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WAR: NYCLU Sues City to Stop Subway Searches

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posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 05:29 PM
The New York Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit to stop the random searches being conducted on New York's subway system. They contest that the searches are a violation of civil liberties, designed to deliver a false sense of security. Lawyers for the city contend that the random searches strike a balance between rights and safety.
Five city subway riders and a civil liberties group sued the city Thursday to stop random police inspections of bags in subways, calling the searches ineffective, unconstitutional and a publicity stunt that does not enhance safety.

"It's a needle-in-the-haystack approach to law enforcement," said Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, which filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Manhattan.

She and other members of the group who spoke at a news conference to announce the lawsuit said they want police to stop terrorists and improve safety, but not with useless measures designed to give subway riders a false sense of security.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

I am opposed to the searches, on the same grounds cited by the NYCLU. Unwarranted searches should not be allowed to take place in America, that goes against the principles of individual freedom and liberty, and reasonable expectation of privacy and security for your person and possessions.

That being said, I don't think the lawsuit will succeed. I think the country has been beaten down, humiliated, and raped by fear, and most people would give anything to protect themselves. They're even willing to persecute people who've done them no wrong. It's a shame, but it appears to be the way of the world now.

I hope this lawsuit succeeds, but the chances are slim to none. If I was still living in NY, I would protest the decision by taking cabs and walking. There's no excuse to treat law abiding citizens like criminals, none.

posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 06:32 PM

They still don't get it.

No one cares what's in your bag. No one wants to see your underwear, or your lunch, or your drugs, or whatever you carry.

The point is to put up an image. An image that says "When you board the subway you MAY get searched."

Why? Because then perhaps someone who was planning on bringing something on, won't.

It's called strategy. But hey if the NYCLU wishes to waste their members' money on this court case and defend people's rights to not be searched, well have a ball.

According to numerous polls the majority of New York's citizens don't have a problem with it because they understand why it's there.

The slight chance of being discovered before accomplishing their mission will deter a potential terrorist. They don't want to be found out and imprisoned for 50 years. They want to accomplish their mission and die.

They don't want to run that risk, and the "searches" deter them a bit.

The only part of this case that the NYCLU got right is the fact that it's a publicity stunt. It is intended to publicly tell people, if you try to bring something on the train that you're not supposed to, we might just find it before you get to use it, as opposed to before when we had no chance.


If I was still living in NY, I would protest the decision by taking cabs and walking. There's no excuse to treat law abiding citizens like criminals, none

That is what the people bringing this suit should do. Next thing perhaps they'll say that it should be illegal to treat fans like criminals by frisking them on the way into concerts.

You're always welcome to not be subject to a search by walking back out. No one is holding a gun to your head.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Djarums]

posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 06:53 PM

You're always welcome to not be subject to a search by walking back out. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Try backing out some time.
See how long it takes till you find a gun to your head.

Random bag searches are not going to stop anything, they'll just switch to bomb belts. Once they do, should we institute random strip searches? How about we force everyone to live in sealed concrete bunkers, sure it's unconstitutional and absurd, but it will "protect us from terrorists", no?

posted on Aug, 4 2005 @ 10:00 PM
I think the policy of searching like every 5th person, like what they're doing now, is ridiculous. Terrorists can count and are going to make sure they're not going to be searched. More likely, they'll just go to less used station to board the train (seemingly they only are doing searches at major entrances). A better tactic would be better policework and allow real searches based on risk profiling throughout the system.

But the ACLU is crazy, this is no more unconstitutional than searches at airports. More and more, they're becoming a terrorist organization themselves by undermining the entire fabric of our society and putting Americans at more risk by tying the hands of authorities that protect us.

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 12:31 AM

Try backing out some time.
See how long it takes till you find a gun to your head.

I don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

I was bringing up another example of bag checks (in this case i referred to concerts) and how those who do not consent to the check are not permitted into the arena. They're not beaten up or threatened, they're told to either open the bag or head out the door.

