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Here is Wisdom. Let him that hath understanding ...

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posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 05:28 AM
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Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I think I can promise all of you that you have NEVER EVER read this perspective on the whole 666 deal



What if, "[color=#000099]Here is Wisdom", means that the path to the answer, IS THRU SCRIPTURE ITSELF?

The man whom the Almighty said was a man AFTER HIS OWN HEART said:

Psalms 111:10 - "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."

The man whom God made Wiser than all others said:

Proverbs 9:10 - "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."

Both refer to Knowledge/Practice of the Holy Scriptures (which is where His Commandments are found).

So, to reiterate, "[color=#000099]Here is Wisdom", is an admonishment to the reader that the path to understanding this verse, MUST COME THRU THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

What comes afterward, "[color=#000099]Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast"

Ok, let's use Holy Scripture to see if we can derive at a clear meaning to that phase ...

While it is plausible that "HIM" refers to any reader that has understanding, it is JUST AS PLAUSIBLE that we might find the "HIM" to refer to someone in scripture that has UNDERSTANDING. While the man that probably comes to mind for most people would be Solomon, and while some have linked the passage in 1 Kings 10:14 (666 talents of gold) to the "666" of this verse in Revelation, there is something else that I've just recently uncovered, and would like to share.

The Greek word "count" also means: CALCULATE, RECKON
The Hebrew word "count" also means: CALCULATE, RECKON, DEVISE

Now, it turns out, there is a man, which God filled with Wisdom, and Understanding, and to whom God TASKED TO DEVISE CUNNING WORKS.

Exodus 31:1-4 - "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass ..."

So this BEZALEEL is:

  1. filled with God's Spirit, WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING, and KNOWLEDGE
  2. Skillfull in all manner of workmanship
  3. Called to DEVISE CUNNING WORKS


BEZALEEL, in Hebrew means: in the shadow of God (ie., "UNDER His Protection")

Ok, here's where it gets interesting (in my humble opinion). The angel Gabriel tells Daniel that a "Beast" in a vision represents a kingdom. Now, just as Bezaleel is a "MAN UNDER GOD'S PROTECTION", there is ALSO, a "[one] NATION, UNDER GOD". Well, with that I'm sure I've already lost half my audience [sigh], so for the other half, give the rest of this post a chance to build.

We cannot yet determine the plausible interpretation of this verse, until we look at the remaining portion of it: "[color=#000099]for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Ok, for nealry 2000 years, this "666 man" has changed identity more than any other man in history. He was thought to be Nero, Constantine, the Pope, Napoleon, Hitler, Ronald Reagan, Putin, and now some say George Bush. Well, if we took a different approach, we will find something that, again, in my humble opinion, is just plain awesome


What is it that John actually wrote, at the end of this verse. - bible.crosswalk.com...

Strong's concordance says this: Chi xi stigma, the (22)d, (14)th and an obsolete letter ((4742) as a cross) of the Greek alphabet.

Of course, it is ENTIRELY possible that John meant the ordinal numbers represented by those Greek letters, 600, 60, 6, BUT, is it so far fetched to suggest, just for a fleeting moment, that another approach be taken? Dare we look at the MEANING of each letter, and see if perhaps, their meaning might prove useful to interpretting this verse, and unlocking the mystery?

The LETTERS:
(22)d - unmarried, unwedded, SINGLE - bible.crosswalk.com...

(14)th - to work good, to do good, to do well, act rightly - bible.crosswalk.com...
comes from (18 - distinguished, upright, honourable) and (2041 - business, EMPLOYMENT)

(4742) - a mark pri_cked in or branded upon the body. To ancient oriental usage, slaves and soldiers bore the name or the stamp of their master or commander branded or pri_cked (cut) into their bodies to indicate what master or general they belonged to

Putting them all together as a phrase or thought, we get, an "Individual(22) Employee(14) Identification(4742)", and in the context of the verse, we get "it is the number of a man; and his number is HIS Individual Employee Identification Number." Does something like this exist today? Do you NEED this to be in a position to BUY AND SELL? Is it mere coincidense that the MEANINGS of these letters create a phrase that in John's time was unintelligeble, but is today a fact of every day life.

Ok, let's now put the whole verse together (stay with me here, we're almost done)

"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

"Let '[one] Nation, Under God', with understanding, DEVISE the Number[ing] of the Nation as: the number for a man; and his number is HIS Individual Employee Identification Number."

