Schizophrenia: Strange Hand Signal?

I have a friend I've known for a very long time who has been normal for most of his life. For the most part he's done well in school, out of school he was heavily interested in Christian Theology and studied it in depth. He later became a prime advocate of the theories of predestination.

His time with religion was sandwiched. Prior to religion he was heavily involved in marijuana and drinking. He then found religion, then found the Army. He had already started to backslide into drug abuse prior to joining the Army, but the Army helped make it official for him.

He then continued to drink heavily and was involved in more drugs again. He was later less than honorably discharged from the Army (went AWOL, captured and jailed, then released due to mental health).

Since getting out he has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia. But what is odd is, he's never had signs of Schizophrenia previously. Previously he did have cases of Chronic Depression. Here are some of his statements after being diagnosed.

"I can't tell what is real and what isn't anymore".
"Sometimes I just want to be left alone by everyone"

He would often mention that he knows he's being watched, that they are listening, and based on biblical references to predestination, he felt that everything had a covert meaning, like a plane flying overhead was predestined in relation to him, but he took things a lot farther. Like he would look out the window and if there was a helicopter flying over, he would curse it out.

Another odd thing was that we stopped at a gas station to get directions to where we were going one day and he went in to ask for directions while I waiting in the car. He went in there and there was only him, the male cashier and a lady waiting in line in the convenience store.

He came out and said the cashier pressed his thumb on his nose and wiggled his fingers in the air and the lady behind him in line made a circle with her hand and was tapping the circle hand signal on her forehead. So the cashier did his hand sign back and forth to the lady who did her sign to him.

Like they where communicating to one another. Like they where demons, aliens, or something. He said they gave him directions but he doesn't trust them. After he said that I felt it was time to take him home and cancel where we were going.

My concern is this, if his perception of reality is officially gone, that's one thing. But where would he get that idea from? The thumb pressed to the nose and fingers waiving in the air like a rooster call or something.

He also mentioned his mother would do that as well, and his step-father would do the circle sign back at her. And this would occur all the time while they where watching television.

So my question is, have you ever heard of anything where this symbolism has been applied? Either in religion, the occult, military training, or on some sci fi tv programming?

Is this an original perception he seems to be having, or is this an adaptation from a previous framework or idea.

I've always believed that most ideas aren't original but born from previously witnessed or learned concepts.

Also, I wanted to add that the previous lady we use to go to church with, who is extremely religious, mentioned that there maybe a curse/hex on him. Which is strange because she never use to talk like that.

Just wanted to hear your comments, thank you.





[edit on 22-10-2005 by Digital Conundrum]

www.lifeprint.com...

I'll post what I find here.

According to sign language (why it's this way I don't know)

Placing your thumb on your chin with your fingers in the air means Mom.

Placing your thumb on your forehead with your fingers in the air means Dad.

But in between (the nose) is what he said they where doing. And also what he says his mother was doing. On the nose. He said they where doing it without knowing they where doing it.

I'm not saying I believe him, I just find it to be a very odd statement.

Schizophrenia is a difficult disorder to deal with.

He would often mention that he knows he's being watched, that they are listening, and based on biblical references to predestination, he felt that everything had a covert meaning, like a plane flying overhead was predestined in relation to him, but he took things a lot farther. Like he would look out the window and if there was a helicopter flying over, he would curse it out.

This is "normal" for someone suffering from Schizophrenia.
The disorder is very misunderstood by some religious types. There has been many cases of Schizophrenia "misdiagnosed" as possession.
Your friend needs your help and support. Here are a couple web sites with some info.
www.mentalhealth.com...
www.openthedoors.com...

