WAR: NYCLU Sues City to Stop Subway Searches

Djarums
This is probably what he/she was thinking of, an interview with Theodore Haas.
Link

I see creeping fascism in America, just as in Germany, a drip at a time; a law her, a law there, all supposedly passed to protect the public. Soon you have total enslavement. Too many Americans have forgotten that tyranny often masquerades as doing good.

Edit: Soon they'll want to know what's on the laptop. That's the creeping doom. Who knows what they'll want next. My guess is your lunch.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by WyrdeOne]

ROFLMAO! Random Searches never work, they only put the bad guys on higher alert. The chances of them actually stopping an attack are like 10 to the power 50,000 to 1 against. Waste of time and Money while causing commuters to lose some liberty while your at it.

You vill conform citizen! Vhere are your papers!

We had heightend security for a bit on our subways in Toronto but then we relized that according to US Propoganda we are a Terrorist haven so they'd never attack us

Move along nothing to see hear.

Man sometimes I wonder how my parents survived the collective stupidy of the governments in power back in the 60s, this is how it must've felt except instead of extinction of Humanity hanging over our heads we have a bunch of Bearded Islamic Terrorists trying to blow up buildings, busses and subways. OOOHHHH! IM SHAKING IN MY BOOTS!

Keep perpetuating the culture of fear USA, it'll be your road to a dictatorship that some of you Neo-Cons seem to want.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by sardion2000]

Random bag seraches probably won't stop the terrorists but it might deter them, or at least slow them down so they can come up with new and exciting ways to kill and maim us.

I ride the NYC subways twice daily (sometimes more) and have yet to see a bag searched. I am all for it. Like the shoe removal at the airports, it is a nuisance and it slows down the travel time but if it stops one person from doing something, it was worth it. The NYCLU are doing nothing more than seeking publicity. I wouldn't be surprised if a judge ordered the searches stopped while the case was heard, only to have a few bombs go off in our subways. I wonder how many families of the dead and wounded will sue the NYCLU for opening the doors.

I see it as a very simple issue. Cop says "may I search your bag?"
person says yes...no big deal. search it and find nothing
person says no...cop says "I'm sorry, this area is owned by the city of new york and we cannot allow you to enter our subway system"

Incidentally, the bigger problem with the NYC subways is the turnstyles and rotating gate that will cause a major exit issue. People will get crushed trying to get out.

Next thing is that they start doing random house to house searches. Hey, you only 'may' have your residence searched and if you've done nothing illegal you dont have anything to hide. Maybe you'll agree to 'random' finger printing, dna-tests, maybe even carry a little transmitter under your skin since you dont have anything to hide.
Sarcasm aside, I think they've crossed the line and if you care at all for your privacy and what was written on a little piece of paper entitled 'constitution' you'll revolt.

ok, so, we should no longer search bags randomly. got it.

I guess it is is also wrong for airport screeners to x-ray my bags. Same concept, no?

why is it that people have no problem putting their bags on the x-ray bed and they have no problem with their checked luggage being x-ray'd but they feel as if their privacy is invaded if a cop opens up their bag and peeks in for incendiary devices? I don't see the difference. Explain how one is ok and the other is not.

otherwise, all of y'all saying we should revolt should try flying anywhere in the US and, when they ask you to put your bag on the x-ray bed, simply decline and tell them your rights are being violated. I want to see how you plan on getting on that plane

Random Searches never work, they only put the bad guys on higher alert.

Correct.

Do you have a car alarm? Do you think a criminal can't get by that? Of course they can.

No one is saying random searches are going to uncover bombs in people's purses. But wouldn't you want to sneak something into a place where there's 0% chance of getting checked rather than 20% chance of getting checked.

You vill conform citizen! Vhere are your papers!

This is so irrelevant to this conversation about bag searches that you're either grasping big time or you forgot what the topic was.

Finally to add to crakeur's point... these are areas of public domain. If you want to enter a transportation system owned by the city, you will follow their rules. As he said, if you want to go on a plane and refuse to consent to the bag x-ray you can turn around and go home.

