Gun and Property rights issues in the aftermath of Katrina .(please watch video clip)

This comes to my tiny mind.

First the Government fails ( or it seems) to protect the citizen from a Strom that was 500 miles in diameter, then took a beating in the press and on boards like this for it's failure. Now the government is taking an action of protecting the citizen from making bad judgment and is again taking a beating but not so much of a beating.

(click it or ticket)

This looked like state LEO so we have the state being big brother but who really knows.

The littleO'lady posed no problem except to her self and to politicians if she were to die by being left alone.( Press would have a field day.)

What I am really trying to say is this; The press runs this country by showing us images of certain things and by not reporting on certain things.

The government is to obese to be controlled. Also the US citizen is getting to soft, can't take care of his or herself and will cry out to the gods in government for help over anything. ( I don't conceder a Cat. 4 storm a minor thing)

The Constitution is the Law of the Land! She had every right to stay and bear her weapon. Even if staying killed her.

Roper

Originally posted by Fry2
Thanks Amuk, You have enlightened me (once again) to the absolute B.S. that is being forced down our gullets in the name of "security".

Its what I live for

It would seem by now that the game would be obvious to one and all, but I still see people buying into it with a fury. We have got to shake this "Two" Party System and start voting in others or our country is doomed.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
I left the NRA years ago when all they did was defend our "rights" to skeet-shooting and sport hunting.

I agree

The NRA is a joke, they are sleeping with the enemy.

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Amuk]

Amuk
The problem, as I see it, is that nobody who is qualified for the job wants it, and nobody who wants the job is qualified for it.

For example, I think I'd make a damn fine politician, but you couldn't pay me enough to take the job. It's not in my future, point blank, period. I think the same goes for a lot of other well-meaning individuals. Anyone out looking for power isn't fit to wield it responsibly, and anyone who can wield it responsibly isn't going to run for office looking for it. It's a bit of a catch-22.

Politics is an icky world. Very, very icky. I come from a very political family, and without exception, those relatives of mine who've held office were unfit for any other line of work.

Flat out this pisses me off. WTF do they think they are doing? THEY can not do this!


Well the old saying is, when they come for your guns, give them the ammo first!


But now that the forced evacuations have stopped, ask yourself one question. Who dictated it and WHO recended it?

I have my thoughts and the Mayor and Governor are complete arsewipes in this thing, Bush came out today and took his share of the blame in which I do not consider him at fault. The Feds offered to take the 'disaster' on and the Governor denied that. The state couldn't handle it and should have worked with the Feds instead of being so damn stubborn. People died.

As for the guns and this video.........I too would be banned if I said what i wanted to.



[edit on 13-9-2005 by edsinger]

Originally posted by skippytjc

Originally posted by Amuk
Skippy you have yet to say what you think of the video?

Is this the way the government should "protect" its elderly?

You read my first reply?

Yes I have seen the video. Should old ladies be tackled? No, but I would have tackled her too if she waved that gun at me.

I have come to the conclusion that skippy is just a stubborn apologist for anything that happens on Bush's watch. So if you entered a elderly lady's home with the purposes of evicting her you would tackle her if she was holding a pistol in a non threatening manner and refused to leave her home? Hence forth every post you make in defense of your country will be read as total and utter BS.

I'm almost tempted to gain a warn here.

[edit on 13-9-2005 by cargo]

Ok I have now read through this and am even MORE pissed.

Who GAVE the authority to do this?

I agree that she should have shot him and would have had EVERY right to do so. This sucks and I can get a flag I don't give a # but this is complete Bull# and should be stopped NOW.

If she was a threat to public health somehow then the government has a right to do something but having a jackass take her down like that is wrong just plain wrong!

Did you see how she took him down with her? "Way to go Grannie, should have have him a knee in the balls"

Fuming mad I am and I am glad to be moving from inside a populated area in California now.............

In situations such as whats going on in New Orleans, some people here need to realise Republicans, and Democrats do not exist, only one group of people exist, Americans, and if our governement continues to pull this BS under any administration, Tearing apart the constitution piece by piece, the contitution that our founding fathers faught and died for, you wont be able to do the very thing this thread allows us to do, question and debate our government, You people need to stop playing party lines, the problem is our leadership as a whole, and it makes me sick.