``

since i can't diagnose schizo.
or even point out web info for your friend, or even you to read...
i can only reply to the 'signs' i think you are describing

the thumb on nose & finger wiggles (resembles the chickens
crown, like U pointed out) is usually accompanied with a
sound...similar to "Pfffffttt"
in the early 20th century, this act was called a Rasberry,
i think the rough translation is that the object/subject really stinks,

the sign of a close circle with ones' index finger, around ones' temple
(instead of the forehead) followed by 'taps' on ones' noggin
is another derisive sign...intended to indicate the object/subject is 'nutty'
this 3x circle, followed by light taps....is sometimes accompanied with a
'quite or whispered' Koo-Coo lyrical sound...meaning loony or crazy

I'm not sure if these are the 'signs' your friend witnessed,
but thats' the most likely explainations to my mind.
who knows.....i'm a lifelong schizo & i try not to dwell on things

Just because you think you are being watched, or get the sense certain planes flying over may be watching(experimenting on you) doesn't mean you are schizophrenic. Some people have heightened awareness from certain experiences. I sometimes find it interesting that I begin getting strange calls on my caller ID when I start delving into conspiracies on the net
Am I schizophrenic?


Diagnostic Criteria
Schizophrenia

Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):
delusions
hallucinations
disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition

See also E.
Substance/general medical condition exclusion: The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.
www.mentalhealth.com...

Yes even psychiatric medications can induce symptoms.
Did the military or private psych ever treat him for depression using SSRI's, Anti-psychotics or Mood stabalizers?

Generally schizophrenics see things that are not there and they hear voices.

Even then its hard to tell. Because one hears voices, does it mean they arent really hearing them and they are schizophrenic? Here is some info on a Google search and ATS regarding Voice to Skull technology.
www.google.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.atsnn.com...

www.nwbotanicals.org...

www.raven1.net...

Originally posted by Digital Conundrum
He would often mention that he knows he's being watched, that they are listening, and based on biblical references to predestination, he felt that everything had a covert meaning...

Isn't that religion in a nut shell?

...like a plane flying overhead was predestined in relation to him, but he took things a lot farther. Like he would look out the window and if there was a helicopter flying over, he would curse it out.

He just sounds very "religious" to me.

Originally posted by Digital Conundrum
But what is odd is, he's never had signs of Schizophrenia previously

Thats not odd.

But where would he get that idea from?

Why would one have to get the idea of being followed and watched from any one particular place?

He also mentioned his mother would do that as well, and his step-father would do the circle sign back at her. And this would occur all the time while they where watching television.

He's a paranoid schizophrenic, his observations of things and interpretations of what they mean are simply unreliable, being strongly affected by the schizophrenia.

So my question is, have you ever heard of anything where this symbolism has been applied?

I have never heard of the 'neener neener neeeeeener' handsign being used in an occult manner.

Is this an original perception he seems to be having,

Since he's schizophrenic, its probably an original delusion that he's having.


phhhhhp!


I suppose that the gesture has some sort of origin, but I don't see why one would have to be in a cult to make it.

Originally posted by Digital Conundrum
I have a friend I've known for a very long time who has been normal for most of his life.

Since getting out he has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia. ......

"I can't tell what is real and what isn't anymore".
"Sometimes I just want to be left alone by everyone"

FYI;
Press Release, September 19, 2005
(updated September 28, 2005)

www.nimh.nih.gov...

Treatment, old meds vs new meds........etc
UNC, Chapel Hill, Stroup, M.D.
Duke University, McEnvoy, M.D.
also 57 sites & clinics across Americas, included 1,400 people over 18 month study.
w/VA Medical Centers, University Medical Centers,
where people with schizophrenia received their usual care.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

funny you talk about helicopters....once i was driving to Montana from SC,
and for a period of several hours i distinctly heard (but could not see)
the traffic or Police/SWAT helicopter(s) keeping my DodgeColt within eyesight...what was unnerving was that the dogs were evidently barking loud enough to be heard over the rotor blades

after eluding the airborne team for some 11 hours of driving, i was fortunate enough to find a parking space in a Mall which had a lot of 'red' colored cars, so i avoided being apprehended because of their confusion...
and i slept for a couple of hours and then continued on my way.

