The world is waiting

Yes, I agree. The whole world is watching and waiting, wondering if we're ever going to get our gov't back under control. People are too scared to do anything. We all know what happens to us if we defy the gov't. Unless a majority of Americans start a civil war, your guns are worthless. I mean, no one wants to throw away the rest of their lives for something as trivial as the freedom of everyone in our country. It's sickening, isn't it? Rest assured, if the sh*t finally does hit the fan, I'll be right there to fight. Until then, any attempt to do anything will just turn you into an Oswald, McVeigh, or worse, a Waco community. You'll be slandered and discredited as some angry looney, who's made to look like he's lost the plot. It's what they do. Frankly, I'm ashamed to call myself an American these days. I claim no association except my residence here.

[Edited on 27-8-2003 by Satyr]

If you don't vote, then a void is in place and it will be filled by a republican. Ok, maybe Dems aren't the best there is but, its the best thing going compared to the disaster we have now.

I vote, i vote every election. I simply vote third party, or write in candidate. I refuse to vote for Demcrat or republican, simply because 90% of my fellow Americans are drooling retards who cant get thier cowbrains out of the two party stranglehold.

They overlook third party cadidtates, because third partys aint got the cash to get thier faces on TV, where most Americans get thier history, political, and moral lessons. Thus, in thier minds, if a candidate is not on TV, he must not exist or be any good. Thus, the mentality of the retard masses.

The Clinton years were not good. You place too much trust in charts and graphs. Charts and graphs dont pain pictures of reality.

The majority of new jobs created during the Clinton years were low paying service jobs, from the boom in small buisness. They were taken from once higher paying good jobs. So, you had people who worked, true. people who worked for # wages, little benefits. Terrible really. the only people who did well in the 90's were computer geeks, or people with money to invest. Blue collar workers declined, thier jobs, thanks to Clinton and NAFTA, getting shipped to Mexico.

So, again, the inaccuracy of charts and graphs, silly things that silly people use to paint a picture of reality they want to have. Reality is:

During the 90's, I saw a massive increase in the price of housing. I also saw a massive increase in personal debt. Another reason the economy did so well during the Clinton years: credit was being handed out like candy, and people were overspending, charging this an that on credit cards, because credit was so easy to get,. Thus, the wealth, the increased sales, consumer confidence, blah blah blah.

The economy began its decline in 99, during Clintons watch. This house of cards and economy based on debt slowly began to crumble. The dot coms began crashing.

And it lingers into the Bush years. Bush is doing little to help the economy, just maiing it worse with his stupid wars and crap, plus his hommies in Enron and other oil pimps gouging and ,manipulating energy markets.

No, you will it as likely for me to vote for Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, or Santa Claus as you will for another friggin democrat.

This e;lection, i shall continue to vote third party, mainly Libertarian, since they are the thid largets party, but if another candiate from another party ctaches my eye, I will vote for them.

Never will i vote for Illuminati approved candidates, whether they be elephants or donkeys.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

If you don't vote, then a void is in place and it will be filled by a republican. Ok, maybe Dems aren't the best there is but, its the best thing going compared to the disaster we have now.

I vote, i vote every election. I simply vote third party, or write in candidate. I refuse to vote for Demcrat or republican, simply because 90% of my fellow Americans are drooling retards who cant get thier cowbrains out of the two party stranglehold.

They overlook third party cadidtates, because third partys aint got the cash to get thier faces on TV, where most Americans get thier history, political, and moral lessons. Thus, in thier minds, if a candidate is not on TV, he must not exist or be any good. Thus, the mentality of the retard masses.

The Clinton years were not good. You place too much trust in charts and graphs. Charts and graphs dont pain pictures of reality.

The majority of new jobs created during the Clinton years were low paying service jobs, from the boom in small buisness. They were taken from once higher paying good jobs. So, you had people who worked, true. people who worked for # wages, little benefits. Terrible really. the only people who did well in the 90's were computer geeks, or people with money to invest. Blue collar workers declined, thier jobs, thanks to Clinton and NAFTA, getting shipped to Mexico.

So, again, the inaccuracy of charts and graphs, silly things that silly people use to paint a picture of reality they want to have. Reality is:

During the 90's, I saw a massive increase in the price of housing. I also saw a massive increase in personal debt. Another reason the economy did so well during the Clinton years: credit was being handed out like candy, and people were overspending, charging this an that on credit cards, because credit was so easy to get,. Thus, the wealth, the increased sales, consumer confidence, blah blah blah.