Funny, these are the same people who whine about the concept of an ID card yet smile as they use their credit card, ez pass etc.

Doesn't sound like we're the ones not thinking properly.

I have the solution.

two sets of transportation.

one for those who are willing to be searched and who welcome the additional security measures.

one for the NYCLU and the people who would prefer to not submit to a bag check.

odds are you will never have trouble finding a seat on the second set.

I agree with some here that these announced random searches in the subway just tip off the bad guys. These cowards modus operandi always involves the element of surprise and instigating herd hysteria/panic. Now they know the transit authorities are executing serious situational awareness they will resort to more dastardly methods for sure. Not to give fuel to these islamokazis but since transit police are empowered with searching citizens I would hope they also are searching each other, for I can see this calculating scum stealing uniforms and impersonating. I also would hope they are inspecting all trains/tracks/tunnels before service begins because that person of interest might be carrying nothing more than a cell phone.

Well, I guess the only way feel secure here at home is to make room for a Full 97% Secrutiy and 3% Freedom...and also by making/rendering the constitution Null...

So when a tragic happened, pay attention to the end results...

---

Side note:
There was time where the media was doing frequent news reporting about children being kidnapped, almost daily. However, at the same time, coincidentally they were promoting the use of a rice-grain-size computer chip, which can be implemented under the skin.

Problem: children being kidnapped
Reaction: why? How to our children? I am affraid for my child's safety
Solution: Well we have this rice-grain-size computer chip, which would allow you to track your child via GPS.

The above scare tactic did yield to much response, so the news decrease it's coverage of child kidnapping...

Yet child kidnapping is still happening everyday...it was happening before the news media started covering them...and it still happening after...

Why the News media suddenly start covering them in first place...was to raise awareness or was for an hidden agenda...?

Gee, a school for lawyers suing to make sure they can get more cases.

I wonder if they're getting class credit for this?

Anything to perpetuate the bloated and dangerous system, where lawyers follow the money and create laws and biased penalties completely circumventing the government.

I see it as this- a person has a car accident, is sued by his neighbor who has disposable attorney income. Esentially, it is now against the law for a poor person to have an accident-the legal system, the police, and anyone else will enforce the decision made in court. Enforce the extortion the same way they'd enforce a fine from a legitimate penalty from a "real" law.

The system is officially screwed when lawyers blatantly make policy for states and nations.

...


[edit on 5-8-2005 by mwen]

Originally posted by Djarums
No one is saying random searches are going to uncover bombs in people's purses. But wouldn't you want to sneak something into a place where there's 0% chance of getting checked rather than 20% chance of getting checked.

And if we were to have the two different subways (as proposed) and one were to be hit, the "secure" subway would be the target. Why? Because you cause a lot more trouble to screw up the system people least expect. We keep aknowledging that the random searches are only an image, so why does it make people feel safer? Some people call it "faith," but I think it's nuts.

Finally to add to crakeur's point... these are areas of public domain. If you want to enter a transportation system owned by the city, you will follow their rules. As he said, if you want to go on a plane and refuse to consent to the bag x-ray you can turn around and go home.

Funny, maybe you should check but since when are airports a public domain? Every airport I've been in (here in the US) is a commercial entity with a similar structure to a mall. When buying a plane ticket you accept the terms and agreement of the airline, which includes the safety matters, procedures, etc. Similarly you do close to the same with public transportation, but here's the difference: one's a public interest, one's a private interest.

What's my point? If McDonalds wants to strip search me when I eat there, I can resist by leaving. If you resist by leaving on a subway, you get 5 shots to the head. link

Like many posters said before, is this necessary when we're not doing the things we know we need to do to ACTUALLY deter someone? Until those measures are taken, random searches really are just another drop in the bucket.

Funny, these are the same people who whine about the concept of an ID card yet smile as they use their credit card, ez pass etc.

Doesn't sound like we're the ones not thinking properly.

