homeopathy a dud ?

so claims a swiss medical report published this week

press release details here :

news.bbc.co.uk...

a more ` indepth ` article , via the lancet jornal :

www.thelancet.com...

i am very skeptical of homeopathyic claims , how do you know what prior " memories " the water has ??????? HUH , its not a trick question - our local reservoir is stocked as a trout fishery - am i getting a daily homeopathic dose of trout urine ?


YRS - APE

Homoepathy does work - whether it works through the process of a placebo effect we will never know. It will always be there. Herbalism works but then that is far more easier to prove that it works. Sad to see it go if it does as Yahoo News reckons it is on the way out but I don't think so. The Australian government and the EEC have tried to outlaw various different viatmins and minerals to baulk up their corporate drug states of chemicals. Shame as alternative therapies can have more ofa faith thing as alot of conventional medicines have hideous side effects.

I think it's more placebo than anything, really.

Herbals are different; aspirin and digoxin for example both came from plant material.

Herbal doesn't always equate "safe", either....we can talk about the side effects of synthetic drugs, and yet we generally ignore the side effects (some of which can be deadly) of herbal medicines.

I have had a little experience with homeopathy and can't claim grata results.
But, it's been around a long time and seems much safer than newly released mainstream drugs.

And, if it only works as a placebo, so what? I don't mind tricking myself into a cure

And, as a final thought, how can we really trust the mainstream medical community to give us a fair shake with homeopathics. It is in their best interests to see homepathy look bad.

The Corporate Drug Mafia Rackets work like a tipped set of weights. As you said most of the original pharmaceuticals are actually little more than synthesied herbs like willow for aspirin and foxglove for digatalis and that.

Now they have been processed and chemicalised through the industrial revolutions, I'm not saying they exist as # but you know the top man never has time for the bottom men.

The whole theory that water holds memories is I think a correct Gnosis I hope. It's very mammalian and womb like and very naturale I'd say.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower


Herbal doesn't always equate "safe", either....we can talk about the side effects of synthetic drugs, and yet we generally ignore the side effects (some of which can be deadly) of herbal medicines.

I would suggest that yourself, myself, all our peers
are not starting out in life as 'clean' unaldulterated, systems!

therefore one has to purge all the chemicals, pharmaceuticals we have
unbalanced our systems with....to give Homeopathy or even
Ancient Chinese Medicine & Herbs a chance to work as originally intended.

A deep introspection and a informed, honest appraisal of the self should
reveal that there are many blockages in ones' chi, starting at the 9 months
gestation- sharing your mothers' life support system...and the first ~15 years of your childhood as you all (myself included) probably poisoned
yourselves with colas, salty snacks, preservatives, food dyes, etc etc

all of which helped cause the normal herbs & homeopathy applications to be nullified or perhaps merely a 'placebo effect' as you noted.

We've come full circle, let the individual decide if they want to return to the
life status where these ancient remedies are effective....in the mean time
use modern medicine where/when it is appropriate

live long & prosper

Good point...but I find it hard to believe that our diets are always the reason herbals and/or homeopathic remedies don't work.

Don't get me wrong - there are many herbals that have been proven effective; I'd love to find the German E Monologues (a selection of studies relating to this, which is an invaluable resource) online, but alas, I can't.

Homeophathic remedies are a little different; I've not seen anything to actually support their efficacy (as opposed to how easy it is to find info about herbals), so I can't really say whether they're effective or not. One major point against their efficacy is the dilution factor...there's so little of the active ingredient that it's difficult to see how they could actually work as they're meant.

I do tend to side with "probably placebo".

But that doesn't mean it's bad - if a placebo makes you feel better? I'm all for that

(assuming it isn't lethal...)

Are you referring to the Ayerveda system and the dietary systems as used by Taoists when they do Tai Chi and Internal Martial Arts? I too find a healthy balanced diet more better - a positive mental attitude and a positive psychosomantic side helps like as in good biofeedback or within the area of relaxation and autogenic training. Diatery we are looking at junk food diets and poor balances without proper intakes of vitamins and minerals ot trace elements. Peace be with you..

Last year, the Belgian skeptics society decided to commit suicide en masse by homeopathic medicine. They took a "30 c" (strongest mix) homeopathic preparation of very lethal poisons, including arsenic and snake venom and belladonna.

...and can you guess the results?


www.csicop.org...

www.randi.org...

(this one goes into a lot more detail, including what they drank.)
www.homeowatch.org...

This is priceless:

All of the 23 volunteers survived, but some who came by car had to wait before returning home because the alcohol in their homeopathic solutions had made them too dizzy to drive.

So do we have any empirical evidence to support the notion that homeopathic remedies work outside of the placebo mechanism?

Homeopathy replies :

Apologies for “ neglecting “ this thread , busy busy 

Tinkleflower wrote : “So do we have any empirical evidence to support the notion that homeopathic remedies work outside of the placebo mechanism?”

Therin lies the rub , the scientific demand of repeatable results is near impossible to verify


Castlesonair :

I agree with most of your views on diet etc , leaving aside the hyperbole of “ supersize me “ stuff like mcdonalds is pure crap

We have too many “ western desieses “ that cannot be explained by genetic diversity they are down to too much red meat , too much wheat , too little veg / fruit and far too many calories

The biggest problem with most herbals I can see is QC and dose metering , just ask any cannabis afficianado – the active ingredient varies widely – and the only way to know is to try it , easy with a drug like cannabis but there are no such direct indicators with most “ herbal medevine “


BYRD : YUP , READ THAT , LAUGHTED MY BUTT OFF TOO 


YRS – APE

Mod Edit: Please don't use profanitys.