[edit on 13-9-2005 by C0le]

The guy who tackled her looks like NO PD, rather than national guard, army, contract killer, etc.

This would lead me to believe the NOPD was the authority on the ground, at the individual locations. It's my sense that they were the ones deciding to get these people out of their homes by any means necessary.

These stories sure do scuttle like roaches when you get 'em in the light though! Hoo Boy! Evacuation orders get refused by the army initially, and of course it was refused by a portion of the citizens, then briefly enforced (apparently) by local PD, presumably at the behest of the regional disaster management authority, with disasterous results.

Maybe it's a total set-up. Could have been a situation where granny set up the confrontation, and made sure there were sympathetic people with cameras nearby. Several people, actually. And did anyone notice that the cops didn't stop the guy running with his camera? Is that because there was a weapon invovled? Or because the whole thing was staged?

I'm very, very curious, because now I'm sensing a bit fo a wag-the-dog scenario in the making. How much of what's going on in NO is fact, and how much COULD be fiction. Could is the operative word, keep it in mind when reading the next paragraph.

One could stage a scene of police brutality, and one could sell it to the media, and one could not be refuted initially by the authorities who would be in complete spin control mode, rather than in questioning the authenticity of the source mode. Follow? Is it possible that this scene could have been staged? Yeah, sure it's possible.

But is it probable? I watched it several times, again, and there's a couple wierd things about the scene. The woman, who looks visibly shocked in the scene where they're leading her out to the car, looks very odd while she's being filmed with the gun. Why was she holding the thing out? Did they tell her to go get her guns and hand them over, or was she standing there with the gun in her palm, and several cameras rolling, when the cops walked in?

There's an edit before he tackles her, could something have happened there?

The uniform insignia is illegible, can someone sharpen that (I would if I could). Has this been independently verified to actually, in fact, be NOPD? Are there operations logs for these events? Those could be cross-referenced with the woman's identity, if it were made available.

I don't think this is a fake. It's possible, but even after the last few comments I've made, it doesn't seem probable.

I do really wonder why nobody stopped the camera guys from running... Could the cops not stop them because there was a weapon involved? Maybe it was departmental video to make sure the evacuations were done properly...

I don't know. Is there any additional factual information surrounding this video? Has anyone had any luck in this department?

I've said it before and i"ll say it again.

We have a RIGHT to oppose our government. It is our firearms that give us the POWER to do so. Without the AGREEMENT of the PEOPLE it is the GOVERNMNET that is acting illegally.

Is it any wonder why they want to abolish that right?

It is our RIGHT, our DUTY and our RESPONSIBILTY to oppose the government when it acts against the citizens. Without such opposition the government has no accountability and will not be kept in check by the people as it was meant to be.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
... but it is unacceptable for American citizens to consider constitutional infrigements as unimprotant. It seems the prevalent opinion in reagrds to actions such as those taken against the elderly women is that they are justified because she had a gun and refused direct police orders. I am shocked to have to say this is not the case. The legality of an action is relative, obviously firing upon a police officer when in a situation such as the old woman found herself in is considered illegal.

And it just keeps happening Shadowflux. If they say you have to leave your property for your own good and you resist - look at the extremely scary number of individuals on this board who will say "But there are chemicals there! They told them they had to leave!"

If they come to get your guns and you don't want to give them up - look at the extremely scary number of individuals on this board who will say "But there were bad guys shooting at them! They had to take them away!"

If they truck you to a camp and take away your ability to come and go - look at the extremely scary number of individuals on this board who will say "Well, they acted bad while they were in New Orleans! And they ought to be grateful!"

This place

Originally posted by Valhall

I'm going to sit back and watch for a couple of back peddles now that the video review implicates NO PD did this...lol. OOPS!

Not for me Val, but you are 100% correct in that it will make all the difference to some.

I don't care WHO issued the order to do this, they should be SHOT. I don't care if it was the Marines or NO PD the act was disgusting, distasteful and un-constitutional. I dont see how a rational person can see the video and defend it.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

I don't know. Is there any additional factual information surrounding this video? Has anyone had any luck in this department?

The video was first seen, to my knowledge, on the O'Reilly Factor where you could hear him gloating over it.

