The English with their 1915 battle tank and phosgene gas, their radar; and the Americans with the atomic bomb and the Norden bombsight had technology that was incredibly in advance of anything else, and so – they used it.

Yes they did because they had to, if another world war breaks out on the scale of WWII then that’s the time to use what you have been hiding. No need to reveal it now to go bomb some hut in Iraq.

Originally posted by Murcielago

The next one is called the TR-3B Astra (no relation in any way to the TR-3A), I dont think this one will be released to the public until around 50 years from now. I was built it the early 90's, the original prototype was 200 feet in length, but the operational models were 600 feet in length. there were 2 or 3 of the original ones built, and 3 of the operational 600 ft long ones.

This one is apparently the best of the best, it can hover indefiniatly, and it can change its RCS size at will, and has visual stealth, giving it the ability to show itself, hide itself, and even make it look like someother object or aircraft. It has a Magnetic Field Disrupter, which disrupts or neutralizes the effects of gravity on itself, which lowers its weight by 89%, making it far lighter then it really is. Its used for High altitude Recon. It is the most advanced human built craft, the only thing that beats it is the real alien controlled ufo's.

It can go into very high mach numbers, reported mach 9 at 120,000ft, but higher then that, its likely to go much faster because of less atmosphere.
It can do this because it does not have air inlets like normal aircraft.
It has 3 multimode rocket engines mounted under each corner of the craft use hydrogen or methane and oxygen as a propellent.

Now what exactly is a "magnetic field disrupter?

And it's curious that it is a triangle shape and not a spinning circle ...

Murcielago,

What (credible) sources did you use to assemble this list of black projects and can you attribute specific projects/propulsion systems to specific defense contractors? Do you plan to update this list which is incomplete by nature of the subject? Also, the designation of TR for the Astra implies Tactical Recon. - why not SR (strategic recon) for a vehicle that is massive in size and no doubt in development and operational budget, logistical support requirements, etc.?

Here are somethings to consider, "black project" codes names and aircraft designations if any change from time to time according to the whims of the government agencies responsible for development and operation of these vehicles. At any given time, the US will no doubt field at least one hi altitude, high speed Strategic Recon Vehicle; at least one cost effective Tactical Recon Vehicle;
and assorted special mission vehicles. So it should not suprise anyone that there is another Blackbird perhaps Aurora, another U-2 perhaps the TR-3, etc.

In any case, the Black Aircraft/Spacecraft List is an ATS lovers Jackpot and deserves much more attention and updates. Thanks.

Westpoint23 says (in response to my comment on actually using clasified assets):

Yes they did because they had to, if another world war breaks out on the scale of WWII then that’s the time to use what you have been hiding. No need to reveal it now to go bomb some hut in Iraq.

That's not he way it works. Think about how long it takes to take a flying testbed through weapons systems and C4I2 integration, IOT&E, LRIP (low rate initial production) and then fielding production units. That's about ten years for systems like the F-22 and F-35.

Then figure out how long it will take to put the logistics "tail" in place, including sparing, three-level depot maintenance, training of both operators and maintainers, etc. Another five years?

If a major war breaks out (e.g., between the US and the PRC), and we do not have these hypothetical assets fielded, trained, and supported right now, they'll never be used.

I think the fact that most people miss is this:

Most "black" aircraft are not exotic airframes that can fly at crazy speeds, like the supposed Aurora or Brilliant Buzzard. Nor are they fleets or squadrons of exotic stealth tactical aircraft, yet to be imaged or acknowledged.

In fact, most "black" aircraft are actually airframes that look very much like other existing airframes, yet there are internal modications or test bed equipment that is so revolutionary, it must be protected as a "black" project. The lion's share of black project aircaft are actually just 707's, RC-135's, Falcon 20's, C-130's, and so forth that have special modifications, or internal equipment that is highly classified. You are not going to pay much attention to one of these aircraft if you happen to see on sitting on a runway or parked in a hanger, and their low profile appearance allows them to transit in the open, during daylight, and their presence at certain places can be easily explained away with a cover story.

Now, the gizmos inside these aircraft are the crown jewels, and that is what the government doesn't want us to see...................

