Concerned about joining

I know where the local masonic temple is. It's not just a Blue Lodge - it is a Scottish Rite meeting house. If I were to join freemasonry, I would want to go all the way. I am extremely impressed with the Craft's teachings of tolerance, peace, and goodwill.

However, I have some genuine concerns. I don't want to give away too much information, but I feel that I should be open with what I have seen. I do not wish to offend ANYONE with my words - I will not be rude, but I will express my immediate reactions and feelings to what I have read. I wish to hear from existing/previous members of the Scottish Rite and hopefully members of the Ordo Templari Orientis in regards to what I have to say. Please feel free to use the same honesty and openness that I use.

I have read all of the rites of the Ordo Templari Orientis. I will not disclose where I received the information, but I will say I was disgusted with it. Also, I am convinced that what I read is truly an authentic, though stolen, documentation of rites of the OTO.

The "science" of the homunculus, the copulation with goddess statues - all of it makes me sick. I was also upset to read that (early on!) you must sign a declaration that states "there is no God but man," and that the OTO teaches that the vicarious atonement of Christ is a lie. The OTO also makes you declare that you pretty much relinquish all association with any religion other that the Ordo's harmic balance of every religion in the world. I refuse to accept the God Baphimet.

Anyway, my beef is simply with the OTO, NOT with Freemasonry. Interestingly enough, the OTO meets in a Lodge of Perfection, as do the first few degrees of the Scottish Rite. The OTO also bestows equivalent Scottish Rite degrees as one advances through the Ordo, and members are encouraged to study Freemason literature.

The biggest thing that has kept me from joining the Freemasons is that the Ordo Templari Orientis announces during its final three degrees is that it's great secret, AS WELL AS THE GREATE SECRET OF FREEMASONRY, is that the Great Architect of the Universe is the Sun (literally), and the Great Architect of the Universe of Man is the Phallus. If you don't know what a phallus is, go look it up - I won't get into that here. Anyway, the OTO teaches that the end goal of freemasonry is phallus worship. This is true - the use of male secretions is quite prevalent in the later ritual worship of the Ordo.

My point: In my research of Freemasonry, I found NONE of this kind of stuff. However, the Ordo Templari Orientis, another society that bestows Freemason degrees and claims to teach Freemason principles seems off the deep end! I need to know if Freemasonry REALLY teaches this kind of stuff. If you are a Master Mason, you will not know any of this, because in the ritual book of the OTO, the author says that if he told someone this stuff at only a Master Mason level, they would run away from the Craft forever.

Someone please let me know if ANY of these practices that I have mentioned are in ANY way a part of Freemasonry. I also need to know if Freemasonry is sympathetic towards the OTO, or if they accept the Freemason degrees bestowed by the OTO. If Freemasonry practices these things, or is associated with them, or knows about them and continues in sympathy towards the OTO, or if Freemasonry accepts degrees bestowed by the OTO, I will not join the Freemasons. I acknowledge that if people want to get into that kind of stuff it is their human right, but I choose to avoid that kind of stuff like the plague.

P.S. During the instruction of the Seventh, Eight and Ninth Degrees of the OTO, it says "But be ye also assured that by these practices preliminary ye shall be led to Godliness, and to the Reward and Favour of the All-One; and ye do fit yourselves for that further advancement, ye make yourselves
worthy candidates for the Secret Areopagus of the Illuminati, wherein is much made light that is yet dark to you."

The Illuminati, eh? I just thought I'd throw that one in, too.

OTO is not recognized by the Scotish Rite. Alister Crowley based some of the OTO degrees off of Scotish Rite Degrees.

OTO is not recognised by the United Grand Lodge of England, nor most Grand Lodges in the United States.

You probaly read some of the Rites of Memphis and Mizraim (34-95th degrees)

This has most of the history of OTO.
oto-usa.org...

I support Fremasonry, but do not support OTO, the Rites of Mizraim, or anything butchred by Crowley.

Thank you for a prompt reply. It seems I need to research A.Crowley some more.

If there are any mid- to high-level freemasons that surf these threads, please feel free to give your thoughts as well.

While Crowley might have taken some rituals from the Scottish Rite, OTO is in no way affiliated with Free Masonry, Scottish Rite, York Rite, or any York appendant bodies.

