da vinci movie

Posted by LoganCale:

If the churches are so concerned that a self-proclaimed work of fiction is going to sway their faith, then they clearly do not have faith in their own beliefs.
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It's not the faith of the believer that is at risk by books such as this, it's the heart of the unbeliever. Satan does not wish for them to believe, he wants them to be with him and keep them from God. Neither you or I would ever accept such slander as truth. But the reason it is out there is to cast doubt on Christ and thus keep people from ever knowing Him as we do.

Fromabove

[edit on 3-1-2006 by Fromabove]

The davinci code presents a catholic organization as involved in a murderous conspiracy and presents the catholic church as having been involved in a terrible conspiracy.

Obviously the church is going to be opposed to the book and to people watching a movie about the book. It doesn't indicate that the church members have no faith in their own religion.

Honestly though, the book doesn't present the current church in that bad of a light.

If I understand it correctly Opus Dei is not exactly a part of the Catholic Church, at least in the traditional sense. It's called a personal Prelature; a status acquired sixty-three years after it was founded.

Here's the official website:
Opus Dei

And that of their most vocal critic:
Opus Dei Awareness Network

Of course in "The Da Vinci Code" the Opus Dei members do a lot of the dirty work but the true mastermind is a theological researcher/symbolist. For some reason you don't hear them complaining about being negatively cast like you do with the Catholics and other Christians. Maybe they're less sensitive because the organizational bodies they belong to, if any, weren't responsible for some of history's greatest acts of violence and cultural eradication, so any perceived negativity doesn't hit quite so close to the bone. Or maybe they're able to comprehend that a book can feature characters that act as individuals and not necessarily as allegorical representatives of any group said character might belong to. There are bad guy cowboys, for example, in many novels, but no one takes it to mean that the author is saying all cowboys are evil. Brown actually portrays the modern Catholic Church in a fairly positive manner in "Angels and Demons".

To help clarify the discussion, especially regarding where the line between fact and fiction lies in "The Da Vinci Code", and because I suspect many who are willing to pontificate over this book would never buy or borrow a copy unless they were going to burn it, here's Dan Brown's statement from the opening of the novel:

Fact

The Priory of Sion- a European secret society founded in 1099- is a real organization. In 1975 Paris' Bibliotheque Nationale discovered parchments known as Les Dossiers Secrets, identifying numerous members of the Priory of Sion, including Sir Isaac Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo, and Leonardo Da Vinci.

The Vatican prelature known as Opus Dei is a deeply devout Catholic sect that has been a topic of recent controversy due to reports of brainwashing, coercion, and a dangerous practice known as "corporal mortification". Opus Dei has just completed construction of a $47 million National Headquarters at 243 Lexington Avenue in New York City.

All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate.

The information in "Les Dossiers Secrets" is quite controversial, a fact that Brown makes no mention of, but it is clear from this statement that the information uncovered by the characters in the fictional story are derived from real sources in the real world. Dan Brown is not manufacturing the variation of the Jesus legend that has him escaping execution, marrying the Magdalene and siring Sarah the Egyptian. This is a legend found in several forms of Gnosticism. The origins of this relationship between Christ and the Magdalene are actually pre-Christian, meaning they conform to patterns found between agricultural/solar deities in numerous Indo-European polytheistic systems. Actually the most ludicrous piece of fiction in "The Da Vinci Code" is the idea that the deaths of a handful of people could erase this legend from history, as it is not nearly as obscure as it has been made out to be.

So this really is just a tempest in a teapot, fueled largely by sensationalistic marketing. Pauline Christian (Catholic and Protestant) concepts have coexisted with Gnostic concepts for thousands of years. Not always nicely by any means, but it's just another theological form and in this day and age that's nothing to get all worked up about. Save your gasoline and put away the torches. No one is forcing you to read the book or watch the movie. It's noble, I suppose, to be concerned for the spiritual welfare of others, but save your energies for those who are really asking for your help and leave the rest of us alone. I don't recall any portion of Christ's message that involved information control.


[edit on 3-1-2006 by Cicada]

You have voted Cicada for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

quote by Fromabove:
But Christians by and large follow Christ.

Reply by Stalkingwolf:
Wrong! They follow Paul or more precicely Jesus as interpreted by Paul. What
Paul teaches that Jesus taught. All from a man that for what ever reason fell off his ass, took a knock on his head , and had a "vision"
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All Christians sects claim to follow Jesus. What sets those who take the name Christian and leave of the Catholic is that they do not listen to the Pope, nor is the Pope considered infallible. The worship of Mary is not considered, nor prayer to saints, the rosary, etc, etc, etc... catholics follow Catholic teaching additional to the Gospel. Tradition is on equal status with Cannon. Christians follow the teaching written by Paul as directed by Christ. Paul points to Christ and no one else. But the purpose of the "Christian" is to follow the "Christ" and not religious teaching on things that conflict with the Bible. This is not to say that there are not those within the Catholic religion that follow the Christ as Lord above all, and Him alone.