your friend should create his own stories

Originally posted by Digital Conundrum

Also, I wanted to add that the previous lady we use to go to church with, who is extremely religious, mentioned that there maybe a curse/hex on him. Which is strange because she never use to talk like that.
[edit on 22-10-2005 by Digital Conundrum]

my sincerest well wishes to your friend, he is truly fortunate to have someone reaching out on his behalf when his own perceptions of reality may be slightly askew (or not- who could really say?)

i chose to focus on your statement about 'curses or hexes', and point out that it does have Biblical origin, although it is a topic that is not discussed in depth in today's religious circles. I wouldn't think it strange for her (as an extremely religious woman) to mention, knowledge of the truth empowers believers and puts them in a 'right place' to combat spiritual attacks. very appropriate discussion, imo, for a topic here in a religious conspiracy area of the forum, concealing or burying basic concepts of the Bible is an act which has been perpetuated for centuries by many 'religious' groups. not to digress, tho...

the following links demonstrate a few verses that tackle the topic of curses throughout the Bible, they may be useful in helping you understand where your lady friend was coming from in suggesting that a 'curse or hex' may be involved, unfortunately it doesn't promise that the mental state that your friend has found himself in is something that may be easily explained or combatted, it may be that his time of drug or alcohol abuse has left physical manifestations in the form of the diagnosis he was given... i hope you find this information helpful, at least to demonstrate that your lady friend attempted to stay true to the Bible in suggesting possible explanations for his decline in quality of life...

how curses go into effect

list about curses

Wow, maybe those people in the station knew each other. I know I gesture to my friend all the time. Especially when I am trying to be discreet and not yell across the room, or just being silly.

As for the parents, my husband and I gesture to each other all of the time so that the children don't hear something important. That, or we have goofy little inside moments.

I am sorry if your friend isn't all there, but I think this occurance is just silly. Are you able to try to rationalize with him, or is he too far gone?

The thing with Schizophrenia is most people with the illness dont belive thiers anything worng with thierself they think its everone else. Most people with the illness live normal lives untill it hits them. For me it was like a switch went off in my head. When schizophrenia first hit me I started accusing people (step brother and sister) of hidden guestures. I started thinking everyone was conspireing to get me friends, family, people at a store. Then I stopped leaving the house I wouldnt walk in front of the windows. My mom did not know what was going on with me. She tried to get me to see a docter and I wouldnt. She talked to profetionals on the phone and they asked if I was hearing voices and the answer was no because I wasnt at the time. Well I got in a arguement with her one night and she called the cops because I had a warrent for a unpaid traffic violation. My first night in jail I snapped and started hearing voices. After 10 days in jail I went home and started talking about the voices. It got to the point where I wouldnt eat because I thought someone was putting poisen in my food. The paranoia got so bad I thought my step family was conspiring to kill me so I though I would have to do them in first. I ended up in a fight with my step father and he was put in jail. My mom got a restraining order against him and then a divorce. Alot more to the subject but I'm not going into detail. At one point I was pushing my dresser against my bedroom door at night. Well my mom finaly got me to the hospital where they put me on heavy dosses of medication wich brought me back to earth. Over the years my medication has been cut back I'm now on a maintenance dose and its been ten years. I no longer hear voices and I lead a fullfilling life. The thing with schizophrenia is people with the illness are normal before it hits them I was a honor role student that played football but I like to dabble with drugs and alcohol as alot of teens do. I belive I had a genetic disposition wich made me susceptable to the illness. It sound to me your freind needs help and convincing him isnt going to be easy because in his mind thiers nothing wrong with him its everyone else ie conspericies. Hes gonna have a hard time trusting poeple and what to belive. Having no concept of reality isnt fun and people with no reality are very dangerous especaily when survival mode kicks in. People are most apt to developing the disease between 18 and 25. Best advice is to get him to a hospital. But if hes not hearing voices yet he might have have to get to that point before he excepts help. Good luck

One last thing about the hidden guestuer thing. The two people in the store the one guy may have just itched his nose with his thumb. I've done it many a time and can see how someone with this illness may mistake it for more than what it was. Thats just it Schizophrenics take simple things and make big consperacies out of it and try to convince others.