OTO must be a dangerous group to have a consent form like this- here is a small protion of it- you would think you were going to be kick boxing in Hong Kong or something.

I understand that every attempt is made to minimize the existing risks that are inherent in the nature of some of the activities
involved through the use of proper equipment, safe facilities and sound safety practices. However, I also understand that these
risks cannot be eliminated completely.
I realize that as a participant in the initiation ceremonies and other activities of Ordo Templi Orientis I could possibly incur
bodily injuries. Due to the nature of these activities, injuries may be minor to fatal in nature. Some specific bodily injuries that
are not uncommon to similar types of activities are listed below:
Stoppage of breathing; heart failure; stroke; spine and neck injuries (either of which could result in paralysis); broken bones;
cuts and lacerations; bleeding; eye injuries (which could result in blindness); convulsion; unconsciousness; abrasions; fainting;
sudden illness; cramps; loss of wind; drowning; and contracting of communicable diseases. In addition, there is a potential for
accidents or illness while traveling to and from events.
I also realize that as a participant in the activities of Ordo Templi Orientis I could possibly incur non-bodily injuries, including,
but not limited to: emotional, psychological, and social injuries; and damage to, or loss of, personal property.

Well, if you read all of their rituals and advancement ceremonies, there are a series of "pranks" (a better word does not come to mind) that they play on you. They are supposed to teach you lessons of awareness and brotherhood.

Side note - All of the ceremonies reenact supposed ancient scenes in the desert. The details confuse me to say much more

One example: They character that you play is supposedly tired, and they tell you to drink from a well in the ground. They tell you to bend over and pretty much lap it like a dog, and then push your butt so you fall in. Then they teach you about being aware, bla bla. There's your neck injury right there. Of course, that is a very rare happening, but they can't get sued, so they make you sign the waiver.

There is another part where either your chest or stomach is pierced with a dagger. For some reason a dagger and a metal place are used in the first two thirds of the rituals. They happen to stab you one in the earlier ones, and later they make you take a blood oath by cutting your arm. Grodie!

I am qualified in some ways to answer this, but I wonder first what it is that required me to push the Reply button in order to view the first post?

Phallus worship is not part of any Masonic ritual or secret anywhere at any level.

What a funny, mellifluously writing, alliteratively-nomenclatured troll impersonator you come across as. Keep on with the research, but do not attempt to bring it under any banner of "Masonic".

No no no, don't get me wrong. I was asking if any of the Ordo Templari Orientis rituals were included in Freemason traditions. If I have not read official documentation from an organization, I will not accuse them of any type of practise. If I have concerns, but do not have knowledge of the truth, I will ask questions, as I did today.

Thanks everyone for your openness.

EDITED SECTION: DOH! I see where I got ahead of myself in my first thread! I meant to say earlier that phallus worship truly is a part of OTO worship, but I can see that I was still typing about freemasonry at the same time. I did not mean to imply this at all. I meant that it is true that the OTO is involved in this.

My apologies to all freemasons.

[edit on 1-8-2005 by trinitrotoluene]

No need to be all spooky The basics of the O.T.O. rituals were published in a book by Francis King. That's where everybody gets them.

FYI I have read the book, but as I'm planning on joining the O.T.O. I'm doing my best to forget what I read in the rituals.. so far so good as it's been several years. But I just wanted you to know why I'm not commenting on the rituals themselves.



The declaration you mentioned is Liber Oz you can read a copy of it here www.hermetic.com... as far as the rest.. So what? The O.T.O. is not a Christian group, it's a Thelemic group. You have to be Catholic to join the Knights of Columbus, and you have to be Thelemic to join the O.T.O.



Don't worry about it no sex magick in Freemasonry.


The O.T.O. does not confer any masonic degrees whatsoever. the two groups are currently unrelated.


BTW I'm 180degrees from where wiggy stands I support the O.T.O. Crowley, Thelema, but do not support Freemasonry. (NOTE: That does not mean they are bad in any way. I just don't personally agree with some things)

[edit on 8/1/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
I am qualified in some ways to answer this, but I wonder first what it is that required me to push the Reply button in order to view the first post?