It is legit



[edit on 13-9-2005 by Amuk]

This is something we should all understand. When marshall law is in effect, you should know your marshall real well. If you do, it's a good possibility that he won't take your guns. It's in the best interest of communities county and parish wide to have well thought out plans that may in the case of a catastopic event prove to save civility and law. If you have control of the populace under local law enforcement then marshal law is not neccessary. In the case of NOLA, the police force was scattered, some fled and then water and not communications made it impossible to maintain order. This is where you have to be well connected with your sherrif/police chief and mayors to have the cohesion to eliminate the confusion. If you look at the neighboring parish, Jefferson, you will find a different story. Keep in mind marshal law was declared in only a handfull of parishes in the toes of LA with devestation. One has alread resumed state law, In Jefferson, they had plans worked out and communications worked until FEMA yanked the Police antenna to hook theirs in. Most of the people that stayed were armed and kept there guns and were sitting on porches and guarding the city. Their was only a few spots of lawlessness and no reports of gun confiscations. They did have a looting gang burn a large Mall down but these hoodlams are more than likely in jail or floating in the Gulf of Mexico. NOLA (Orleans Parish) had a major problem and that is flooding. This left the city paralized and unable to maintain order.

You know... Its funny, they were doing # like this up in NYC during the RNC. Nobody said anything..

They would block off part of a road in a protest then arrest anything there that wouldnt move when they said.

They would manhandle old people and so on...

Then they were locked up in a old bus hanger or something.

This is all going to get nowhere more more and more drastic, Untill the American People stand up and say "enough is enough!!"

Untill then we are just getting what we deserve which is what you see here.

And another thing, they have been condiscating legal weapons in I think IOWA and Illinois I have to recheck on that, but they would go house to house and collect legally registered weapons for no appearent reason.

So them beating some old lady up is nothing new... I wonder when people will get off thier fat ass's and do something useful instead of crying on how ugly they look.. or even better yet.. Bitching on some conspircy # on how lowsy the world is.. and actually put thier bitching into action.

I agree wit the one guy who stated......

Whether you love or hate guns.. Go get one cause soon it will be your only freind.

The thread so far has focused on gun ownership, but the property rights issue is going to be HUGE.

Check this out, it gives a taste of where we're heading.

www.usatoday.com...

Very interesting, don't you think?

I think it gives a very good glimpse of the conflict coming over the horizon. There may be more tragedy over the rebuilding than there was regarding the collapse. Wait and see if I'm right.

Not sure yet, but I'm getting a very strong feeling of 'Chaos on the horizon.' Of course that's the only prediction I ever make. I'm always right though!

Serious stuff, hence the jokes.

I always thought it was just me being paranoid, but stories I've read and watched on the news for the past many years have always let me to believe that one day I'll have to choose between defending my way of life, or following my Commander's orders. I've just finished my first enlistment in the Air Force, and just last weekend re-enlisted as a reservist. I can tell you now, that decision will be a hard one for me to make.

The reason it will be so hard is because if I'm in line against citizens speaking out, and I believe they're right in what they're doing, if I side with them I will more than likely be shot by the people wearing the same uniform I am.

I have this feeling deep in my gut that another civil war is coming. There will be no middle ground because they only come with two sides. I know what side I'll be on, but that decision of when to choose will be hard to do.

Does this make any sense?

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.... Smart man Franklin was. I bet he's turning over in his grave about what's going on lately.

Shaker civil war or not you may be in that position one day if enlisted and i can understand and agree to your feelings and apprehension.

Though i`m in Australia the rules would still apply,you join to defend your country and people and freedom.I could`nt turn on that if my superiors ordered me to defend their orders which went against those i joined to protect.

If i did`nt join i`d defend my rights as a citizen against that force (not violently)

probably end up dead either way, good luck.

Originally posted by ThichHeaded
You know... Its funny, they were doing # like this up in NYC during the RNC. Nobody said anything..

Just like during the elections opposition bitched about fema employee's being appointed by bush because they supported him or worked in his campaign, and this was dismissed as more rhetoric.
-source/cnn
At the rnc is was probably deemed the same thing.

Remember the free speech zones? Caging opposition as if they were animals?

Disgusting.

