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NEWS: USA Admin Seeks To Exclude CIA From Detainee Torture laws

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posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 04:49 AM
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The Bush administration is seeking to exclude the CIA from new legislation banning the cruel and degrading treatment of US detainees. The efforts to bring about the new legislation were led by Arizona Republican senator McCain who has sought to make the ARMY field Manual the standard for the interrogation of detainees and to bar cruel and degrading treatment. The Bush administration stated that the new legislation will tie it's hands in the interrogation of detainees and has threatened to veto a 440 Billion dollar Pentgon funding bill if it's demands regarding the CIA exclusions are not met.
 



www.abc.net.au
The proposal states the legislation approved by the US Senate shall not apply to counter-terrorism operations abroad or to operations conducted by "an element of the United States Government" other than the Defence Department, the newspaper reports, citing two unidentified sources.

The report says Vice President Dick Cheney, with CIA Director Porter Goss present, handed the proposal to Senator John McCain last Thursday.

Senator McCain rejected the proposed exemption at the meeting with Mr Cheney, the newspaper says, citing a government source who spoke on condition of anonymity.

A White House spokesman was not immediately available for comment.

Senator McCain, an Arizona Republican who was tortured while a prisoner of war in Vietnam, led an effort in the Senate to establish the Army field manual as the standard for interrogations and bar cruel and degrading treatment of anyone in US military custody.

Bucking a White House House veto threat, the Senate overwhelmingly approved a bipartisan amendment to establish rules for detainee interrogation and treatment.

A number of lawmakers who supported the amendment have said abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and other US military prisons have damaged the United States' international standing and risked retribution against US soldiers who may be captured in the future.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


The Bush administration is condoning torture of detainees even by seeking to allow this exclusion to the new laws.




[edit on 25-10-2005 by Mayet]




posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 06:51 AM
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Wow - no Comments? How come? Where are all the die-hard Bush Lovers?

What else would you expect from people such as Dick Chaney...

Apparently the only Sane Mind here is (surprisingly!) Republican senator McCain, who himself was a victim of Torture, and knows how it all goes.

Torture is Bad People! Rememer, Vietnam and what the VC did to the US soldiers? They were also BAD. Remember?



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah


Torture is Bad People! Rememer, Vietnam and what the VC did to the US soldiers? They were also BAD. Remember?


Or remember Iraq 2004/5 with what the US Army are doing to the those in the Internment camps (to be direct and to the truth).



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 08:47 AM
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It's about time somebody in the Republican party started standing up for what was right. Now I don't like some of these people anymore than Cheney, but this is the United States of America! Some of the world may disagree, but most of us have higher standards than torture and cruel treatment.

McCain is really on a role, and definatly appears to be gearing up for a run for presidency. Standing up to Cheney is no easy task, and I'm glad he's not be put down by anybody. Sure would be a shame if some mysterious accident were to happen sometime soon though. Remember what happened to Kennedy? Same thing could happen to McCain if he's not supportive enough of the CIA.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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The United States is the biggest terrorist in the world. They condone terrorism and this proves it. I think invading Iraq and killing thousands of children might just be called fascism but I may be wrong. We are getting ever closer to the global fascist state. They are simply saying 'accept it now because we'll use it on you later'. It's so OBVIOUS!



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 02:56 PM
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Okay, first time poster here.

Part of the perpetual cycle of national security is intelligence gathering. The object in the most basic form is to find out what said enemy is planning to do before it happens, and avert such action. Much of this intelligence is gathered by means of international assets & foreign contacts throughout the world (I'm speaking from a United States perspective), while other information is gathered via the technological route, be it via NSA systems, etc. There is in fact, another method of information gathering: Interrogation.

Lets get a few definitions out of the way here:

in-ter-ro-gate tr.v. - to question formally and systematically

tor-ture n. - the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

mo-ti-vate tr.v. – to provide with a motive

Interrogation

Interrogation is a very heavily studied art form that has been perfected throughout the years by EVERY nation in the world in one way or another. Interrogation itself is not really harmful to the person being questioned, being that torture is not always involved (e.g. police questioning a citizen regarding a crime). What interrogation really does is motivates one into telling a possibly concealed truth by certain means. Looking back at the example, a police detective may be able to just ask the right questions to get the information he or she was looking for.