The economy began its decline in 99, during Clintons watch. This house of cards and economy based on debt slowly began to crumble. The dot coms began crashing.

And it lingers into the Bush years. Bush is doing little to help the economy, just maiing it worse with his stupid wars and crap, plus his hommies in Enron and other oil pimps gouging and ,manipulating energy markets.

No, you will it as likely for me to vote for Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, or Santa Claus as you will for another friggin democrat.

This e;lection, i shall continue to vote third party, mainly Libertarian, since they are the thid largets party, but if another candiate from another party ctaches my eye, I will vote for them.

Never will i vote for Illuminati approved candidates, whether they be elephants or donkeys.

Not to get sued for copyright infringement, but that was some Elf'n fresh Bullshyte!
Look, I'm a Centrist and one of the biggest advocates of seeing the way we vote in this country reformed and I would cheer the death of the two party system.
Let's set it straight: I am one of those small business owners who prospered, after starting my practice in 1993, under Clintons policies. There was no see saw effect on job growth, it was across the board. what you are trying to pass off with a Right Wing sound byte about NAFTA is about 10% true - we went through a period of rapid modernization in the US and around the world - just because you are 'blue collar' does not mean that job skill education is not a core requirement to your financial well being. Ask the mechanic who works on my cars. Ask the carpenter who built my house.
Housing shot up, but so did personal wealth in all economic strata. Those shyte wages you're talking about accounted for the most people climbing above the poverty line and the most people coming off of welfare.
During Clintons presidency: 3000% GP growth for my practice over year 1. Bush's policies screw the hell out of small business; they are very pro business....but only BIG BUSINESS.
The economy started to plateau in '99, after successive years of double digit growth ! Even a great orgasm comes to an end, you know?
The recession started 3/2001, don't forget that. It's a trifecta variable that Dim Son bragged about as being a pre-cursor to his smash & dash economic policy.
The people who can realistically bring about a viable third party...are too old. Jim Jefford & John McCain would get my vote if they broke out and ran for president. It'll be a helluva ticket.
But realize this - vote for someone that won't kill the country (Bush) until we can get that third or fourth option up and viable. Else, you risk extending the misery.

On the credit card thing, you are spot on: keeping up with the Jones became the American past time, and debt fueled that. But look back to the deregualtion/abolishment of many of the safeguards ......Newt Gingrich, remember that name? The whoring to special interests that funded that Congress is what ushered in the 24% credit card interest rate and all those fine print revisions on card statements.

[Edited on 27-8-2003 by Bout Time]

bouttime: i'm with you on most of what you said. but as a small business owner myself, I'm looking at the Section 179 allowances for this year and saying to myself....my god, buy everything in sight. does this mean bush gets my vote, not by a LONG shot. point is, there are some really enticing incentives for small business owners in the new tax language.

Bush isn't letting down the US people. It may be hard to see the ends of which the means have brought.

But I see a genius at work in the American presidency.

He is establishing power points,

Those who play strategic games and know of strategics will see that a super power will first establish themselves politically and then economically and and then will invade not by means of militarily but by culture and society,

America is the capital of the world, the world is Americas colonies, just becuase its not official doesn't mean it does not exist.

Any who resist to the present gov't will be dealt with sevearly.

What we are all seeing right now is Alexander the Great moving through Persia.

Mixed in with the final power movement that the Roman Empire had, its that as of right now the American Empire is either heading in one of two directions,

ONE - Establishing the final power struggle, which will give the US a window for more power

TWO - America is eroding becuase it can no longer expand.

You are a sick expansionist. I'm at a loss for words to describe the blindness I've just seen above. I guess anyone with that sort of mentality would think Bush is a genius....and also Hitler.

[Edited on 27-8-2003 by Satyr]

Bout time,

The carpenter who built your house was probably an Illegal immigrant. Thats about most of what we see working construction jobs around here, undocumented workers. Some economic boost that is for the average American. Well, unless you own the company building the houses. Then youre makin a killing by cutting overhead and paying your illegal slaves half wages.

Ecoonomic growth across the board? I dont think so, Manufacturing dropped, sent overseas, and you call that "modernizing"? Nothing modern about an economy based on service and debt, an economy thats exporting less because it has to import more. Thats called a trade defecit. Clinton was a big fan of free trade, he came to seattle during the WTO riots to express his support for free trade.