Fromabove

Everyone in the catholic church follows jesus as the lord on high. Catholics don't worship mary, the saints, or statues and idols. They might respect the saints and mary, but they don't worship them as gods. Catholics beleive in jesus as lord and in the holy trinity.

Not all christians worship jesus. Unitarian christians do not beleive in a trinity of gods/godhead and do no accept the divinity of christ, but otherwise follow him and are christians.

new testament was the biggest mistake, isa was real but was not "son" of god, and did isa had sex with mary?, i dont think muslims worry about Hz muhhanmed doing the same!

and while the book is admittedly a fiction mystery, how can the paintings
of da vinci (and works of various artists), as well as the history of the secret
society that da vinci belonged to be explained?...if there isn't anything to
hide, why the fear?...personally, upon looking close at da vinci's paintings
(in books, of course) i found them both disturbing and hair raising at the
same time...the story of jesus and mary magdelene...why the efforts to
keep the story alive?...why the efforts to squash?...

Originally posted by cassiedaddy
, how can the paintings of da vinci (and works of various artists), as well as the history of the secret society that da vinci belonged to be explained?

No one has demonstrated that da vinci belonged to any secret socieites, and the priory of sion was a hoax. As for the artwork, dan brown interprets the artwork. Infact, his genius, more or less, was to take all these conspiracy theories, about history, documents, and messages in different artworks, and put them together into a cohesive and compelling story.

i found them both disturbing and hair raising at the same time...

I see nothing hair raising about the history presented, in so far as its too poor to, ultimately, be beleiveable. As for interpreting paintings, yes, paintings can me different things to different people, just like a rorshach test. One person sees a scence from myth, another person sees social commentary, and another sees a conspiracy theory. Merely because an interpretation is exciting hardly means that its true.

the story of jesus and mary magdelene...why the efforts to
keep the story alive?

Perhaps better to ask, when did these stories, and the grail stories, start? Long, long after the events.

Just like brown's books are impressive and suggestive and romantisizing of our own past, the Grail Knights tales and the Knightly Romances of the middle ages were suggestive, impressive, and romantisised their past. But that hardly means any of it was true.

serlex
i dont think muslims worry about Hz muhhanmed doing the same!

Considering that mary'd be a 700 year old rotted corpse, I should hope mohammed wasn't having sex with her.
I don't understand what you are suggesting, everyone agrees that mohammed had sex with his wives.

isa was real but was not "son" of god,

Thats a matter of faith. Also, there are certainly conspiracy type books about islam that have the religious authorities up in arms, like the Satanic Verses, which claim that there were portions of the koran that Mohammed eventually came to beleive were inspired by Satan, and then removed them.

Originally posted by Nygdan
No one has demonstrated that da vinci belonged to any secret socieites, and the priory of sion was a hoax. As for the artwork, dan brown interprets the artwork. Infact, his genius, more or less, was to take all these conspiracy theories, about history, documents, and messages in different artworks, and put them together into a cohesive and compelling story.

It's a grey area. It is hard to place too much stock in documents Pierre Plantard has admitted to forging and planting in the Bibliotheque Nationale, but quite frankly the story of Plantard's hoax is nearly as fantastic as the documents. There are clues about the esoteric nature of Da Vinci in his artwork. Maybe the proof needed just hasn't arrived in the form of the proper analysis by the proper person. Despite the fact that some might like to dismiss this whole line of theory, analysis and investigation out of hand, it doesn't really erase the historical enigmas surrounding Rosicrucianism, even if all of these matters are hoaxes or ludibriums. You know, they may just call it the Invisible College for a reason.

Also, as far as I could tell there wasn't much analysis in the book of any artwork that Brown derived on his own, I could be wrong.

It's also not quite accurate to compare any deliberatly fashioned pictoral image to a Rorschach test. If Da Vinci could hear you say that I bet he'd be ticked off about it. You talk about what isn't known, what can't be known, and what is just interpretation but there are things that are known and can be learned. One thing that we do know is that many artists, visual and otherwise, created works with both exoteric and esoteric levels of meaning. Examining the life, writings, interests and associations suggests that this might be true of Da Vinci. You will find few art historians, mainstream or otherwise, who would say that the work of Da Vinci is not an enigma. It's also possible this obvious master of illusion has fooled us all. At any rate, there's no reason not to investigate and form hypothesis about the esoteric nature of artworks.

