Concerned about joining

Um, I really hope I didn't come across like some kind of jerk.

Here's what I was trying to ask:

The OTO claims some sort of Masonic heritage and/or affiliation. I want to join the Freemasons, but if they do that creepy OTO stuff I want nothing to do with them.

And all of you told me they are not affiliated. Thank you.

Are you all putting me on some sort of Global Ignore? What's that about? Or am I misreading you?

Originally posted by Cug


FYI, Crowley was not the orginal auther of the O.T.O. rituals, The founder of the O.T.O. Theodor Ruess was.

Yes, but he overhauled them. My understanding is that Ruess used the original Scottish Rite Degreesm but Crowley changed them.

Time capsule, for an instant or eternity

This now qualifies as a long topic, and the originator of the thread is no longer visible at this time.

Originally posted by wiggy

Originally posted by Cug


FYI, Crowley was not the orginal auther of the O.T.O. rituals, The founder of the O.T.O. Theodor Ruess was.

Yes, but he overhauled them. My understanding is that Ruess used the original Scottish Rite Degreesm but Crowley changed them.

Looks like I missread your post and we are both saying the same thing

but just for the record...

Russ had a charter for the Memphis, Mizraim, and the Cerneau Rites the first O.T.O. rituals were a mixture of them. What Crowley did was start to remove the masonry bits and replaced them with Thelemic bits.

He's here, he's gone, he's visible, he's invisible... What gives?

I thought it odd that the GI would be applied so early in someone's ATS career, unless of course they were spamming or posting obscene or otherwise disparaging stuff... Am I missing something?

For the record, I can see your posts now, trinitrotoluene.

Rest assured, Freemasonry in no way recognizes OTO. That being said, there are some Masons who are also members of the OTO, but no affiliation between the two groups.

I will be petitioning my local Blue Lodge soon, and I plan on doing both York and Scottish Rites as well, but I'm not in a rush. I looked into the OTO but ultimately decided it's just not for me.


[edit on 8/1/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by trinitrotoluene
I know where the local masonic temple is. It's not just a Blue Lodge - it is a Scottish Rite meeting house. If I were to join freemasonry, I would want to go all the way. I am extremely impressed with the Craft's teachings of tolerance, peace, and goodwill.

Excellent! I look forward in the future to greet you not only as friend, but as Brother!

I have read all of the rites of the Ordo Templari Orientis. I will not disclose where I received the information, but I will say I was disgusted with it. Also, I am convinced that what I read is truly an authentic, though stolen, documentation of rites of the OTO.

Back in the '70's, Francis King, a former O.T.O. member, published their rituals in a book called "The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O." It is still in print, and is a popular book with occultists. The rituals have been revised since then, but I've been told by several people that the basics are the same.

The "science" of the homunculus, the copulation with goddess statues - all of it makes me sick. I was also upset to read that (early on!) you must sign a declaration that states "there is no God but man," and that the OTO teaches that the vicarious atonement of Christ is a lie. The OTO also makes you declare that you pretty much relinquish all association with any religion other that the Ordo's harmic balance of every religion in the world. I refuse to accept the God Baphimet.

It should be remembered that O.T.O. is a Thelemic religious organization (Thelema is the name of the religion founded by their prophet, the English mystic Aleister Crowley). This makes the O.T.O. unlike Freemasonry in that it is sectarian, and all members adhere to certain religious principles. Its members are already followers of Crowley before they join O.T.O.

Furthermore, in O.T.O., Baphomet is not a god. "Baphomet" was simply Crowley's sacramental name in the Order.

Anyway, my beef is simply with the OTO, NOT with Freemasonry. Interestingly enough, the OTO meets in a Lodge of Perfection, as do the first few degrees of the Scottish Rite. The OTO also bestows equivalent Scottish Rite degrees as one advances through the Ordo, and members are encouraged to study Freemason literature.

Most of the degrees and even the structure of the O.T.O. was adopted from what is known as the Cernaeu Rite, which was in turn a plagiarized version of the Scottish Rite. Basically, the O.T.O. rituals above the III° are rituals from the Cerneau Rite which have been revised to teach Thelemic (instead of Masonic) philosophy.

The biggest thing that has kept me from joining the Freemasons is that the Ordo Templari Orientis announces during its final three degrees is that it's great secret, AS WELL AS THE GREATE SECRET OF FREEMASONRY, is that the Great Architect of the Universe is the Sun (literally), and the Great Architect of the Universe of Man is the Phallus. If you don't know what a phallus is, go look it up - I won't get into that here. Anyway, the OTO teaches that the end goal of freemasonry is phallus worship. This is true - the use of male secretions is quite prevalent in the later ritual worship of the Ordo.