More private interests. I think you are the one not thinking properly since you keep suggesting there is no difference between public interest and private interest. I think these people are just as dissatisfied with the POSSIBILITIES of what those mentioned luxuries could implicate, but like me they don't want to see the government's face on a national database of everything you want to know about number 256-00-8377 (including where they currently are).

Originally posted by Street Scholar Every airport I've been in (here in the US) is a commercial entity with a similar structure to a mall. When buying a plane ticket you accept the terms and agreement of the airline, which includes the safety matters, procedures, etc. Similarly you do close to the same with public transportation, but here's the difference: one's a public interest, one's a private interest.

the airports in NY are run by the Port Authority. The airlines lease space but the rules regarding safety and inspection are handled by the PA. The PA handles screening of passengers (they are reducing the number of screeners in two of the 2 major airports here).


When you buy a ticket you are subject to the rules of that airline when you are on their plane. when you are in the airport, you are going to answer to the port authority (or whomever operates the airports in your city- usually a branch of the local gov't).

I feel like I am going to lose my lunch here, I actually have to agree with the NYCLU. Ever heard the old saying "Governments can only do two things. Remove liberties and redistribute wealth."? Well it is pretty much true. Remember after 9/11 everybody saying "You have to do this or the terrorists win!"? Well if the legality of these searches are upheld in court, give the terrorists a point on their scoreboard.

In principal I would have to agree with the searches. In reality I am totally against them. I don't like the way that they keep eroding our civil rights. George Orwell's 1984 is going to happen eventually it is just a matter of time. We keep giving up our rights and freedoms milimeter by milimeter in the name of security, protection of our children and personal safety.

Remember the original idea behind the sobriety checkpoints? We need to get the few drunks off of the roads to protect everyone else. Now they are primarily used to generate revenue for municipalities supposedly to pay for things that we already pay taxes for. Want to have some real fun? If everyone can totally obey the law to the letter for six months, we can put the cops out of business. The municipalities won't be able to afford them with out the revenues they generate in fines.

Pennsylvania, the state that I live in, is right now trying to pass a law to require that sex offenders have their location monitored at all times by satellite. The objective of this is supposedly to protect the state's children from being victims like the ones in Florida over the last year or so. I am all in favor of protecting children but I am not too thrilled with their definition of sex offender. Do a little mooning in high school? You're a sex offender. Get caught urinating behind a tree off of a highway? You're a sex offender. Have sex with your girlfriend on your 18th birthday while she is two months from hers? You're a sex offender. My personal favorite. Get stopped for speeding in a school zone, let your car be searched, (try to stop them) and be returning an adult movie to the video store. Hello sex offender. (possesing lewd or lavacious material in an area frequented by minors)

One of the main statements made by people in favor of these searches is the saying "If you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to worry about."
We have so many laws that you can find something on almost anyone. Remember Civics class. Ignorence of the law is no excuse. Good luck at knowing them all now. You can follow the letter of the law exactly and still be tried and convicted. All of our laws are interpreted now. You have to go by the precedent not the letter. A woman could voluntarily have her handbag searched. The officer finds a prescription pill bottle with a few pills in it that has been in her handbag for months. The prescription is two months out of date. She is arrested. Check the drug laws. In many cities including New York it is illegal to posess prescription drugs proscribed to you if the prescription is out of date.

I have no problem with searches at concerts, bars, getting on a plane or even McDonalds. These are all private events or establishments. If I don't want searched I go somplace else. The subway on the other hand is public transportation, subsidized with tax dollars.

The government is going to keep chipping away at our rights and freedoms little by little until 1984 becomes a reality.

Of course it "tips off the bad guys"! That's the freakin' point!

Scene: In a cave in Azzkrakistan\

Terrorist1: I want to blow up something

Terrorist2: Okay, how about something in New York..that worked well before.

Terrorist1: Cool-how about the subway?

Terrorist2: They check bags there-we might get caught!

Terrorist1: Okay, no subway bombs-we'll have to find something else.

Fade to black.