The other major factor here is that as an expression of heretical Gnostic theology there was every reason for proponents of the Jesus-Mary marriage legend to both preserve and hide their beliefs during much of Western history.

For more on this topic visit the threads:


The Da Vinci Code
My Theory on the Secret Behind Rennes-le-Chateau
Following the Underground Stream

has anyone traced the bloodline to today, looked up a living hier and knocked on their door to see if they could perform miracles or anything like that ?

I'd assume you can track the morovingians (sorry, too lazy to look it up right now) and go ask them, right ?

You will never trace Jesus Christ to the Merovingians. You WILL trace many Roman emperors, rulers of Persia, and so forth. Nero himself can be traced in Queen Victoria's genealogy.

sorry, I wasn't clear.

I don't believe jesus is related to the merovingians, I'm curious if you can trace the bloodline to a current family ?

I've read the dynasty petered out in 751 AD.....

I think this whole thing is hillarious!!!
Churches protesting the movie, even Islam! (what do they care?)

Its a movie, who cares? Some say it may convince people that its version of reality is true...and then what? People need to care about there own souls and let other be...Christians are a pushy lot. :-)

peace

dalen

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
I don't believe jesus is related to the merovingians, I'm curious if you can trace the bloodline to a current family?

My own family holds certain, very secret records, which indicate that I am a direct descendant of Jesus H. Christ, Lord of the Dance. These secret records are naturally secret, so I can't show them to you, being secret and all. But I will say that they are authentic, and even have Jesus's signature on them. In Greek. And they're notarized.

And yes, I can raise the dead, but I very rarely find anyone who really needs it.

Originally posted by dAlen
I think this whole thing is hillarious!!!
Churches protesting the movie, even Islam! (what do they care?)

Its a movie, who cares? Some say it may convince people that its version of reality is true...and then what? People need to care about there own souls and let other be...Christians are a pushy lot. :-)

peace

dalen

The "who cares" issue is not fair. We live in a media-rich environment that is shockingly ignorant. Americans in particular have been programmed to believe what they see on TV and in the movies. Many have a difficult time seperating fact from fiction. Even more people are more than willing to shift their perceptions of what is real to suit what they fancy to be real. The Catholic Church - especially in America - has a long and painful history of persecution and slander. St. Mary's Church in New Haven was built on Hillside Ave - one of the most exclusive neighborhoods in New Haven and on the fringes of the venerable Yale University. The New York Times wasted no time blasting the church as an abomination, an eyesore, and an attempt to pollute this bastion of respectibility with a flood of the unwashed, ignorant, and foul masses of immigrants. Catholics in many states had limitations on land ownership - which limited their access to the franchise - for a number of years. Once again, in Connecticut a Catholic man could not hold land...by law. It required a constitutional convention to correct this practice and it was one of the most controversial arguing points of the convention.

I have argued that if I as a Catholic man wrote a book or a screenplay or TV show that assaulted another group the way the DaVince Code has assaulted Christianity, every secular humanist group in the nation would be burning me in effigy... if I was lucky. Even guys like Jack Chick peddle his slanderous tripe and no one raises an eyebrow. So you wonder that we are a little edgy? You wonder that we are concerned that the great illiterate masses might take Brown's twisted (and plagarized) plot and think it has the cachet of authenticity? A number of cable channels have lended credence to this by having specials dealing with 'decoding' the DaVinci Code and gave generous amounts of air time to lunatics and anti-Catholics spouting their theories about the 'truth' behind DaVinci's secret messages. How many people bought into this? Too many. There are a number of people who believe that Brown wrote this as fiction because he was afraid to present it as nonfiction. Finally, Brown himself has made no demurr about his dislike for the Catholic church. A win-win. Write a crappy murder mystery, spice it up by attacking the secular world's favorite whipping boy, and VIOLA! A New York Times Bestseller....hmmm, the Times also wrote that anti-Catholic story about St. Marys.... there's a century-long conspiracy there, I'm sure of it.....Oh no? How absurd am I? You're right. That's very absurd. Just like the 'truth' of the Priory of Scion. Just like the 'truth' of the 'true and secret church'. Just like the 'clues' left by that oh-so pious and noble DaVinci.

I read the book - borrowed it from the library as I would be damned before a gave Brown a penny of my money. Bad enough my tax dollars bought the book...

To those of you who are desperately seeking the meaning of the Last Supper. Relax. DaVinci LOVED playing with people's mind. THe Mona Lisa is likely a gender-bending self-portrait. There are depictions of people and events that he planted in the Last Supper - among other works - that served as both in-jokes and subtle digs to his employer - the Church. Sometimes, a cigar is JUST a cigar.