Crowley seems to have been convinced that this was the case, i.e., that the so-called ultimate secret of Masonry was identical to the sex magick formula of O.T.O. But in his writings, Crowley often shows a good deal of ignorance when it comes to Masonry. This is not to say that Crowley's writings are worthless; indeed, he was an expert in the field of Qabalah and Yoga. This is only to say that although he knew a lot about somethings, he didn't know everything, and his opinions and beliefs concerning Freemasonry were often wrong.

My point: In my research of Freemasonry, I found NONE of this kind of stuff. However, the Ordo Templari Orientis, another society that bestows Freemason degrees and claims to teach Freemason principles seems off the deep end! I need to know if Freemasonry REALLY teaches this kind of stuff. If you are a Master Mason, you will not know any of this, because in the ritual book of the OTO, the author says that if he told someone this stuff at only a Master Mason level, they would run away from the Craft forever.

Freemasonry's teachings are quite different from that of the O.T.O. I personally have nothing against O.T.O., and if its members want to subscribe to Crowley's version of occult practice, it is their right to do so. However, O.T.O. and Masonry, although they sometimes look similar on the surface, are two extremely different things.

Someone please let me know if ANY of these practices that I have mentioned are in ANY way a part of Freemasonry. I also need to know if Freemasonry is sympathetic towards the OTO, or if they accept the Freemason degrees bestowed by the OTO. If Freemasonry practices these things, or is associated with them, or knows about them and continues in sympathy towards the OTO, or if Freemasonry accepts degrees bestowed by the OTO, I will not join the Freemasons. I acknowledge that if people want to get into that kind of stuff it is their human right, but I choose to avoid that kind of stuff like the plague.

Masonry does not recognize O.T.O. in any way. Masonry itself is not sympathetic to O.T.O., nor is Masonry opposed to it. It's simply another organization that has nothing to do with regular Masonry.

P.S. During the instruction of the Seventh, Eight and Ninth Degrees of the OTO, it says "But be ye also assured that by these practices preliminary ye shall be led to Godliness, and to the Reward and Favour of the All-One; and ye do fit yourselves for that further advancement, ye make yourselves
worthy candidates for the Secret Areopagus of the Illuminati, wherein is much made light that is yet dark to you."

The Illuminati, eh? I just thought I'd throw that one in, too.

The O.T.O.'s VIII° is called "Epopt of the Illuminati". There is also a side administrative degree appendant to the VIII° which is called "Pontiff of the Illuminati."

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Back in the '70's, Francis King, a former O.T.O. member, published their rituals in a book called "The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O." It is still in print, and is a popular book with occultists. The rituals have been revised since then, but I've been told by several people that the basics are the same.

The book has not been in print for quite some time (like 20+ years). but pdf's show up on the web from time to time.

This is an interesting article about the history of the OTO: users.erols.com...

May or may not be accurate, I am not sure.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Back in the '70's, Francis King, a former O.T.O. member, published their rituals in a book called "The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O." It is still in print, and is a popular book with occultists. The rituals have been revised since then, but I've been told by several people that the basics are the same.

The book has not been in print for quite some time (like 20+ years). but pdf's show up on the web from time to time.

Is this the same book that, allegedly, OTO members buy up like crazy in order so that nobody else will be able to get their hands on it? I heard that somewhere...

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Is this the same book that, allegedly, OTO members buy up like crazy in order so that nobody else will be able to get their hands on it? I heard that somewhere...

Same book, but it would be hard to get a copy in any event. it was published in 72-73 before the latest occult revival happened in the 80-90's so it wasn't made in great numbers. And it can't be printed anymore because the rituals belong to the O.T.O. (I'm not sure if they are trademarked or copyrighted)

I "think" the official line on the book is if an O.T.O. member sees the book for sale it is recommended that they buy it if they are able. (It's expensive, Weiser Antiquarian Books had a copy going for $425)

The pdf's that show up on the web don't last for long either.

Originally posted by Cug

The book has not been in print for quite some time (like 20+ years). but pdf's show up on the web from time to time.

Sorry, my bad. My own copy is electronic, wish I had the actual book now, didn't realize they were so rare.

Originally posted by trinitrotoluene
No no no, don't get me wrong. I was asking if any of the Ordo Templari Orientis rituals were included in Freemason traditions. If I have not read official documentation from an organization, I will not accuse them of any type of practise. If I have concerns, but do not have knowledge of the truth, I will ask questions, as I did today.

Thanks everyone for your openness.

EDITED SECTION: DOH! I see where I got ahead of myself in my first thread! I meant to say earlier that phallus worship truly is a part of OTO worship, but I can see that I was still typing about freemasonry at the same time. I did not mean to imply this at all. I meant that it is true that the OTO is involved in this.

My apologies to all freemasons.

[edit on 1-8-2005 by trinitrotoluene]

OTO is not even a "little bit" a part of Freemasonry, that some group attempt to take a part of the Ritual Work and make it fit their own Society does not make them affiliated in any way, there is nothing in Freemasonry that would attempt to make you not to believe in your religion and in fact it is necessary for you to believe in God to become a Freemason.