Small business owners did prosper. Not everyone is a small business owner. My civilian life has been spent in the industiral/manufactuing sector, which continues to decline. No prosperoty there.

I never got above the poverty level under the clintons years. Hell, things didnt start to get good until later, only for a brief time. Factory layoffs. Look at Boeing. Big Business maybe Bush's buddy, but Bug Business employes a hell of alot more people than little Biz. Boeing leaving Seattle because a certain democratic govornor wasnt being too friendly towards Boeing and giving them incentives to stay here has cost the region thousands of jobs, and give our state the third highest unemployment rate in the country. Thanks, commiecrats. Its near impossible finding any friggin work here now.

We already know the evil of the right wing, because were living under the right wing regime right now. So, people have the dangerous tendancies to wax nostaligic about the Clinton years. i sure aint one of em, they werent any better than the current regime. NAFTA still continues to siphon off jobs and manufacturing from the US. More and more programming jobs are going over seas. So much for modernization.

I remeber Newt Gingrich. despite his obviously Fascist and right wing Christian leanings during the Clinton years, he was about one of the Few in congress who did anything about the ailing military.

The other side of the Clinton years: the mental rape and neutering of our military, not to mention massive cuts to the budget, replacing many good skilled soldiers with tech. And the civilian jobs.

Thank you, republiklansmen and commiecrats. Please keep #ing the good ol USA in the rear, and skip the vaseline.

Get on board the winning ticket, Howard Dean for Prez in 2004. Check his website and his use of the internet to create a grassroots groundswell, congealing the disenfranchised and those of us disgusted by the meager options for 2004.

Mr. Dean is a solid candidate with a real platform, both domestic & foriegn. He is a progressive thinker with real plans not war plans. He is the one candidate that can pull together all of those folks who undid the Gore campaign last time.

The Greens and the Independants are strongly considering backing Dr.Dean for his run in 2004, which would represent a first for a Democratic candidate.
A straight talker who won't try to BS America, he does not pander to the press or anyone else.

> health coverage reform, no one left behind
> real fiscal responsibility, not endenturing our future
> a domestic agenda that is both pro-business & pro-employee
> a foriegn policy that has America working with the world not fighting it!!

Check out his website:
www.deanforamerica.com...

Originally posted by Satyr
Yes, I agree. The whole world is watching and waiting, wondering if we're ever going to get our gov't back under control. People are too scared to do anything. We all know what happens to us if we defy the gov't. Unless a majority of Americans start a civil war, your guns are worthless. I mean, no one wants to throw away the rest of their lives for something as trivial as the freedom of everyone in our country. It's sickening, isn't it? Rest assured, if the sh*t finally does hit the fan, I'll be right there to fight. Until then, any attempt to do anything will just turn you into an Oswald, McVeigh, or worse, a Waco community. You'll be slandered and discredited as some angry looney, who's made to look like he's lost the plot. It's what they do. Frankly, I'm ashamed to call myself an American these days. I claim no association except my residence here.

[Edited on 27-8-2003 by Satyr]

hear hear...

Harrier:

Where the hell you been? These republicans and "in the closet" republicans have been trying to take me down anyway they can. I was lucky to get this thread up.

Yes, I will be voting for Dean. I see on C-span at the debates. What the Dems don't understand which I and apparently Dean understands all too well is that Bush and the republicans are basically bullies. You stand up to a bully and you break him down. Just use truth which is: Bush, your presidency has brought misery and sh*t to the entire planet since you've been here. Time for you to go back to what you know, Gameboy at the Crawford Ranch.

[Edited on 28-8-2003 by Colonel]

Skadi: Maybe Clinotn should have included labor laws in the NAFTA treaty. I think he made a mistake there. If he did, I don't think so many manufacturing jobs would have left the US.

And on cutting the military. How much does the military need? I think its hal;f the US budget (I may be wrong). How much is enough? How many bombs do we need? How many Stealth fighters? How many? All the money that defense ever gets goes some defense contractor and not to the fighting man or for his livelihood.

Bush increased defense spending ridiculously---half a trillion dollars, I think. Who got paid off? Not the soldier sweating and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lookheed did. Boeing did. Booz Allen did. SAIC did. They all did. It never helps the fighting man. In fact, under Bush, 25 billion got cut from Veterans Benefits with a little note not to tell the soldiers of their med beneifts if they are available.

That's how much Action hero Bush cares.

I figure CLinton just cut defense spending to stop lining the pockets of defense contractors. That's all.