I applaud the other churches who have spoken out against this movie and the book. I also don't see why people are surprised that Islamic clerics have protested it. They are People of the Book. They revere Christ as a prophet. They respect the sanctity of the beliefs of other people of Faith.

As a parting note, I personally was thrilled to hear that the critics at Cannes were less than impressed. I am also gratified that the movie is eagerly awaited in China. I figure that they will actually end up selling a dozen tickets before a flood of bootlegs deluge China and the studio takes a bath.

As always - thanks for indulging me by reading this epistle.....

shantyman, appreciate your post, and you say you read the book, well maybe the difference is that some people read for enjoyment, excitement and escape. Maybe your approach is all wrong. If you don't like the subject don't read it.

Who are you to impose on what other people read, and deny them there own opinions. Are you one of those who feel people should not have a right to choose, for fear they may not agree with you and your beliefs?

I took DaVinche Code with as much grain of salt as I took your post, it is my choice what I choose to believe. A fast paced well written exciting adventure story, if you can't even feel that from the book, then you read it for all the wrong reasons, or you have crappy taste in adventure stories.

I tried to read the bible once or twice, but found that the STORY, wasn't fast paced or well written and was certainly lacking in excitment and adventure. I guess some stories are not always to everyones liking.

Originally posted by shantyman
The "who cares" issue is not fair.

Fairness is the ability to let others make their own choices without trying to force ones opinion down their throat, no matter how right one may feel he/she is. This is actually called love.

The Christians would do good to learn from their teacher Jesus.

I dont recall him shoving any religion down anyones throats, or forcing or telling people to change.
Yes people change, but it was not through coercion, fear, or guilt...all of which prevade most of mainstream christianity, though the person inlvolved is to deep into it to call it for what it is.

Point is, if a religious group doesnt like a film, they can make their own website and post their opinions for those who care.
And if I were to turn the table, I could argue that many of the people who attend church are being lied to and manipulated, so I should protest and have all churches shut down.

However, no matter how much I were to believe this, its not for me to push my will on others, this is witchcraft/sorcery. I can be myself and if someone wants to follow, let them follow...now this is back to the original teachings of the man Jesus that the Christians claim to follow.

Fear drives us to try to control, I will emphasize that I am not against the Christians Jesus, but can see that the church has became more like a government and twisted Jesus words to do so...and in so doing left what the original essence of the teachings of Jesus were behind.

This can get long winded, and already is...from experience I know that I cannot change a persons opinion...when the student is ready the teacher appears. My words may or may not ever make sence to those who read this, and even deeper, those who can relate to what I wrote, will do so at different levels...this is not about control to make sure there are a bunch of dalen bots who see the world as I do.

Then why right, one may ask...just because.

And as for those protesting to close down the movie... that to has its place I suppose, but those doing it dont see that its all a story which really isnt all that relevant.

Life is short, to short to stress about movies & mother-in-laws.

take care all

peace

dalen

I haven't read this whole thread, so I apoligize if this point has been brought up...

The people who protest these movies and books (The Last Temptation of Christ, The DaVinci Code, etc.) are the ones who actually make them so popular. I, being non-religious, would never go see a movie about Christ, but with all the hubbub around it, I will. Just so I can participate in the frenzy! I just bought the book the other day to see what all the people are so upset about.

I went to the theatre in 1988 to see LToC and had to have my purse searched for weapons because of the crazy religious people who were 'boycotting' the movie by shooting at the screen and so on. We had to cross picket lines to see a movie!

Now, I don't know if my memory is correct or not, but I don't recall an organized protest against the movie "Passions of the Christ" by non-religious people... And I had no interest in that movie.

So, my point is that the religious people, who want so badly for the LToC and The Davinci Code to go away, are the very people who are giving them 18 times more exposure than they would have gotton without protests and boycotts.

The makers of these movies love the fact that the Christians are so upset. It means more $$ in their accounts.

Just something to think about.

Edit:

Ian McKellen, an openly homosexual actor who plays a key role in the film, tried to inject humor into the controversy surrounding the movie.

"I'm very happy to believe that Jesus was married," McKellen said. "I know the Catholic Church has problems with gay people, and I thought this would be absolute proof that Jesus was not gay."

Is this Movei Dangerous to Christians?

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

B.H. is right, the more people protest, the more people want to see what the protest is about. Curiosity usually gets the better of most people.

jam.canoe.ca...


Funny as I'm typing this, Citypulse 24 news(Canada) is talking about the movie, and they keep saying "we just want to keep asking our viewers to remember that the movie is only fiction"., what nerve assuming that we should be told this by the media.

If I want to believe that the whole freaking story is true, thats my bussiness isn't it?