And another thing, they have been condiscating legal weapons in I think IOWA and Illinois I have to recheck on that, but they would go house to house and collect legally registered weapons for no appearent reason.

i'd like to read up on this some more, is there any sources you can get for me? And I can't believe they just gave up their guns right then and there, that would of raised a big red flag in my head.

Bitching on some conspircy # on how lowsy the world is.. and actually put thier bitching into action.

There was an email on o'reilly last night stating that people are being pushed into a civil war...

And I don't doubt it... O'reilly didn't say anything about it, he just raised his eyebrows and continued on with the emails..
Looks like more and more people are starting to wake up.

Whether you love or hate guns.. Go get one cause soon it will be your only freind.

These officer's weren't protecting the law abiding citizens from the riff raff of n.o, they take away these law abiding citizen's right to carry arms and how are they supposed to defend themselves from the riff raff who carries them illegally?

So many thoughts, so I'll apologize upfront for the freestyle jazz presentation of them.

- I love certain cops, as they happen to be my flesh & blood. I get to beat the snot out of one of them as well as suffering some ugly contusions from him - regular family mixed martial arts training sessions because I wanted him to be safe on the streets while being a city cop and my nephews are half Arab with an Arab surname in a time where jingoistic jackals attack in packs indiscriminate of military or community service history.

- I hate cops because they are willful tools taking the easiest route to a job they're, more often than not, not qualified for via a lack of physical & mental training/low base requirements. Tools don't think, worry about repercussions for not following orders no matter how absurd, and will do things like tazer children & body slam old ladies.

- There is no NWO - it's way, way old, as in the dawn of civilization old. Corporate-ism has locked control on the globe and the actions of the undisputed single superpower are solely in support of furthering that agenda. The "Cold War" pitted such hero vs. villain drama in the American physce that so many of us are unaware that those "villains" might have been opposing or ultimate slave masters more than we can ever comprehend. We don't see our very economic well being as the card house it is, where our dedication to conspicuous consumption is the only thing keeping the economy afloat. We don't see how it's killed us ( cigarettes, all the obesity related diseases, war predicated on developing markets & market share - and don't be mistaken by warped history - the last "honest" war America was involved in was the Revolution, and even that was about not kicking up coin to Cesar ) and is killing our children ( autism from corp. shortcuts, cancer from fluoride in our water, the food cycle so polluted that mother's milk contain a long list of poisons ).

- Sure the NOLA response was held back - a critical event to distract from the criminality of this administration was needed, and another 9/11 would be too obvious. Land is a long term investment - a GOP NOLA Official was quoted as saying: ” We could never do anything about public housing, but God sure did”. The alacrity to which the funds, likely to be a few hundred billion, were approved ( again, without any depth of accounting oversight) and the companies earmarked ( Halliburton, Bechtel ) show true colors....again. Yes, land is a long term investment, getting it a la the New Manifest Destiny – Corporate style ( = allow MASSIVE DESTRUCTION & MASSIVE DEATH COUNTS, then come in at a dirt cheap gov. set price without those original pesky/dirty/brown peoples ), and having tax breaks & “endowments” to rebuild is the reasoning behind a hold back.

- Sure the NOLA response was held back – poor people suck. Black poor people suck doublely bad. Did they get an appropriate lead time to get out before levees were blown? No. Were they allowed a footpath exodus into safe areas ( e.g. “White” area suburbs)? No.

- Sure the NOLA response was held back – incompetency by design will do that as a default. If you establish a president with zero capabilities for the job except for fund raising, you have the nepotism/cronyism system ensured.....another ‘dawn of civilization’ truism. This is not the first area of federal government to be exposed as to having unqualified cronies heading the dept......it won’t be the last in this administration either. It’s about the only thing that can be called “honest” in the whole mess ....you can’t fault a 9 yr old for not being able to drive your 5 speed Mustang.

- It’s a gut wrenching film, but if you’ve been paying attention, it’s not new. Jose Padilla is about the best example of the Constitution being pissed on that there is – a US Citizen being held without contact to the outside world, without real charges, without any let up in sight – based on some scribbles of a plan to make a bomb. This man was a necessary distraction that they’ll “suicide” behind bars.