Ok, I'm sure it is obvious to all what I am implying here, that this Beast which ascends from the earth is the United States of America. And I KNOW more than half of you disagreed with me even before reading anything I wrote here, but again, for the other half, consider also the rest of the context for this particular Beast(Kingdom/Nation).

This Beast/Nation has 2 horns like a LAMB = has the appearance of a CHRISTIAN Nation.
This Beast/Nation makes fire come DOWN from heaven onto the earth - The Atom Bomb (Hiroshima and Nagasaki)
This Beast/Nation deceives the world by miracles - the USA is the ONLY Nation that has supposedly achieved the impossible, it claims to have sent men to the moon.
This Beast/Nation suggests to the world that an Image of the First Beast be created. A different study on the First Beast would reveal it's identity as the WORLD in general (the Kingdom of Earth), and therefore, it's IMAGE (it's Representative), would be the World Body we know of as the United Nations. The UN is the brain child of the USA, and FDR is credited as being it's Principal Architect!
Through the United Nations branch called the International Labour Organization, Social Security programs are in place in scores of member nations, all over the globe. Oh, this is cute, visit it's Web Site - www.ilo.org... and LOOK GOOD at their logo, to the left, see those 3 pretty crowns surrounding the letters "ILO", and each crown has, OH MY, 6 spikes each


Now, what might this mean, "[color=#000099]he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be KILLED" ???

Well, first, understand that the word "KILLED", means "to kill in any way whatever, to destroy, to allow to perish". Next, understand that a United Nations Resolution [a formal expression by a meeting; agreed to by a vote - dictionary.reference.com...] can lead to SANCTIONS against a Member Nation which eventually CAUSES that Nation's Regime to CEASE(POLITICAL DEATH)

LASTLY (and I thank ALL OF YOU for your patience [both halves]) there is yet one more piece of the puzzle that fits so darn well with all that has been shared thus far:

FROM www.uhmc.sunysb.edu... [got Vespucci's Good Name / 2nd paragraph]
"Vespucci was born in 1454 in Florence, where he was baptized, according to the official record, "Amerigho [not, as Carew asserts, Alberigo] Vespucci"; the use of the form Amerigho for Amerigo is an instance of the orthographic anarchy that existed in the spelling of proper names. The name Amerigo derives from an old Gothic name, Amalrich. In all its forms found in Europe (Greek "Aimulos," Latin "Aemelius") the underlying meaning was that of work. Amalrich, which literally meant work ruler, or designator of tasks, might be freely translated as master workman."

The United States of AMERICA WAS NAMED AFTER AMERIGO VESPUCCI.
AMERIGO, derived from "Amalrich" might be freely translated as MASTER WORKMAN.

Exodus 31:1-4 - "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, AND IN ALL MANNER OF WORKMANSHIP, To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass ..."

Bezaleel - Hebrew: in the shadow of God (ie., "UNDER His Protection")
USA - Pledge of Allegiance - "One Nation, UNDER GOD"
Bezaleel - the LORD filled him with the spirit of God in ALL MANNER OF WORKMANSHIP
America - "MASTER WORKMAN"

__________________________________________________________

Oh, by the way:

  1. there is not a single verse that says there is a penalty for having a number
  2. the Mark of the Beast is NOT A NUMBER
  3. the Mark of the Beast is NOT A LITERAL PHYSICAL MARK


Ezekiel 9:4 - "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a MARK upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

Exodus 13:9 - "And it shall be for a SIGN unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt."

The Mark/Name on the Hand/Forehead is Spiritual, same as in the Name on the foreheads of the 144,000.

Revelation 14:9-10 - "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"

No mention of the number! The prophecy regarding the Numbering System is meant ONLY as another sign to watch for.




posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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If you are going to based the whole topic on a verse in the bible. Shouldn't you use one that accuratly translates it, or uses a better translation

the Aramaic saiys "Six hundred and sixty-six" there was never "Three score" in the original text. Also it "Here is wisdom" is a clause preceding an explination... in short:

It explains itself, or defines itself as wisdom

the number six, is one less then the holy numer 7 (Four gospels, plus the Trinue God, Father son, and holy spirit. 4+3=7) symbolically it means "really, really, really bad"

SO the wisdom is that the beast is marked as something really really really bad. Most christians would imidiatly point as say that the beast with the mark of Mans number 666 is none other then satan himself



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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Satan is not a beast. Satan is a spirit.