It's the all powerful O.T.O. Sex magick preventing the initiation rituals from being posted

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
I am qualified in some ways to answer this, but I wonder first what it is that required me to push the Reply button in order to view the first post?

Phallus worship is not part of any Masonic ritual or secret anywhere at any level.

What a funny, mellifluously writing, alliteratively-nomenclatured troll impersonator you come across as. Keep on with the research, but do not attempt to bring it under any banner of "Masonic".

That would be the application of a "Global Ignore" MA...

And you are quite correct, the phallus, and phallic symbolism doesn't play a part in Freemasonry... I would recommend Shinto if that particular subject is of keen interest to our erstwhile poster.

And how.

Bridge Monkeys, not just for something the trolls to hid under anymore...

FYI I have read the book, but as I'm planning on joining the O.T.O. I'm doing my best to forget what I read in the rituals.. so far so good as it's been several years. But I just wanted you to know why I'm not commenting on the rituals themselves.

Thanks for the info - it helps. On a personal note, when I read through the book, some of the rituals made me feel really sad and depressed inside, and that can't be a good thing. I would encourage everyone to please please please avoid affiliation with the OTO. I don't want to talk about any of the other rituals because I don't like the way I feel inside even just thinking about them. I really hope that I misread some stuff in that book, because some acts would be considered felonies (if I understood the wording correctly). Please, I really don't think it would be a good idea to join them.

Remember the O.T.O. is an occult group and the layman wont understand the meaning behind things. In fact even if your a lower level member of the O.T.O. you might not understand some of the things.

Anyway if the O.T.O. is not for you (and the odds are if your not a Thelemite it isn't) don't join

Originally posted by wiggy
OTO is not recognized by the Scotish Rite. Alister Crowley based some of the OTO degrees off of Scotish Rite Degrees.

FYI, Crowley was not the orginal auther of the O.T.O. rituals, The founder of the O.T.O. Theodor Ruess was.

removing quotes

[edit on 8/1/2005 by Cug]

Cug.......PLEASE.........Read your U2U's.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
...but I wonder first what it is that required me to push the Reply button in order to view the first post?

That would be the application of a "Global Ignore" MA...

Thanks MM. I think you may have felt with 40-45% of your being that my wondering was rhetorical, and directed towards the OTO exposer him or herself. But it is such a valuable community service to role play the part that the dreaded Global Ignore has to play in this thread, for confused "members".


* dances around long, tall totem pole chanting "Deny Ignorance. Deny phallus worship."

Global ignore might be related to the same person posting a thread about how to make homemade TNT.

Originally posted by TgSoe
OTO must be a dangerous group to have a consent form like this- here is a small protion of it- you would think you were going to be kick boxing in Hong Kong or something.

DUDE, THAT IS AWESOME!!! Spinal chord injuries which could result in paralysis? Stoppage of breathing?!? Where do I sign up!?!?!?!?

[edit on 1-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
I am qualified in some ways to answer this, but I wonder first what it is that required me to push the Reply button in order to view the first post?

Phallus worship is not part of any Masonic ritual or secret anywhere at any level.

What a funny, mellifluously writing, alliteratively-nomenclatured troll impersonator you come across as. Keep on with the research, but do not attempt to bring it under any banner of "Masonic".

This was what prompted me to ask the question about ignor in the other thread. This was the second I had seen, and was not that familiar with a global ignore ( they seem rare).

Originally posted by Baphomet79
While Crowley might have taken some rituals from the Scottish Rite, OTO is in no way affiliated with Free Masonry, Scottish Rite, York Rite, or any York appendant bodies.

That is what I tried to say, I appologize if you took it any other way.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Thanks MM. I think you may have felt with 40-45% of your being that my wondering was rhetorical, and directed towards the OTO exposer him or herself. But it is such a valuable community service to role play the part that the dreaded Global Ignore has to play in this thread, for confused "members".


* dances around long, tall totem pole chanting "Deny Ignorance. Deny phallus worship."

I would never wonder at your rhetoric, at any percentage... And yes, the burden of public service required me to so clumsily divulge the true nature of the situation, in an almost NY Times-esque electronic communique. We can only hope that said "member" exposes "little."

I would join your dance, but alas, the absence of organ grinder music renders my feet decidedly "left."

Cryptic Monkeys, not just to obfuscate anymore...