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OP/ED: Katrina Washes Away the Constitution

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posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 03:52 AM
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Very well said Astronomer68.

Although i am afraid that many members won't see your points because of their hatred towards this administration, whether that hatred is justified or not.

By the responses of many members I can see they are blinded to those statements you just made, and even if they make sense, a lot of people just don't want to listen to this and really don't seem to care.

Many people around here keep proclaiming to "Deny Ignorance" yet they seem to have forgotten the meaning of ATS' motto.


[edit on 14-9-2005 by Muaddib]




posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Until we realize that our two party system is meant to divide us, we're not going to get very far in solving this problem.

The regular people of America ARE America. The rich and elite, whether they be democrat or republican, are trying to take it from us. And they are succeeding.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by Belgarath
Until we realize that our two party system is meant to divide us, we're not going to get very far in solving this problem.



...and conquer, of course.




The regular people of America ARE America. The rich and elite, whether they be democrat or republican, are trying to take it from us. And they are succeeding.



Yes, they are. Unfortunately.

Under the flag: "Republicans against Democrats." Basic. But effective.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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I don't propose to go looking for it now, but under this thread or another on essentially the same subject, I posted what I think we really need to do and that is take government back from the career politicians in our country. They are killing us slowly, but surely by catering to themselves first, the big corporations, big unions, and big associations second, their own districts/areas third and everyone & everything else last. They are kept in office by the massive donations/bribes of the big corporations, big unions and big associations.

Two actions therefore need to be taken. One, strict term limits must be set for all politicians. If they can't sit around for 20, 30, 40 years leaching off the taxpayers, then they can only do so much harm at worst and might even try to do some good. Two, meaningful campaign financing reforms need to be passed. Greedy career politicians use the power of their office and the loose contribution rules/laws to stay in office. Big corporations, big unions and big associations are only to happy to assist them in getting reelected because they know they have an undue amount of influence over them. We must attempt to shut down the buying of influence because influence buyers don't have the interests of the people at heart. Politicians are going to pay attention to the ones giving them the most money and are going to slant leglislation in their favor either intentionally or unintentionally and the only way around this problem is to pass laws that don't let them get bought to begin with. One way to solve this problem is to make all political races free of outside contributions, of course that would mean the taxpayers themselves would have to fund the damn things, but we could put limits on how much could be spent. There are other ways as well, but I've said enough just now so I'll end this so people can think about it.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 12:36 PM
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I don't disagree with the opening post, but would like to add an additional observation.

What we are witnessing is the continued erosion of the Constitution, not a new attack. When the Union defeated the Confederacy, the ability of the states to enforce the Constitution was dealt a death blow. The implicit right of the states to secede peacfully was destroyed. De facto federalization of the state militias ensured they could not secede by threat of force either, nor even pose a credible threat to ensure Constitutional compliance.

The only thing holding the federal government back at this point is itself, as there is no entity which can pose a real threat to it to force it to comply with the Constitution. Even armed citizens do not pose a serious threat as long as the states are effectively vassels of the federal government.

Each new enchroachment sets a new precedent for further enchroachments. Although judicial review slows the process a bit, it doesn't stop it, since judges are by nature highly authoritarian and highly pro-state by appointment. They usually side with the state on precedent setting issues. Even on the occasions where a judge fulfills his oath to protect the Constitution, you can rest assured a later judge will overturn the decision. Once a right has been taken away or diminished, it is rarely restored.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 08:43 AM
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It's true, this is not an issue of one administration or president, nor is it an issue of one event or one region. Governments have naturally been afraid of the people they govern while at the same time viewing them as incompetant, uneducated, and above all, unfit to rule themselves. It has been the goal of government since it's creation to secure the rule of the minority over the majority, a goal which often neccesitates the use of force. When the entire New Orleans government packed up and left before Katrina hit the area was left in a state of anarchy, ruled by the people who stayed behind. The use of force in the disarmament of the people is neccesary to ensure the federal reconquering of NO will happen without violence. This is almost equivalent to convincing the terrorists to willingly turn in their guns and abandon their homes.

