Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by Amuk
NO LAW CAN SUPERSEDE THE CONSTITUTION

I agree.

Ditto. And a question,

"Given this tendency to ignore ordinary Americans' Constitutional Rights, exactly what kind of "democracy" is the USA exporting to Iraq and around the world?"

Originally posted by soficrow
"Given this tendency to ignore ordinary Americans' Constitutional Rights, exactly what kind of "democracy" is the USA exporting to Iraq and around the world?"

I shudder to think!

And I realized as I pondered your question that that very issue is one thing I've been so unnerved about for the past 3 years. We are NOT spreading 'democracy' over there. You don't invade a nation, kill all the dissenters, set up a corrupt government, make a show at 'voting', throw together a 'constitution' and call it a democracy!

We don't even have a democracy here anymore (not entirely due to the current administration, but in large part). That's becoming more and more obvious. How can we spread something we don't have? We're only creating a 'Little America' over there and based on results, this is not a Good Thing...

Soficrow

EXACTLY!

We're exporting a faulty product!

This is what I've been saying since the whole charade started in Afghanistan. I heard the rhetoric about bringing them freedom and western social progress, but I look around and see we haven't even come close to mastering these things. Our society suffers from EXACTLY the same problems as theirs, with a few notable exceptions like womens rights and the comparative complexity of our legal system (not in a good way either).

Anyway, back to the point.

It's the rough equivalent of a guy, who's still learning how to build a gun, exporting a cobbled together pipe rifle to foreign lands. It's just as likely to explode in your face as shoot straight. We need to raise ourselves to the standard we've been demanding of others.

Originally posted by soficrow
The US response to Katrina establishes legal precedents for government policy to deal with these predicted disasters - and should be evaluated as such.

* The most significant impact of government emergency policies to date has been the (so far) illegal suspension of Constitutional Rights - which, illegal or not, DO establish legal precedents.
.

That was the point behind my thread

The legal repercussions of the governments actions are, in the long run, far more terrifying than the deaths, as tragic as they were.

They are saying they can overrule the Constitution at will.

I'm starting to wonder what Souljah's and Skippy's motives here are.. At first I just thought they were just against everything America stood for.. since the majority, if not all, of their posts were meant to stir up a heated debated about a one sided view of America.

Yet, here we have a thread that they should be salvinating over, and they both take the extreme opposite side..

Go figure. I think they just enjoy taking the opposite side and instigating argument?

Anyhow, back on topic.. I truly wish, hope, and pray that after this whole mess is over, that people stand up and take this crap to trial.. Then again, when that happens, we may not get the outcome we all hope for..

[edit on 9/15/2005 by QuietSoul]

Originally posted by Amuk
He had NO RIGHT to disarm her to begin with. She had broken NO LAW. It would be the same if our mayor said to arrest everyone driving a green car. It would not be a legal arrest.

NO LAW CAN SUPERSEDE THE CONSTITUTION

I wonder how many Rights and Laws the Bush Goverment BROKE in Process of their Ruling. I wonder how many People were Robbed of Their Rights: Like the Muslims after 9-11 which were targetted by the Federal Security Forces. How many rights of Peace Activists have been Broken during Protests. I won't even start with the so-called "Race Issue" - what if this Granny was Black? I think that the majority of people here are outraged because this was one Old Lady that was stormed with brutal force just because the color of her Skin. I think Racism is still present in the US and the Katrina Disaster showed just how rasist America really is. New Orleans turned into a sinking Titanic, where the Poor died just so the Rich could save themselves with the Boats. But there were not enough Rescue boats on Titanic - and New Orleans had the same problem. Do you think there were "Rights and Constitutions" in Effect onboard Titanic?

How many times the US Broke International Laws?

How many times the US Broke International Conventions?

How many times the US Broke Their OWN Constitutions?

Sorry - but how this Granny was treated does Not surprose me at all.

I have seen much worse from current US Goverment - and I think it is Capable of far more Terrible Actions.

This one is JUST a Warning....

Originally posted by Souljah
How many times the US Broke International Laws?

How many times the US Broke International Conventions?

How many times the US Broke Their OWN Constitutions?

Just one more question, "How many times were threads jacked by you for your own agenda"?

Originally posted by Souljah
I think that the majority of people here are outraged because this was one Old Lady that was stormed with brutal force just because the color of her Skin.

BS

So you are calling ALL of us racists here at ATS? All except you right?

I find this HIGHLY insulting to everyone here.

I for one was raised during the civil rights era and fought for equality for the blacks.

I STILL recieve death threats from skinhead groups.