The number of man--on the beast--means the beast is man!

Which includes you, me, Greta Garbo, Dale Earnheardt JR, Orson Welles, Michael Jackson, etc....



posted on Aug, 22 2005 @ 11:46 PM
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"Behold", you've really streched the text for the purpose of arriving at your conclusion. You know it, I know it, and hopefully everyone else sees it for that as well.

It isn't hard to understand what 666 is all about (or is it 616?). The business about 'wisdom' refers to 'secret' knowledge. Well it isn't so secret, but it is drt of like a secret handshake.

First, let's examine the usage of the word "mark" as it applies to the beast.

Rev 14:9 "his mark"
Rev 14:11 "mark of his name"
Rev 15:2 "his mark"
Rev 16:2 "the mark of the beast"
Rev 19:20 "the mark of the beast"
Rev 20:4 "his mark"

Notice that in four of these, it is referred to with his, and in the other two with the beast (singular). It is pretty clear this is the mark of a particular man.

Next, the wisdom spoken of refers to Jewish gematria, the practice of calculating a number associated with a name. I don't see how it could be any clearer that this is what Revelation is talking about.

So the question is, what name is it referring to? If you dispense with the assumption that Revelation is about some future event, and realize it was about events unfolding in that day, it becomes trivially easy to narrow down the cast of possible characters.

Caligula best fist the descriptions. He even went as far as errecting a statue of himself in the holiest of holies (aka the abomination). But, the number of his name is 616, not 666. However, a scrap from the revelation story has been recovered from the dead sea scrolls that shows the number as 616 rather than 666!

So what's up with 666? This is where you have to dispense with all Biblical literalism and understand that the Revelation story is the unfolding of a myth just like the rest of the NT. The Revelation story originally involved Caligula. But, when he failed to fulfill parts of Daniel that the story rested on, it was remastered. Nero was a nasty dude who was responsible for the destruction of the temple, so he was associated with the beast of the myth instead. The number changed to 666 accordingly.

Do I get a cookie?



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

It isn't hard to understand what 666 is all about (or is it 616?). The business about 'wisdom' refers to 'secret' knowledge. Well it isn't so secret, but it is drt of like a secret handshake.

...

Next, the wisdom spoken of refers to Jewish gematria, the practice of calculating a number associated with a name. I don't see how it could be any clearer that this is what Revelation is talking about.


It is YOUR wisdom that refers this to Jewish gematria. Find even one bible precedent for Jewish gematria, and then I will gladly agree that Jewish gematria is BIBLE Wisdom. Until that time, I will favor David and Solomon over and above you, and will stick with BIBLE Wisdom, which is defined by both these men as KNOWLEDGE OF GOD'S WORD.

"Here is Wisdom" implies:

  • Here is Knowledge of God's Word
  • Here is Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures


If you don't let the BIBLE interpret itself, than you are subjecting it to YOUR own private interpretations. If you still want that cookie, just find ONE EXAMPLE of Jewish gematria, and you'll get milk with them cookies.

By the way, the same is true of the following:

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

It means, "And here is the mind which has the Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures".

In both cases, Rev 13 and Rev 17, both require the Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures to undrstand and interpret the phrase that immediately follows the word "Wisdom".



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Behold
It is YOUR wisdom that refers this to Jewish gematria. Find even one bible precedent for Jewish gematria, and then I will gladly agree that Jewish gematria is BIBLE Wisdom.


666 is the number of a man, and it can be calculated. If you reject gematria as the sense behind it, then you have nothing with which to decipher the meaning of the beast number. Your opening post is one of the most contorted abuses of scripture I've ever seen, so don't give me any lectures on hermaneutics.

You reject the simple straightforward interpretation of Revelation only because it doesn't fit the answer you decided in advance.

By the way, I didn't claim that the word "wisdom" always refers to gematria. That's a pretty pathetic strawman you constructed.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

666 is the number of a man, and it can be calculated. If you reject gematria as the sense behind it, then you have nothing with which to decipher the meaning of the beast number.


That's the problem right there though isn't it. You calculate it to be one person, and millions of others calculate it to be a host of other persons. Who calculated it right?