Nor did I at any point say the bag checking is effective at stopping an attack. My belief is that the appearance of people randomly searching bags is a significant deterrent to someone attempting to sneak something on the train.

[edit on 8-5-2005 by Djarums]

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 12:40 AM
Seems to me stopping searches is the same as to allow the bombers to bomb wherever and whenever and whoever they want, when they want. Suppose if the searches end people will at least leave their Children at home..


posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 12:40 AM
It looks like the powers-to-be would have to use the Problem-Reaction-Solution or scare tactic by manufacturing another tragic event close to home, in order to make NYCLU and others like it to conform...resistance is futile...

Since Fear is the mind/will killer, NYCLU or any other resistances groups will have not choice but to conform...

Let see what happened next...

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 12:48 AM
mwen, do you and your family take the subway?

I do, and my family does.

I would rather have the random spot checks than not have them.

You know... some of you people don't give us a clear read. If the NYPD didn't react this way, and something did happen on the subway you would yell that they ignored the warnings and the no-good politicians in the city allowed it to happen.

And if they do something, you complain that it's a fear mongering tactic intended to squash an irrelevant organization that has not done anything worthy of its founders in years. Make no mistake, these groups were started to do important work, and they accomplished plenty. What a pity they were hijacked by political operatives.

Go figure.

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:02 AM

Originally posted by Djarums
mwen, do you and your family take the subway?

Yes I do sometimes, and some of my family do take the subway to work...


I am not saying that I am against or for it, but one thing I want people to see here, is who benefit the most in all these tight securities thing...ever since 9/11, every tragic events seem to give certain group more power, while the other group inversly loses some of its power...

is the people or is those in power?

Who is gaining more control of our lives. We or They (our big brothers)?

and like I said before, If something does happened here at home, than you'll see my viewpoint...

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:05 AM
So all of you that think the searches are wrong....raise your hands

Now, if they stop trying to deter terrorist and a a bomber gets on board and blows whatever up, and one of YOUR family members gets killed by the bomb? Are you still going to raise your hand?

Yes, you will......but, this time it's going to be for...why didn't you do something to stop this...why, why, why!!

I for one, am willing to give up a fraction of my freedom for security, a lot of laws need to be rewritten anyways, and it's no beeter time then the present, to make sure our country never has to go through 9/11 again.

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:14 AM
Just scare tactic...

again who is benefiting from it all and gaining more power?

and how much freedom are you willing to give up for more securities...?


side note, before the 7/7 bombings, most british did not agree with this Iraq war and what Blair was doing...

Now, it's another story...the scare tactic worked...

[edit on 5-8-2005 by mwen]

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:35 AM
Scare tactics work sometimes, whatever it takes to keep them off our streets.
I'm willing to give up some more freedoms, up to the point to where I can't enjoy my daily life, which is what the terroist are try to do, disrupt our lives and makes us always be looking over our shoulder, and if more security measures are needed so I don't always have to do that, then so be it.

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:36 AM
It's not at all the same thing. Stopping the subway searches is restoring the civil rights of New Yorkers. Catching criminals is a whole different matter.

We KNOW the ways to stop the bombers, these ideas have been talked about for YEARS now, and nothing has been done. Secure the borders and ports, ferret out potential bombers through police work, you know, investiigation. If our government didn't act in such a shady fashion, cities could even do serious outreach to the muslim community. That's assuming there is a real threat, and it comes from that quarter. Problem is, nobody is sure what's going on, because there is a pervasive appearance of wrongdoing.

This is the way to stop terrorism, within the law, respecting the rights of citizens who are the targets of terrorists, maintaing the practices and principles that separate us from the terrorists. The people of New York should not have to worry about the good intentions of their government, they have more than enough to worry about already.

We KNOW what can be done to stop the flow of contraband, it doesn't get done.