Satyr

No offence but it's you that is living in denial,

WE live in the world I just described, It makes you sick becuase you don't like the way I just discribed it.

No offence but your in the very middle of this false reality

IN GERMANY THEY FIRST CAME FOR THE COMMUNISTS AND I DIDN'T SPEAK UP BECAUSE
I WASN'T A COMMUNIST. THEN THEY CAME FOR THE JEWS, AND I DIDN'T SPEAK UP
BECAUSE I WASN'T A JEW. THEN THEY CAME FOR THE TRADE UNIONISTS, AND I
DIDN'T SPEAK UP BECAUSE I WASN'T A TRADE UNIONIST. THEN THEY CAME FOR THE
CATHOLICS, AND I DIDN'T SPEAK UP BECAUSE I WAS A PROTESTANT. THEN THEY CAME
FOR ME -- AND BY THAT TIME NO ONE WAS LEFT TO SPEAK UP.
-- PASTOR MARTIN NIEMOLLER

Live the world you think you live in, reap the consequences of your blind eyes.

You will only know your fears once they are in front of you.

If you think I'm a sick expansionalist, then truely you haven't open your eyes.

Sure, I see it happening, but that doesn't mean it's right. You sound like you're actually supporting world domination.

Im a strategist at heart, I know of stragic plan when I see one.

The one you see before you is excellent in many ways, using public fears to gain support while expanding the economy and military and Land mass to many other areas.

As for your last question, no I don't support it because the US people wont gain from it. But give credit where credit is due.

But a good plan is a good plan,

It depends on where you stand as a person.

If the US would not do what it is doing right now then the next generation would suffer from it. We don't live long enough to reap our own mistakes.

No offence on your point of view, but we live in a Darwanistic world.

Alexander, Lincoln, British Kings, Napolean, Hitler, Musolini, Caesar, Bush, Blair, Stalin - All heros to someone at somepoint.

Every where you look Darwanism is in place.

I Love the US but dislike the gov't

Basically the old story of the man who eats his hamburger but doesn't want to see the cow being killed.

Americans like to reap the benefits of being an American but never approve of what its country does.

People may complain about expansionalism, but if the US didn't expand, and kill of many of Native Americans, trust me, US would not be the superpower you see today.

Everything you see today is by means of what people consider mean spirited.

Kukla: I hear you, it's great....but doesn't it need Congress to survive past 2004? Also, unless you're dropping some large change, it's the only one we're getting. How's about FICA/Medicare?

FoxStriker: Bush is Alexander the Great? To see such sycophancy: my mind recoils in horror, and my heart sinks in sadness. The plan you admire? Been there done that, circa late 1800's early 1900's. The 'plan' of conquest through non-military means had been going swimmingly for the last 30+ years.
America is eroding because of centralization of capitalism ( fascism) by monolithic corporations, who conduct 'war' by proxy for the US. No competition at their backs, and none for others to usher innovation...spells erosion.

ELF: NAFTA, while well intentioned, failed to envoke & enforce OSHA standards for relocated factories - it would have equalized much and dissuaded other from moving. I'm very pro-Union and pro blue collar because of my upbringing. But please don't be offended - if you chose not to take away from your military service neither a bankable skill nor took advantage of academics - then relying upon being a Widget Selector in a factory assembly line as your livelihood is all on you. Your experience is yours, not a standard for the era.
Military spending: Hasn't been a president in my life time that has taken the person as the centerpiece....it's all about everything but. Clinton was better than the others, though.
I have no problem with tech replacing headcount, why would you? The only piece of machinery I ever mourned was when my brother totaled my vintage 240 Z. I do have a problem with Bush Admin. personnel buying outdated weaponry designed for battling the Reds on the Russian Steppes, while gutting hazard pay and vet benefits.
Mental Rape of the military!? Que? Help me with that one.

Colonel:

Clinton did the same thing republiklansmen do: he spent more money on tech, and cut people from the military. We dont need machines, war is PEOPLE. Our military has been dumbed down, depending more and more on these stupid gadgets the defense department has fallen in love with. Making them less efficent for fighting real warfare. Instead of trainign soldiers on real fireing ranges, target practice was reduced instead to using computer simulations. Comps dont cut it in real life. Techno gadgets break down in real field conditions. I remeber in Saudi our monitoring computers broke down and froze up the whole system, and new soldiers had no clue on how to monitor and check for faults without them. Dangerous!