You shouldnt speak of something you know NOTHING of.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by Amuk]

If it's principle of freedom, liberty, and democracy that American has stood for, then it's these principles that have been elected as false dreams. New Orleans is in anarchy due to poor reaction and intervention by the U.S. government, at all levels. We have seen rights being disregarded for security reasons that simply do not exist to the extent propounded perpetualy and redundantly by the media. The only thing that exists in American is the virtue of corecion by the U.S. government, and utter subordination by it's citizens therein.

As I've stated many times before, I shall quote, once again, a great man: "Silence and indifference is the greatest sin of them all. "

Luxifero -- ZeroDeep; this is just a new puesdonym.

Originally posted by Souljah
I think that the majority of people here are outraged because this was one Old Lady that was stormed with brutal force just because the color of her Skin.

I feel safe in saying that you are incorrect on this point, sir. The majority of people here are outraged about the firearm (Constitutional breach) thing. If this had been an old black or green lady, we'd have felt exactly the same. You're not required to believe that, but it is the truth.

Firearms enthusiasts and Constitutionalists are funny that way.

I think Racism is still present in the US and the Katrina Disaster showed just how rasist America really is.

You're right. Racism is present in America and on this board, in fact, but not in this thread, until you brought it here. Besides, I thought...

I won't even start with the so-called "Race Issue"

Sorry - but how this Granny was treated does Not surprose me at all.

It doesn't really surprise me, either, but I'm sure seething about it.

I also find it interesting Souljah that you completely ignored my post, just posted rhetoric:

Originally posted by intrepid
Souljah, sometimes I just don't get you. Try not to think in absolutes. I would have a problem with a large man jumping any of the following:

a woman
a child
a senior
someone disabled

She qualifies on 2 counts, maybe three by looking at the way she was walking. A young guy is NOT a fair analogy(notice color wasn't mentioned)?

I'm only 210 but I would love to show this guy the meaning of "use of force".

[edit on 14-9-2005 by intrepid]

You know what the root word of ignorance is, don't you?

Can you please point out my racist comments, I'd be more than happy to remove them.

BTW, to the member that posted about 210 being my age? Funny as hell.

Originally posted by Fry2
Shameful really. How did we ever let it get to this point?

You are right

here is some hopefull news from the same link

Alan Gottlieb, of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA), is demanding a federal investigation of the actions.

"I also want to know under just what authority New Orleans officials are confiscating lawfully-owned firearms from law-abiding citizens," Gottlieb said in a press statement. "Where does it say that the state and federal Constitutions can be nullified, even briefly, simply because of a hurricane? In every other natural disaster this country has ever faced, people retain their civil rights, including the right of self-defense, but New Orleans and Louisiana state officials have added the sin of arrogance to incompetence and negligence for which they must be held accountable when this is over."

The blame for this seems to lay with the state more than with the feds.

I hope they are all arrested for treason

Originally posted by Amuk

The blame for this seems to lay with the state more than with the feds.

I hope they are all arrested for treason

As do i.


I wonder if the ACLU will take legal action against officialls.


im not holding my breath

Souljah - what you say is true, but irrelevant to the issue at hand. This thread is about EVERYONE losing their Constitutional Rights, including black people.

Why are you trying to redirect discussion, dilute the issue's importance, and hijack the thread?

soficrow (and others) are right souljah. Why are now trying to divert this topic to an entirely unrelated issue of race? The violent manner in which this woman was "taken down" in her own home, after she repeatedly and clearly stated she didn't even want them in there, in order to confiscate her personal weapon and manhandler off her own property is not only unconstitutional in a couple of ways (at least), but pathetic and shameful.

I'm not sure how there's any argument against these facts.

Just ignor him, he does the same exact

thing in every thread he touches...

Originally posted by Souljah
Where are the Videos of disarming Black Armed People?

There was exactly one 'disarming' video that I saw. There may be more but we haven't seen them. We've heard the stories about how FEMA is disallowing taking pictures down there and confiscating cameras and film.

Given that New Orleans was populated by young and old, men and women, black and white and given that it's possible that only one video was made, or made it out of there. If there was only ONE video... Pick one:

Young Black Man
Young Black Woman
Young White Man
Young White Woman
Old Black Man
Old Black Woman
Old White Man
Old White Woman

The odds that you speak of would make sense if all of the disarmings had been taped, but we don't have enough information to say anything about that. We don't know if even one other disarming was taped. This may be the only one. So, all we can say is "look at this".

The fact that she's an old white woman is totally irrelevant.

I hear what you're saying Souljah. But I honestly believe that your race outrage is misplaced in this thread. There are definitely questions in my mind about the race factor of the whole rescue effort. I don't think we're denying that. I'm not. I personally think that if the majority of NOLA had been rich white folks, they'd have been evacuated by helicopter immediately. I believe race was a factor, along with 'station' or the perceived 'class' of these people.

But we have one video only. It had to be of someone. Sometimes things go against the odds. Ask any gambler.