I reject gematria for the simple reason that it is never used any place else in the bible.

Why do you reject using the meanings of each letter? Why is using the meanings of each letter the wrong approach?

Chi Xi Stigma mean "Single [Individual]" + "honorable work [legal employment]" "Mark [Identifier]"

Rather than throw insults, how about you answer the following elementary questions:

  1. Does "Single" not also mean "Individual" ?
  2. Does "honorable work" not also mean "legal employment" ?
  3. Is a Branding Mark not used for the purpose of identifying that which is branded ?



Originally posted by spamandham
You reject the simple straightforward interpretation of Revelation only because it doesn't fit the answer you decided in advance.


Do you honestly not see that the same thing can be said of you? In fact, if we remove interpretation in place of MEANING, you are rejecting the simple straightforward meaning of Chi Xi Stigma.

I have no idea what country you live in, but I'm pretty sure that you have a unique number which identifies you to your government, and is used for the purposes of tracking your credits into whatever Social Security program that country uses, and those credits come from legally earned income. That being said, I have one last question. Would you say it is mere coincidense that the three letters actually written by John, have as their conjuctive meaning, a phrase that appears to have fulfillment in the world today?



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

By the way, I didn't claim that the word "wisdom" always refers to gematria. That's a pretty pathetic strawman you constructed.


Now where exactly did I say, or even infer, that you claimed "the word "wisdom" always refers to gematria" ?

What I did say was, "It is YOUR wisdom that refers this to Jewish gematria". The word "this" implies a single use, the single use here in Rev 13. And I said that because use said

Originally posted by spamandham
the wisdom spoken of refers to Jewish gematria



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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Gematria is useful in studying the genealogies in scripture—each name converted by gematria carries hidden and deeper meanings which enhance overall understanding of the bible. But to use gematria in the reverse—trying to find a definite name that fits a given number—is, at best, literally taking a shot in the dark.

The prevalent numerology system in the bible is one of symbolic representation given in the numbers used as quantifiers in any given narrative—by applying also the concept (s) given through the numbers used to the details given outright in any given story.

1 = Unity
2 = Duality
3 = Seed
4 = Creation
5 = Grace
6 = Redemption
7 = Divine perfection
8 = Regeneration
9 = Judgment
10 = Crown

For example:
The number saved from the flood, Noah’s family, was 8—representing regeneration.

3 represents ‘seed.’ Seth was the third son of Eve—and she said ‘God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.’ Genesis 4:25

6 represents redemption, which can only come about through death. And 6 is symbolic of human morality and is also the ‘hook.’

I don’t subscribe to the ‘trinity’ doctrine—I do not limit God to merely 3 facets or try to define His nature in similar manner. How can I? For I do believe that mankind is of a definitive triune nature, in the present time—the three facets being called
· Id, ego, superego
· Conscious, subconscious, superconscious
· Body, soul, spirit

And even ‘Me, Myself, and I.’

So the symbolic representation of ‘666’ can be understood as the mortal state of man’s triune nature when it is not aligned with God’s will.

Man is a beast—as far as being an animal, a mammalian fleshly creature—compared to the previous estate of the sons of god (which was spiritual rather than material)

And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there. I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:16-19)

The ‘image of the beast’, then, would be an image, or reflection, of man, himself. This is the hard pill for Christendom to swallow—because the god created by man in the name of ‘christianity’ about 300 years after Messiah’s visitation—is the image of the beast, which is the god pushed by the modern christian population (meaning more or less Sunday church goers of both catholic and protestant flavors, but not limited to those ones, either—but this is the identity of the beast with two horns like a lamb that speaks with the dragon’s voice)

In the end, the majority of the world already, at this very moment, holds one of three things more dear than God: their religion that is centered on the image of the beast, money and materialism, or they, themselves. In all three cases, it is back to the idea that man is a beast and the world worships it’s population, not it’s Creator.