That answers your question, bout time. You may not mourn the loss of a machine, but remeber that dependance on this tech is getting alot of people killed. they are dumbing down the troops, making them more and more dependant on these gadgets and computers then they are on thier own minds and senses.

As for how he raped the military metally? We spent more time in "PC" class than we did actually training for warfare and combat. We had very few IFF classes (Idenification Friend or Foe, no wonder we blasted more Brits to dust in the start of the war than the Iraqis did). We were reciving countless classes on "offensive language and jokes" basically, it can become criminal for soldiers to swear and tell dirty jokes if someone hears you, sexual harrassment briefings, ect ect ect. Basically, we spent more time being eductated on how to be "PC" then we were being taught the things we needed to know to be efficent. We were learning to be a kinder, gentler, more politically correct army. We were not being taugh enough how to defend our site, how to manage supply lines better, how to differentiate between friends and enemy, the laws of warfare, how to handle ambushes, field first aid, ect. Thanks to Military hating Clinton, who wouldnt even salute his marine guards. You wonder why Private Lynch's unit got smashed so readily? thats why: not enough time and training spent on teaching them how to handle ambushes, rifle skills, land navigation and such.

I didnt depend on industiral jobs for the rest of my life, bout time, I simply needed them to get a little training, money, ect to move on. But forget about what its doing to the american blue collar worker, lets look at the national economy: less factory production, more moved overseas. less exports for America. More dependance on foreign imports. Not good. Can we say, defecit, debt, slavery? But i would have liked to have explored the option of working in a factory for life, working my way up to say supervisor or production manager. Thats slowly becoming a thing of the past.

Ill agree the repliklansmen are doing a #ty job with the military too. The spend even more on tech and crap, and less time on really reshapoing our soldiers and spending the money where it counts, on the troops and making them capable of functions whether or not the GPS or NVGs are working. the Republiklansmen simply sepnd the money on more big planes and tech, to reward thier cooperate buddies.

I will say it again: dems and reps are both criminal. Clinton was just one link in a long line of # leaders ruining the country.

Originally posted by FoxStriker
Im a strategist at heart, I know of stragic plan when I see one.

The one you see before you is excellent in many ways, using public fears to gain support while expanding the economy and military and Land mass to many other areas.

Oh yeah, that's what I look for in a tyrant. There's a difference between strategy and outright deceit. Some people gain power without lies and deception...without hurting others, or using them as disposable pawns. You obviously don't mind being one of those pawns.

I Love the US but dislike the gov't

And you declare Bush a genius? You're very sick and confused. Don't talk to me anymore, please. We'll never see eye to eye because you're one of those people I hope evolution will eliminate.

I would be the person that would control the world my fellow peasant.

AS for Bush being a genius, it might not be him that is a genius but the puppeter.

And you declare Bush a genius? You're very sick and confused. Don't talk to me anymore, please. We'll never see eye to eye because you're one of those people I hope evolution will eliminate.

Umm, no offence or anything but you will be the one being left out.

Get this straight, in this world morals don't matter until you lie.

Oh yeah, that's what I look for in a tyrant. There's a difference between strategy and outright deceit. Some people gain power without lies and deception...without hurting others, or using them as disposable pawns. You obviously don't mind being one of those pawns.

Did you even see what I put,

give credit where credit is due, don't be pissed becuase you got the bad side of a one-sided deal.

Hmm, to simply put it, I would like to see you stand up to Bush and say what you think. I will say this as simply as I can put it.

YOU are blinder than those that think the world is based on morals.

Its based on money and power, and you live in this world yet complain about being part of the machine, you are an average hypocrite.

Don't bitch, but do something about it, other than just voting every 2 or 4 years.

FoxStriker: Bush is Alexander the Great? To see such sycophancy: my mind recoils in horror, and my heart sinks in sadness. The plan you admire? Been there done that, circa late 1800's early 1900's. The 'plan' of conquest through non-military means had been going swimmingly for the last 30+ years.

This should answer the question.

As for your last question, no I don't support it because the US people wont gain from it. But give credit where credit is due.

And yes, I do know that this has been happening for years, its not anything new.

America is eroding because of centralization of capitalism ( fascism) by monolithic corporations, who conduct 'war' by proxy for the US. No competition at their backs, and none for others to usher innovation...spells erosion.

Hmm, only time will tell my friend, can't really say which way its going, but I'm going for opposite, I think the world is a technological point were we can expand.