Wilderness - East of Anchorage. No roads, Air & Railroad access only. Estimated capacity of 500,000 Elmendorf AFB - Northeast area of Anchorage - far end of base. Garden Plot facility.
Eielson AFB - Southeast of Fairbanks. Operation Garden Plot facility.
Ft. Wainwright - East of Fairbanks

ARIZONA
Ft. Huachuca - 20 miles from Mexican border, 30 miles from Nogales Rex '84 facility.
Pinal County - on the Gila River - WWII Japanese detention camp. May be renovated.
Yuma County - Colorado River - Site of former Japanese detention camp (near proving grounds). This site was completely removed in 1990 according to some reports.
Phoenix - Federal Prison Satellite Camp. Main federal facility expanded.
Florence - WWII prison camp NOW RENOVATED, OPERATIONAL with staff & 400 prisoners, operational capacity of 3,500.
Wickenburg - Airport is ready for conversion; total capacity unknown. Davis-Monthan AFB (Tucson) - Fully staffed and presently holding prisoners!!
Sedona - site of possible UN base.

ARKANSAS
Ft. Chaffee (near Fort Smith, Arkansas) - Has new runway for aircraft, new camp facility with cap of 40,000 prisoners Pine Bluff Arsenal - This location also is the repository for B-Z nerve agent, which causes sleepiness, dizziness, stupor; admitted use is for civilian control. Jerome - Chicot/Drew Counties - site of WWII Japanese camps Rohwer - Descha County - site of WWII Japanese camps Blythville AFB - Closed airbase now being used as camp. New wooden barracks have been constructed at this location. Classic decorations - guard towers, barbed wire, high fences. Berryville - FEMA facility located east of Eureka Springs off Hwy. 62. Omaha - Northeast of Berryville near Missouri state line, on Hwy 65 south of old wood processing plant. Possible crematory facility.

CALIFORNIA
Vandenburg AFB - Rex 84 facility, located near Lompoc & Santa Maria. Internment facility is located near the oceanside, close to Space Launch Complex #6, also called "Slick Six". The launch site has had "a flawless failure record" and is rarely used. Norton AFB - (closed base) now staffed with UN according to some sources. Tule Lake - area of "wildlife refuge", accessible by unpaved road, just inside Modoc County. Fort Ord - Closed in 1994, this facility is now an urban warfare training center for US and foreign troops, and may have some "P.O.W. - C.I." enclosures. Twentynine Palms Marine Base - Birthplace of the infamous "Would you shoot American citizens?" Quiz. New camps being built on "back 40". Oakdale - Rex 84 camp capable of holding at least 20,000 people. 90 mi. East of San Francisco. Terminal Island - (Long Beach) located next to naval shipyards operated by ChiCom shipping interests. Federal prison facility located here. Possible deportation point. Ft. Irwin - FEMA facility near Barstow. Base is designated inactive but has staffed camp. McClellan AFB - facility capable for 30,000 - 35,000 Sacramento - Army Depot - No specific information at this time. Mather AFB - Road to facility is blocked off by cement barriers and a stop sign. Sign states area is restricted; as of 1997 there were barbed wire fences pointing inward, a row of stadium lights pointed toward an empty field, etc. Black boxes on poles may have been cameras.

COLORADO
Trinidad - WWII German/Italian camp being renovated. Granada - Prowers County - WWII Japanese internment camp Ft. Carson - Along route 115 near Canon City

CONNECTICUT, DELAWARE
No data available.

FLORIDA
Avon Park - Air Force gunnery range, Avon Park has an on-base "correctional facility" which was a former WWII detention camp. Camp Krome - DoJ detention/interrogation center, Rex 84 facility Eglin AFB - This base is over 30 miles long, from Pensacola to Hwy 331 in De Funiak Springs. High capacity facility, presently manned and populated with some prisoners. Pensacola - Federal Prison Camp Everglades - It is believed that a facility may be carved out of the wilds here.

And the list goes on and on. Also, notice their explanation for closing down some bases***

Personally, i think this should scare the bejeesus out of everyone.

Originally posted by Nygdan
WIth a concentration camp you lock up everyone in a population, not merely anyone with a particular ideology.

What was the Gulag then? If not a Camp to concentrate people of a particular ideology.