Pyros - Examples? To me it sounds like your talking about things like radar systems or new communication systems...but for things like having a different propulsion method you cant use any of those aircraft you listed, you need an aircraft(frame) designed for that engine.

templar8 - I think you forgot that these are aircraft that "dont exists" (according to the gov). So I dont how you think specific specs are available.
Oh, and as far as what its called...They (meaning the USAF) call them different things to confuse you, Like the F-117 being a fighter. and another example is: The Global Hawk is called Tier II+, the Predator is called Tier II, the Darkstar is called Tier III-, Those 3 UAS' are completely different aircraft, for different roles, yet there names are close to the same, making the average person think its the same craft just updated, like F-15 A/B/C & so on.

Off_the_Street - I would just like to point out that i'm not "sold" on anti-grav, I too have my doubts of its existance. and who says that (if they have it) there not using it? They can still use antigrav without the need to make it public knowledge.

Pyros, what you say is exactly correct.

But then, that's not a surprise, after I saw the "Old Crow" under your avatar.

I believe I can take whatever an AOC person says to the bank.

Hmm all very interesting, the only crafts in that list I find different are the Brilliant Buzzard and the Stealth Blimp.

I have doen research into the Black Manta, TR-3B, and just possibly even the Aurora.

The Aurora from what I have found, is only a series of Ultra Top Secret air craft all put down under one project name, as to avoid confusion and make people think it is an aircraft and not several.

Now the thing about black aircraft and all the information that is on that list is that, it's not 100 percent true and concrete, it can't be, we just don't know, all of that is educated guess and what little information is leaked out.

I my self believe in the TR-3B's exsitence very strongly for 1 reason, which I'd prefer to keep to myself. Everything else I am un sure of, but what I can be sure of, is that you can't necesarily trust what you've been given.

They're black for a reason, it's because we don't know about them 100 percent. Maybe one day, but as for a wait of 10, 15 years to find out, no, alot more than that, maybe even never. We can never tell what the government will do at this point, unless we are involved with these projects directly.

Shattered OUT...

Good post Murcielago!

I heard some rumors from a friend that the TR-3B is capable of interstellar travel, used by the Delta Force and it has to stop every so often.

Ofcourse there is no proof what so ever, but it would be quite interesting if it was true.

OtS, you made some excellent points, but the designation of most black aircraft are either SR or TR, so they are mainly employed by the Inteligence sector rather than a combat sector like the airforce, perhaps that's why they are still black? there is no need to declassify projects that don't fight...? just a thought

Originally posted by Murcielago
I would just like to point out that i'm not "sold" on anti-grav, I too have my doubts of its existance. and who says that (if they have it) there not using it? They can still use antigrav without the need to make it public knowledge.

I do not know if anti-grav is alive or not. I do know the US govt was researching it in the 1950's when T Townsend Brown stumbled on something that became classified. Knowing the US govt, I would doubt that this research stopped. I would suspect it has continued and discovered many new things in the last 50 years.

Too bad Pravda is not a very credible news source, still interesting though if confirmed.

ground zero says;

OtS, you made some excellent points, but the designation of most black aircraft are either SR or TR, so they are mainly employed by the Inteligence sector rather than a combat sector like the airforce, perhaps that's why they are still black? there is no need to declassify projects that don't fight...? just a thought

Actually, most classified programs are designated by a code name, like "Tacit Blue" or "Have Quick". Outside of the Lockheed SR-71, the only black aircraft I am familiar with as having actually existed are the F-117 and the B-2, neither of which is an intelligence gathering airplane.

My belief is that if there are any secret airplanes in use (and there probably are) they're not necessarily intel assets. The reason I think this is that Lockmart recently won a big program to integrate an intel platform (based on an Embraer aircraft, which may not end up filling the bill after all -- see today's WSJ article on Lockheed).

And, of course, the hottest tickets in the platform business these days are UAVs and UACVs, many of which contain classified whizz-bangs, but are at least known to be in development or in the procurement pipeline.

So that gets back to my original question. If we have these magic secret airplanes which are limited to intel-gathering capabilities, why are we spending so much money on intel aircraft the existence of which is not classified?

And while we're mulling tht one over, we need to ask that if there really were intel aircraft with those tremendous capabilities, including loiter, high speed, large capacity, all of those characteristics are desirable for non-intel applications, too. In other words, why would we design an old-fashioned high bypass turbofan airplane to blow the bad guys up where you could adapt an intel aircraft with incredible capabilities to do the same task so much better?