Don't complain about the NYCLU, when what you should be complaining about is incompetent government failing to use common sense and your tax dollars wisely. They've passed the burden of action onto citizens, and now everybody is guilty because they can't catch the bad guys that are supposedly everywhere trying to kill us.

I would call it parody, were it funny, because this is not the way a Free society treats its citizens. In a free society, you can go about your business without being randomly searched, photgraphed, recorded, bullied by armed men, asked for your papers, detained, etc., etc.. In a free society everybody gets a fair trial. In a free society people aren't treated differently because of their skin color or their preferred style of dress.

It gets worse with every month, the security apparatus keeps growing like a cancer, and if you disagree, people say stuff to you like "Get out!" and "You're helping the terrorists win!" and "Stop being un-American!"

I think you know how useless the searches are, in terms of catching people who want to do something, but still you support them?

This is not helping. This is the appearance of helping. There are too many things our government knows they ought to be doing, that they're not, I mentioned some earlier but common sense should dictate them. (Ports, borders, visas, community outreach).

For example, if you're the State Department, don't grant Visa waivers to people who don't qualify. Simple, couldn't be more so, no?


Link 2

Link 3

Catching criminals and removing the civil liberties of innocent citizens are not the same.

We're on a speeding train right now, America. The way I see it there are three kinds of people aboard. The ones who don't notice, the ones who don't care, and the ones who can fly. The ones who both noticed, and cared, jumped off a little while ago. So, there were four types, and now there're three. When the train crashes, there will be two aboard, and one aloft, chuckling, with a bag full of money.

I'm the second sort, which type are you, if you don't mind me asking?

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:37 AM
Very good point of view.

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:44 AM

Scare tactics work sometimes

That's why terrorists use them, scare tactics that is, much to our collective chagrin.

Of course when the weapon is in our cabinet, we don't hesitate.

If people would just accept this, I could rest easily. If Americans still want to do what they're doing, after they realize what it really is, more power to them.

But let's, first and foremost, be honest with ourselves.

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 01:48 AM
Yah, I hear yah and of course respect your point of view.


posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 02:10 AM
Sorry for the rant.

Here's a picture in place of my next thousand words.

Is it Moscow or Manhattan? If it weren't for the fuzzy hats you'd have no idea.

Everyone say it with me now! "Where are your papers citizen?" Russian uniforms notwithstanding, say it with a crisp Norh-German accent, it's funnier that way. "Where are your papers citizen?!"

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 02:11 AM

Originally posted by mwen
It looks like the powers-to-be would have to use the Problem-Reaction-Solution or scare tactic by manufacturing another tragic event close to home, in order to make NYCLU and others like it to conform...resistance is futile...

Hell why not, thats how that passed PA I and PA II..

PA I right after 9/11
PA II While watching the 7/7 attacks on TV..

You people just dont get it do you.. The more you fall for this crap, the easier it will be to screw everyone in the end.

Its funny how some Jews who were in the consintration camps claim to be in 1939 germany or whatever now..

Hell its isnt even them, its alot of people saying that..

I think the next attack will be here in america, Nuke perhaps.

posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 02:19 AM
For my personal record - what the hell are you saying? Seems extreme but suppose you can set my mind at ease please?


posted on Aug, 5 2005 @ 02:29 AM
Um, I think comparing an occasional bag search to 1939 Germany is a little overboard. Nor have i EVER heard anyone who was in a concentration camp say anything like that.

But ok...

And then, just when I thought I understand your point at least, you go and say you do believe there will be another attack in the USA.

If you believe that there will be one, how can you have a problem with people wanting to try and avoid it?

It's a show. A random check of a few people an hour. Not an x-ray or full cavity search.

If the show of a search keeps a bad package off the subways some of us use every day, why the heck is that a bad thing?

EDIT: On a personal note, I have not yet had a bag searched.

If anyone would like... my bag contains a laptop, my lunch, an ipod, an umbrella and bottle of Poland Spring water.

Search it, take a picture. I don't care.

[edit on 8-5-2005 by Djarums]

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