Interrogation on the Battlefield

Interrogation in a battlefield setting is very much like anything else, except that you are limited by a few factors. The first limiting factor is that of time. With war (or combat) being as fluid as it is, the information a particular captured soldier may be aware of may change if too much time is taken to extract said information. The second factor is location. If you are not in an established safe location to conduct a structured interrogation of a prisoner, then you are limited by the methods that you can use. Third, and more importantly (especially in a war-like setting) is the Geneva Convention. This agreement, adopted on 12 August 1949, allows certain rights to prisoners that fall into particular categories. In a nutshell, you can almost consider them part of the ‘rules of war’. Lets face it: Nobody follows them. Anyone who ever got into a fight in high school will tell you that you will never win a fight by fighting fair.

Interrogation of Religious Extremists

I mentioned the definition of motivation a few paragraphs up. Speaking on the subject of religious extremists/radicals, this word holds a whole new meaning. Combined with the word ‘dedication’ (meaning, among other things: self-sacrificing devotion), this creates an individual that is not susceptible to the same types of methods of interrogation that may work on a conventional prisoner. Asking questions in a mere verbal fashion offers no motivation for this prisoner to talk, due to his dedication to his religion. With the belief that the particular conflict and/or information he is involved with is being used for a religious purpose, be it Jihad or other objectives, the prisoner is likely to stay silent for fear of punishment far greater than anything on this earth (as per his beliefs).

Legislation Issues of Today

With regards to this particular conflict that the United States is involved in, the legislation being passed is to bind the US Military forces to certain regulations regarding the use of interrogation. Personally, it’s a great idea. Soldiers should not be involved in any sort of interrogation past verbal questioning. They’re not trained for it.

Now, the reason everyone is all excited and complaining about this news, is that they are making considerations for the organizations that do in fact have professional interrogation specialists. Scientists of human mind, chemistry, psychology, as well as more conventionally trained operatives. The CIA is the United States international intelligence service. What do you think they do when they have a potential intelligence source that is withholding information?

Look back at my section on religious extremists.

In order to overwhelm this motivation & dedication of said prisoner’s religious beliefs, an interrogation specialist uses many methods; yes, including methods that may be considered ‘torture’ by definition. Pain & agony combined with psychological manipulation may, over time, tip the scales of the prisoner’s devotion to his religion, causing his own desire for self-preservation—once masked by religious beliefs—to spill out, causing information to amazingly begin flowing.

Closing

The average American, or citizen of any civilized country, wants to wake up in the morning, go to work, come home, see his family, and be glad that their safe. They don’t stay up at night wondering if one person may be feeling a bit of discomfort in order for their government to prevent actions that may result in massive loss of life. If you still feel it necessary to question the government’s methods of intelligence gathering, and criticize it, fine. But do not complain when the next terrorist attack happens in your back yard, because the government was not allowed to use all of its assets to prevent its occurrence.

Oh, and one more thing. You can blame the Bush Administration all you want…but these things have been going on for longer than most of you have been alive.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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I've stated it before... torture is a losers last resort. Anyone that does it or promotes it should be charged with crimes against humanity and face appropriate punishment. I don't care what uniform they wear or what flag they operate under. Its embarassing to know we have person like this supposedly representing our country. There is no difference between someone like this and Saddam.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by switch100
The average American, or citizen of any civilized country, wants to wake up in the morning, go to work, come home, see his family, and be glad that their safe. They don’t stay up at night wondering if one person may be feeling a bit of discomfort in order for their government to prevent actions that may result in massive loss of life.


Actually, since you are a "new poster", you ought to be allowed a little leaway. However, if you have been a lurker for any amount of time before joining, you will notice that this is a Conspiracy Site for one, and for another, the main motto here is to "Deny Ignorance", and included in that is to do exactly that which you mention in the piece I quoted from you above. Yes, we (many of us at least I belive) do stay up at night and wonder if one, or not just one, but thousands of people may be feeling more than a bit of discomfort in order for their government to really do....what, exactly? I don't think that the current US Government is too concerned about massive loss of life, do you?

If there was such concern, then this country would not be fighting such a senseless war against a country who was not what-so-ever any sort of threat to the United States or it's citizens. Not to mention the U.S. soldiers that have been publically reported dead (I believe the official count just reached 2000 today), I wonder just how many countless dead and permanently injured Iraqi civilians and permanently maimed U.S. troops are a result of the selfish motives of the Bush Administration to use this war for their own personal gain!