- We’ve had peaceful protesters brutalized, babies to old ladies, with crowd control force reserved for armed assailants, for some time now. It might feel good to have more widespread acknowledgement over something one has been sounding the claxon over for some time.....if not for the subject matter & its obvious continuance.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Was this Granny a part of a Well Regulated Militia? Hmmmm. Don't get me wrong, I find this Video Horrible - but on the other hand a mirror of the American Society: an old Woman with a gun in her hand being Stormermed by the members of the Security Forces (probably Private). What's wrong with this picture?

Firstly - you can't blame this guy, he was just doing his Job and following Orders. If he does not follow orders he gets fired. If he gets fired, he won't feed his children. Simple. Who has issued the Order to Disarm armed Civilans, or so-called Militia? The Second Amendement of the US clearly raises a few questions:

• Who does the Amendment mean by the "militia"?
  
• Who does the Amendment mean by "the people"?
  
• What "arms" does the Amendment protect?
  
• What does mean a "well regulated"?

Clearly some important Questions, that are not argued on the grounds of New Orleans. I don't think that the Security Forces had this discussion before they went to disarm the citizens of New Orleans. I don't think the Generals and the Officials who gave out this Order thought about those questions either. So, who did?

Yes, the Big Easy is a Big Mess today. Clearly the Society rules fell apart here and the Law Aparatus no longer works here. Martial Law was declared and that means certain rights and privileges are removed. What about the First Amendement - Freedom of Expression?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I belive those Rights have been Trampled on alot of times - especially in the current US administration. Could it be that Rights of American Citizens are being "erased" in those Crisis situations? Does a Crisis, like the Katrina Aftermath, give the Right to the federal goverment to remove those rights?

Still - this Granny was White and Old.

Imagine a Video of a Young, Black Man being stormed in his house - while he said those same words as the Granny did? How many would be outraged at that event? He is also a Citizen of New Orleans and of United States, therefore he is protected by the First and the Second Amendement. So - why would people look differently at these two events? Just because he is Black - that makes him a "born criminal"?

The situation is getting complicated - and soon it will get out of hand, especially if the Basic Rights of the US Citizens will be removed and trampled on in cases like this one.

But what happens to Rights during a Quarantine Orders?

Imagine the City of New Orleans - along with its citizens - to be put under Quarantine and nobody was allowed in or out? But people still wanted to run and save themselves, but they can not. Most of them are armed, and they are prepared to shot to kill in order to save themselves and their families. What if the Local Authorities (or Federal) gave the other to "Quarantine People" and remove them from their Homes AT ALL COSTS? What would a "Militia" do in cases like that one? It's very close to the situation like Today in New Orleans - but still kind of far.

Imagine the Avian Flu Outbreak in a Major City.....

Sources:
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 14/9/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah
Firstly - you can't blame this guy, he was just doing his Job and following Orders.

BS

Would you beat down a 70 year-old woman just because your boss told you too? If so you would have made a real good Nazi.

Does anyone but me find it odd that you and skippy both defend this action?

Who does the Amendment mean by the "militia"?

Who does the Amendment mean by "the people"?

What "arms" does the Amendment protect?

What does mean a "well regulated"?

*EDIT TO ADD*

Here is a pretty good definition of the second amendment and its clauses


www.firearmsandliberty.com...

This explains it MUCH better than I did

Still - this Granny was White and Old.

Imagine a Video of a Young, Black Man being stormed in his house - while he said those same words as the Granny did? How many would be outraged at that event? He is also a Citizen of New Orleans and of United States, therefore he is protected by the First and the Second Amendment. So - why would people look differently at these two events? Just because he is Black - that makes him a "born criminal"?

You are assuming a lot here. I would be just as outraged if he had been a Black Man. Who is saying only white women should be able to protect themselves? Are you claiming only young black men should be allowed to have weapons? As far as I can tell by everyones post everyone but you thinks EVERYONE should be able to defend themselves regardless of race.

So let me see if I got you right.

This is OK as long as SOMEONE gives the order and it doesn't affect blacks?

Feel fee to correct me if I misunderstand, I know putting thoughts into a different language sometimes causes that.



[edit on 14-9-2005 by Amuk]

[edit on 14-9-2005 by Amuk]