[edit on 18-9-2005 by sanctum]

the queen of england uses it.i know alot of rich people who use it with great response.i find the tests could be like the ones that bashed herbel markets.this could be a bias on something that has merit....

In a sense. Homeopathy works.

In the case of a Vaccine. A weakened strain of a deadly disease is given to the host. The Host's Immune system then "recognizes" the pathogen, releases a Immune response and kills the "germ". Then The Genetic memory of the Germ is stored for future reference.

In the Case of homeopathy. A deadly substance is marginalized until it can be beneficial.

Can it cure others? No But the Bodies adaptation to the Homeopathic substance might just "cure" a sickness.

And no, there is no known Homeopathic Cure for Baldness.

Originally posted by msnevil
In a sense. Homeopathy works.

In the case of a Vaccine. A weakened strain of a deadly disease is given to the host. .

Apples and oranges (apples and duck liver might be more apt). But I think you know this

In the Case of homeopathy. A deadly substance is marginalized until it can be beneficial.

The thing is, in homeopathy the substance is diluted until it is rendered..well...less inactive than a Very Inactive Thing.

Let's take oscillococcinum - the formulation might be written as 200C. This means the mixture has undergone a sequence of two hundred "C" dilutions. Each "C" dilution is a process where a mixture is diluted by 1:100 and then shaken exactly one hundred times.

So, a 1C mixture is one hundred times weaker than the original; a 2C dilution is ten thousand times weaker, and so on.

Obviously at this rate there's virtually no active (or inactive...you get my point ) ingredient left at all. No therapeutic value in and of itself. I'm just very unsure that our bodies can 'remember', as alleged, the ingredient itself.

This would suggest that a bee sting would also imprint a "memory", and therefore render future stings ineffective; we know this isn't the case (and it's a reason why I have to carry an Epi-Pen). Multiple applications of homeopathy'd belladonna will not make you safe from large doses.

Having said that - if people feel better than they did before, with no ill-effects, then go for it! Placebo is a valid consideration, and if it works...then more power to it.

edited because I have no coffee and cannot spell

[edit on 13-9-2005 by Tinkleflower]

It is well known that Very small doses of Belladonna. Taken over a long period of time. Like Belladonna, Can lead to an increased tolerance of that poison.

As Shown by Alcoholics "toleration" of alcohol.

I'm not saying that Homeopathy is a cure all. But some aspects of it. Can be beneficial. While extracting the vast amounts of quackery.

Much like "herbal therapy". For exp. Or the synthetic version, The Pharmaceutical industry.

Simply:
Take what works by Science, and discard the rest.

(please note, I am a Medical practitioner. So my spelling, writing and grammar sucks. )

[edit on 17-9-2005 by msnevil]

Originally posted by msnevil
It is well known that Very small doses of Belladonna. Taken over a long period of time. Like Belladonna, Can lead to an increased tolerance of that poison.

But two molecules of the belladonna compound in 10ccs of water don't lead to an increased tolerance of anything, no matter how long you drink it.

I'm not saying that Homeopathy is a cure all. But some aspects of it. Can be beneficial. While extracting the vast amounts of quackery.

Then one molocule of acetylsalycylic acid can cure my headache? Really?

Take what works by Science, and discard the rest.

That's just it. NONE of it works. Since you're a medical practitioner, then surely you're aware of the failure of the clinical trials on this plus the various screeds and anecdotal reports of patient deaths and resulting decline in health that's been in... gosh... JAMA, etc, for years and years.

Or do you think your peers actually didn't do any of the studies and that they're lying about the outcomes of their patients?

My aunt died because a Homeopath told her she didn't need Mainstream Cancer treatment, she waited till the last months of her life before she broke down and started Chemo. Allot of these Homeopaths are nothing more then Snake Oil salesmen. If you want to real deal get a book on Chinese or Indian traditional medicine and find a local herbalist who sells in bulk. Do you research and test in low doses to see what works and what doesn't. I can say from experience that some work and some don't. Echinacea works for sore throats and coughing(better then the cough syrup you get in the drugstore too) and Nettles is a miracle cure for Hayfever.

read " The hidden power of water", and the "true power of water" by
Dr. Masaru Emoto. This will expain how homeopathy works. The water
retains memory of the introduced herb or mineral.

check this out www.spiritofmaat.com...

They took a "30 c" (strongest mix) homeopathic preparation of very lethal poisons, including arsenic and snake venom and belladonna.




Byrd,

I must explain an error you made in your post. 30C is not the "strongest" potiency in homopathic medicines.
It would be the "LM" range. You see, for homeopathy, the more diluted it is , the stronger it is.


The three common ranges are LM, C and X. X (the weakest) is 1/10th.so each x is 1/10th of the previous...2X is 1/100 and so on.

C is medium and is 1/100th per c. So 2C is 1/10,000th of orginal.

LM is the strongest at 1/50,000 per LM.

Most of the medicines used in homeopatic medicines are poisonous. If take incorrectly-they can kill you. But then again for that matter many "doctor" predcribed medicines are dangerous also.

The real issue is getting a good doctor for either kind of medicine. If a normal person tried to proscribe medicines-they might kill people if they did not really know what they were doing.