If you still feel it necessary to question the government’s methods of intelligence gathering, and criticize it, fine. But do not complain when the next terrorist attack happens in your back yard, because the government was not allowed to use all of its assets to prevent its occurrence.


If "we the people", who are supposedly being represented by our government (obviously government, and this Administration even more so have long since forgotten the concept of a true democratic government) do not question their methods and motives for turning the lives of countless people and their families upside down, permanently, well then we would be no better than the ones inflicting the torture in the first place. And I suppose that you accept what they tell yoiu, that each and every person who they abuse and degrade all in the name of "interrogation" is truly guilty, and that they do indeed have all important information? What about the ones who are completely innocent? Have you ever thought about walking in their shoes?

And I, personally am not concerned in the least that a "terrorist attack" will be happening in the way the Bush Administration tries to sell it as. However, if an attack does occur, and a "terrorist" could be anyone who causes death and destruction for no reason other than malicious, self-serving ones; my main concern would be what new restrictions would be put on our civil liberties by our government under the ruse of giving the public a false sense of temporary security! That is my main concern, and while I can't speak for others, I believe that I am not alone in this thinking.

And just one other thought: Have you even wondered if you, personally were having God-awful things done to you in order to extract certain information that you may or may not have, that when you had had enough, you would say anything, anything at all, that you thought might make them stop? Whether it was true or not?


I wonder if using torture tactics doesn't actually produce more disinformation than reliable information? Just human nature and self-preservation, I would think.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 05:39 PM
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All very good points cyberkat, sadly that's what sadam's detainee's had to go through and because they were tortured for no good reasons, alot of it just heresay, they would make things up just to get them to stop.

I would imagine the cia would be worse then any other agency when it comes to torture tactics and mind fking these people.

And they get exclused from this? give me a freaking break.
If this bill doesn't include them it's joke, and it's to humor those that want to see the us government use humane tactics... if it dont include cia there's not point in having such an idiotic law, thats like have dui laws for drunkards, but not applying it to them...
dumdumdum



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 05:47 PM
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The proposal states the legislation approved by the US Senate shall not apply to counter-terrorism operations abroad or to operations conducted by "an element of the United States Government" other than the Defence Department, the newspaper reports, citing two unidentified sources.


BTW as a further note....... to my way of thinking the quoted passage does not specifically mention CIA. I think thats just a curve ball. If you read it the way i did it states

shall not apply to counter-terrorism operations abroad or to operations conducted by "an element of the United States Government" other than the Defence Department,

Once again its false and misleading, the above reference leaves it open for any government operative to be exempt. That "element" could be any old element. not just a cia element. it can be anyone, anyone is exempt and everyone can be clocked under an "element" as an excuse for torture.

[edit on 25-10-2005 by Mayet]



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 06:26 PM
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"The Bush administration says the measure will tie its hands as it fights terrorism and threatened to veto a $US440 billion bill to fund the Pentagon if it contained the restrictions. "

-------------------------------------------------------

Ya, that's a good one......if we can't get our jollies off beating the heck out of the prisoners, well, we will just not fund the troops that we've sent over there to get us the prisoners!!! I don't know, maybe they can throw rocks once their bullets run out!

I have never been as sickened by my government as I am now!!

I don't doubt that torture has more than likely been performed by my government in times past. Even with the numerous treaties and laws against it. I wouldn't surprise me that they just quietly broke those laws..
well, what's one more law to break to these guys anyways? I'd prefer they just didn't torture, since I doubt it's usefulness. Might if they really feel they must, well, all these guys in washington seem to be really quite used to ignoring the laws that stand in their way! Do they really have to be so vocal, and insistant about it and use our troops as "hostages" AGAIN trying to get us to accept what we don't want to?

like I said, I have never been so sick and tired of my government! send them over there, and then every time you think you aren't getting your way, well, threaten to compromise the their safety!

I wish the whole lot of them would be indicted for treason and a nice new prison built just for them!! IN IRAQ!!



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Interesting view point, switch100 and welcome to ATS.

However you seem to over-look once key point, if they wish to have a safe normal life they need to remove the threat of terrorism.

We all understand that point I hope.

Torture of innocent people, detention camps for Muslim's, etc, will only help boost their number and will in turn mean you have less of a chance of having a safe, nice, normal life.



posted on Oct, 25 2005 @ 09:10 PM
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Sounds good to me....thought they were doing this anyway



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