What people need to realise is that our constitutional rights are not laws in the same vein as those against murder. They are meant to be a belief system of the American people, one that is adhered to by the government to ensure the continued loyalty of the people. But as citizens we must understand that it is not in the best interests of the government for us to have these rights, they are a major hinderance to the expansion of power. It should come as no surprise that federal thugs are goose stepping all over our rights, especially when few will even raise a word in opposition let alone a fist. Slowly but surely, since the time of Jefferson himself, the government has restricted our freedoms. Such is the curse of adopting any government and Jefferson knew this well, which is why he advocated multiple revolutions and the constant creation of new constitutions. It is neccesary for the government to fear the people to ensure it acts with our blessing, it is when people begin to fear the government that the aristocracy begins to act in a tyrannical manner. The entire structure of our society is farcical and based upon the all mighty dollar. The only thing seperating the rich from the poor is money and the only thing seperating the poor from money is their fear of the government.

Citizens must realise that our right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness are God given and imbued to each of us at birth. Our rights were not given to us by a government, they are our inalienable rights as human beings and they are directly related to our ability and determination to protect them, even to the point of death. If you will not fight for your rights then you have no rights and must choose the increasingly uncomfortable life of a modern day serf. The erosion of our rights will continue until we no longer have the ability to fight back, at what point do we say enough is enough and force the government to act in the interest of the people?



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by Astronomer68

We must attempt to shut down the buying of influence because influence buyers don't have the interests of the people at heart. Politicians are going to pay attention to the ones giving them the most money and are going to slant legislation in their favor either intentionally or unintentionally and the only way around this problem is to pass laws that don't let them get bought to begin with.


I agree with you on this but we have a problem "Big interest and corporate power" is in the government how can you fight them when "They are the government"

For years we have been told about the take over of corporate power in our nation.

For years we have seen how it has been done, they have the money, resources and they are for the kill as long as it benefit only them.

They will never legislate against their own power. Look all the free rides that this administration has given in the name of new laws to protect them.

They are the government and that is the sad true, any body that raises against them in the political arena are very rapidly squash.



posted on Sep, 16 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I agree with you on this but we have a problem "Big interest and corporate power" is in the government how can you fight them when "They are the government"

For years we have been told about the take over of corporate power in our nation.


It goes back much further than you might think. This was basically the plan of the whig party, of which Lincoln was a member until it disbanded. His "America System", the formation of a mercantilist nation, is not a lot different from what we have today.

Mises Institute review of "The Real Lincoln"

The real purpose of the state is the transfer of property rights and the maintenance of those transfers by force.



posted on Sep, 21 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowFlux
I believe you are right, that the issue stems from a discrepency of our understanding of the roles of the government in such a situation.


That is not necassarily what I said....I was actually referring to the discrepancy involved in the governments understanding of the social experience of it's populace. They can institute programs ad nauseam for the disaster relief/homeland security/civil security of its population but they don't necassarily reflect what the people want...or even what is in their best interests. That is not to taken as a broad spectrum generality, by the way. Those in need of welfare, with the prerequisites, ,should have it. Those who don't want to worry about losing what they have attained should have the means to insure their interests.....I could actually segue into a discussion on the values of a capitalistic society within a democratic (or surface democratic), but that is at this point here nor there.

The point is that the government doesn't necassarily understand the social experience of their citizens. Make them happy by setting up an outlet for their entertainment...for their living situation....food.....and even some rudimentary eduacation. The point is, that in a democracy, the onus for success is on the individual, because established means have been set. It actually may be one of the most functional systems we have, but the problems occur when everyone has a job that is intended to make functional their department, without any continuning or complimentary eduacations. Lives become fixated on paperwork, and as a result, when something liemk Katrina happens, everyone tends to be reactionary to it.


Originally posted by ShadowFlux
However my personal misunderstanding stems from the fact that I believed the government to still be there to serve the wellfare of the state and the people there in with no considration given to it's own interests.


Agreed. But, due to the human nature.....self interest seems to be an inavoidable theme...


Originally posted by ShadowFlux
I don't care what someone's opinion is in regards to Hallibruton but it would be ignorant to think that many powerful people will not profit from this no bid transaction[/qoute]

Regrettably so.


Originally posted by ShadowFlux
I haven't forgotten, but I meant the statement to refer to a catastrophe of this scale in which the American government was fully responsable for the well being of the people involved both before and after the storm.


Ah....got it.


Originally posted by ShadowFlux
I hope this response was not too confused, in addition to the copying and pasting I had to reboot a few times


Not at all.....you helped me to understand your ideas a bit more fully. Which I can appreciate. I apologize for my late and brief response...as I believe this thread as many different relevant facets...but time has been a relevant factor.



[edit on 14-9-2005 by Shadowflux]


[edit on 21-9-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 21-9-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 21-9-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 21-9-2005 by MemoryShock]



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