To buy and sell is not a reference to our financial systems and needs—it is much deeper and is about sin, souls, and salvation. Only those who have not received the mark of the beast have the father’s name on their forehead (IOW—the eye of the Creator and understanding of His laws guide these). Only these are found blameless in Christ—and as such have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb—they have already been purchased, and their souls have been redeemed—they have absolutely no need for the man-made religious economy in all it’s variations—which is basically the obsession all religions have with sin, somehow. The Catholics have indoctrinated with the idea of penance and indulgences—which is the most blatant form of ‘buying and selling’ souls and salvation—but even the newest forms of Protestantism still focus on man’s sinful nature instead of the new man which comes through Christ and has no need to be concerned about sin—being freed from it’s bond there is freedom and ‘head space’—a state of being free of guilt and shame—which is necessary to apply one’s self to the work given by God.

In regard to the word ‘man’ in Revelation 13:18—

It is ‘anthropos’, meaning ‘man-faced’ or ‘human being’

A specific, certain individual would be ‘aner’, meaning ‘husband’, ‘fellow’, ‘sir’, ‘individual.’

Christ was the Son of man (anthropos) Matthew 10:23

Jairus was a certain man (aner) Luke 8:41
Zacchaeus was a certain man (aner) Luke 19:2


The number of the beast is not a certain man’s number—it would be ‘aner’, but it is the number of mankind—‘anthropos’.



posted on Aug, 23 2005 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Behold
That's the problem right there though isn't it. You calculate it to be one person, and millions of others calculate it to be a host of other persons. Who calculated it right?


I merely proposed the likely candidates from my perspective. We can never know with certainty who the author of Revelation was referring to, but that doesn't negate his obvious use of gematria. I gave you four instances from Revelation that clearly identify this number with 'a man'. Not men in general, not a nation, but a man. What basis do you have for presuming the text does not mean what it says?


Originally posted by Behold
I reject gematria for the simple reason that it is never used any place else in the bible.


How can you say that with a straight face? As queenie has already pointed out, the Bible is filled with it. But what does it matter if it is not used elsewhere? How does that invalidate the obvious?

The oldest extant copy of the Book of Revelation uses gematria for every single number, so it's pretty stretched to claim 666 has nothing to do with gematria.


Originally posted by Behold
Why do you reject using the meanings of each letter? Why is using the meanings of each letter the wrong approach?

Chi Xi Stigma mean "Single [Individual]" + "honorable work [legal employment]" "Mark [Identifier]"



You could be right in that it is not calculated from a man's name (even though that is what the text implies), but rather is exactly Chi X Stigma.

If that is what it is, then what is meant by it? In your analysis, you mistakenly took Chi to mean 'single' as in "one", but it's actual meaning is "single" as in "unmarried".

Xi could not mean "legal work", as the concept of the state being involved in labor did not exist at the time. If you're going to use this approach, you must use the proper meanings from that time, which from the source you provided is "to work good, to do good, to do well, act rightly".

And finally we have stigma, which you provided as " a mark pricked in or branded upon the body." I agree that this is a reference to a mark of ownership placed on a slave.

Maybe it refers to a particular man of the time who was unmarried, who acted like a good man, and who was a servant/slave/follower. Could it not simply be a reference to Judas?

Perhaps these numbers are referring to the equivalent Psalms that use the same numbering system?

Psalm 22; "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me..."
Psalm 14; "The fool has said in his heart 'there is no god...'"
Psalm 6; "O LORD, rebuke me not in thine anger,neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure..."

Perhaps it has something to do with these?

We could also look at the introductions to these 3 Psalms.

Psalm 22; "To the chief Musician upon Ai'jeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David."
Psalm 14; "To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David."
Psalm 6: "To the chief Musician on Neg'inoth upon Shem'inith, A Psalm of David."

Neg'inoth upon Shem'inith refers to an eight stringed instrument. No-one really knows what Ai'jeleth Shahar refers to, but a note in the margin reads 'the hind of the morning'. Since other such references involving the chief musician refer to instruments, Ai'jeleth Shahar was probably a musical instrument of some kind. Could 666 be a reference to 'the chief musician'?


Originally posted by Behold
Rather than throw insults, how about you answer the following elementary questions:

  1. Does "Single" not also mean "Individual" ?

  • Does "honorable work" not also mean "legal employment" ?
  • Is a Branding Mark not used for the purpose of identifying that which is branded ?


    See commentary on these above.


    Originally posted by Behold
    I have one last question. Would you say it is mere coincidense that the three letters actually written by John, have as their conjuctive meaning, a phrase that appears to have fulfillment in the world today?


    You have not used the correct meanings of those letters, so your analysis fails. The approach is not invalid, but the conclusion is.



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