And the subway is safe. Pretty cool, huh? It's called "deterrence", or even "prevention". Or would it be better that we didn't "tip the bad guys off" and have them attempt the bombing?

Or is everyone buying into the "holy" Muslim propaganda and believing terrorism is an act of God and cannot be stopped or controlled? And that we'd all better just give in to extremist Islam demands and convert?

Originally posted by Vajrayana
I agree with some here that these announced random searches in the subway just tip off the bad guys. These cowards modus operandi always involves the element of surprise and instigating herd hysteria/panic. Now they know the transit authorities are executing serious situational awareness they will resort to more dastardly methods for sure. Not to give fuel to these islamokazis but since transit police are empowered with searching citizens I would hope they also are searching each other, for I can see this calculating scum stealing uniforms and impersonating. I also would hope they are inspecting all trains/tracks/tunnels before service begins because that person of interest might be carrying nothing more than a cell phone.

Originally posted by Crakeur
the airports in NY are run by the Port Authority. The airlines lease space but the rules regarding safety and inspection are handled by the PA. The PA handles screening of passengers (they are reducing the number of screeners in two of the 2 major airports here).

When you buy a ticket you are subject to the rules of that airline when you are on their plane. when you are in the airport, you are going to answer to the port authority (or whomever operates the airports in your city- usually a branch of the local gov't).

Ignorance denied. thanks.

Things here in CA are a bit different, every local is a little different. All of the SF/Oakland airports are run by private companies, while the airports of the great LA area are self governed as airport officers.
SFO OAK LAWA.

Originally posted by Street ScholarIgnorance denied. thanks.

Things here in CA are a bit different, every local is a little different. All of the SF/Oakland airports are run by private companies, while the airports of the great LA area are self governed as airport officers.
SFO OAK LAWA.

um, you're welcome?

simply stating how the 3 major NY/NJ airports are handled here. last time I checked a Port Authority cop was a cop. on the city payroll.

I think we need something like this:

The GE EntryScan3 takes advantage of the imperceptible air current that envelops your body. Called the human convection plume, this rising waft carries tiny particles from the body’s surface, including dead skin, perfume and, in the case of would-be bombers, residue from explosives. (It can identify narcotics as well.) The machine puffs air from the sides of the booth to accelerate the plume into the portal’s overhead detector. The strategy moves passengers through in a speedy 14 seconds, which is why the Transportation Security Administration installed five of the machines in U.S. airports this summer.

Popular Science

14 seconds, and you're done. Everyone can pass through, so there is no racial profiling. Of course, we may have to raise taxes on the rich to pay for it, so it'll probably never happen.

EDIT: Maybe we can sell some global struggle against violent extremism bonds, kind of like the old WWII war bonds.

[edit on 5-8-2005 by curme]

Originally posted by curme
I think we need something like this:

The GE EntryScan3 takes advantage of the imperceptible air current that envelops your body. Called the human convection plume, this rising waft carries tiny particles from the body’s surface, including dead skin, perfume and, in the case of would-be bombers, residue from explosives. (It can identify narcotics as well.) The machine puffs air from the sides of the booth to accelerate the plume into the portal’s overhead detector. The strategy moves passengers through in a speedy 14 seconds, which is why the Transportation Security Administration installed five of the machines in U.S. airports this summer.

Popular Science

14 seconds, and you're done. Everyone can pass through, so there is no racial profiling. Of course, we may have to raise taxes on the rich to pay for it, so it'll probably never happen

That's a great idea!!!! Of course if it is put into service the lawsuits will switch from illegal searches to that damn machine gave me cancer, heart damage, miscarriage,........etc

Those machines are a good idea for detecting drug residue, and I don't think a puff of air can give anyone heart disease or cancer. Keep in mind, this isn't an Xray machine or anything, it's basically a vacumn and an electronic 'nose' that analyzes chemical compounds.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. If you reek of explosives residue, that's cause for a search.

There are plenty of things we can do to increase our safety, without sacrificing our civil liberties.