I tend to go along with Pyros. I'm not saying there aren't exotic new airframes with incredible capabilities, but I don't see any evidence for this at all. Instead, just looking at the pattern of defense procurement (of which I have some knowledge), it seems that all the evidence obviates against huge new propulsion technologies, and the whizzbangs under development, while really neat -- and really classified -- are evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

OTS,

Agreed. I have had access to many programs, and have spent a decent amount of time out on the west coast conducting testing. I have never even heard a peep about anything remotely as big as an "Aurora", or otherwise. Actually, I was quite impressed with the size and scope of the TACIT BLUE program when it was declassified, and the fact that their PMO was able to keep OPSEC in place so well for so long.

If you recall, even during the Carter administration their were rumblings and rumor mongering about the "stealth bomber" and "stealth fighter", and terms like ATB and XST were in the printed press on a regular basis. By this time both programs had transititioned from DARPA to USAF, and had become "unacknowledged" programs. Well, even thought these programs were black, there was still press coverage, and nod and winks, and not-so hidden budget numbers. In other words, for folks in or near the community, it was obvious that something was up. Something big.

Not true in the case of Aurora. No blips, not activity, no "inside' rumors, nothing. While I firmly believe that the USAF or DARPA may be developing a tactical variant of the F-117, or a scaled down version of the B-2 for tactical recce, EW, or specops (this would seem to offer a lower-cost approach using established technology), I find it very hard to believe that the USAF has any significant number of tactical aircaft using exotic propulsion, or even a small number of large, hypersonic aircraft. If there are such aircraft in inventory,.....what huge OPSEC success that is. My peronal opinion is that Aurora was a codename for a defunct aerospace project that never got of the ground 9or off the drawing board, for that matter), and the USAF is happy to have it out there, deflecting attention away from real programs.

Forget Pravda, check the US Patent office on anti-gravatics, EM devices, etc. Something on the books is definitely out there. Lockheed is certainly experimenting with it, so is Northrop Grumman, if not for lift than for directional assist, stability, etc.

In my full opinion, I do not believe the TR-3B is capable of interstellar travel, that would be really out there. Also, the TR-3B, if real, would mean that the government has had contact with ET's because the TR-3B is supposedly reverse engineered from Alien Technology.

This also may contribute to the reason why the TR-3B is so safely guarded and probably will never come out to the public, the government possibly feels very strongly about the existence of ET's that have come to Earth and do not want the general public to know about them.

Shattered OUT...

[edit on 24-8-2005 by ShatteredSkies]

OTS
So that gets back to my original question. If we have these magic secret airplanes which are limited to intel-gathering capabilities, why are we spending so much money on intel aircraft the existence of which is not classified?

You mean like the Global Hawk, which costs around 40 mill? If so, Its to help keep the cover, and the folks who make these aircraft dont know about any secret aircraft that could do the job better then the one there building.

With each day that passes reading things about the Aurora if you ask me I would say that it is a cancelled project. Probably because at the time it didn't work and/or was too expensive. I think that they are not hiding the scram-jet technology and that in fact the X-43 has been the most successful that they had with it. All things point that the Aurora was a Mach 5 plane that used methane as fuel but that is consumption was too high to make it viable.

I think at this time they are probably considering a new UCAV plane using the X-43 as template.

[edit on 24-8-2005 by iris_failsafe]

"I do not know if anti-grav is alive or not."

What would it take to convince you it's not? The Boeing rumour was dispelled, Nick Cook's book has been discredited, Podkletnov has come up with nothing (even NASA dropped the rotating superconductor research) and let's face it, there's nothing to see.

Plasma aerodynamics on the other hand, which can conveniently hide under the cover story of electrogravity (even though they are nothing of the sort) would be extremely handy for a fast, stealthy craft. I would be amazed if the US did not have a fairly advanced program along these lines - perhaps more advanced than the Russians.

Looking at the history of black aircraft, nothing will be allowed to jeapordise white projects the way the B-2 almost killed the B-1. So I don't imagine there's a black F/A-22. I also strongly suspect that black research funding is going into weapons and sensors rather than airframes, as that's where the gains are to be made. Look out for stealthy, ultra-precise cruise missiles with unusual terminal capabilities backed by multispectral targetting and sensing.