CIA beat Iraqis with hammer handles

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
see this is the BS atitude you foreigners have, is this bred of jealousy, i believe so. Who ever said we owned the world? hmmm? are you so intimidated that this is your belief souljah? How many times has your application for american citizenship been rejected?

BTW, and i know since your from yugoslavia and use to the soviet walls you dont realise this, but we have no walls. just the ones we lock up these iraqis prisoners in.

Jealousy?



Sir, I wouldnt Change my Home for Yours in a Million Years!

Dont worry, if I am coming to the dear ol' USA I'm just coming in to Visit.

And you are Mistaken - you have BIG Walls and Inside of theml your Goverment keeps you Afraid and Blind to just about Everything that happens outside of them.

And I see that your knowledge of Former Yugoslavia is as Poor as your an averege American's History knowledge. Soviet Union never really did like Tito and his Yugoslavia that much - in fact they have tried several Assassination Attempts on Him, but ofcoruse none of them Worked.

It helps if you actually KNOW something about the stuff you wanna talk about and be smart about.

There are LIBRARIES and little things called BOOKS you know...

[edit on 31/7/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Rasputin13
Sorry if I find amusement, or enjoyment, in the beating of TERRORISTS and
MURDERERS. The idea that these people being "beaten" are nothing more than innocent civilians who were just walking their dog in the park is a JOKE. It's liberal propaganda. Despite whatever Bush-hating dillusions you want to spread, these aren't innocent people. Our soldiers don't just drive around and pick people at random to torture. That was Uday Hussein. Ya know, the EVIL regime we ousted against your wishes?

Well if I am under "Liberal Propaganda" - how can I call what you are "under"? Neo-Con BRAINWASHING?

And Most of the People Detained in American Gulag's around the Globe are possibly really Innocent - waiting to be charged of "Something" for 3 YEARS! And how come this EVIL Regime IS Evil only when the dear old Bush Clan is in the White House? Are you saying that Saddam - the Man who was supported by America once - was the Most Evil Guy in the World at that Momemt? How about the EVIL that Breeds in African Continent? You Neo-Cons dont give a Funk about those People killing each other for Decades. Just shows the Narrow Mindnes of your Thinking!

To even compare the current situation in Iraq to how it was for the past few decades, or to even insist that it's actually worse now, is a complete joke. To blame us for the terrorist acts committed by the enemies of freedom is an even bigger joke. You are just so consumed with unfounded hate for our country and our government that you are willing to side with TERRORISTS. You are willing to justify the excuses of those who blow themselves up to take innocent women and children with them.

A joke? Really? Were there Suicide Attacks on Daily Basis? Did People die in Hundreds a Week? Your PRECIOUS Goverment CREATEAD this Situation in Iraq. They Craeted this Terrorists with the Illegal Occupation. And they DO HATE your Goverment, much more then I do and ever will. Again you just cant Swallow that Anti-Empire Agenda that I have, simply because you wont admit your Country actually is an Empire, that does not CARE for ANY Innocent children and women dying everyday in this World - but they are focused just on those few, that JUSTIFY their INTENTIONS in the Middle East. Others can just lay down and DIE!

I'm going against every fiber of my being by not calling you every cowardly and disgusting adjective that I can think of right now. The fact remains that you are just a clueless, liberal... argh I'm not even going to continue. You just make me sick. Keep condoning the actions of terrorists and dictatorial regimes. It really makes you look good. Just don't expect to ever see the Pearly Gates.

Well You make me SICK Also.

Keep Condoning to these Actions of Domestic Terrorists that Seek Profit EVERYWHERE and Invade and Occupy Foreign Countries for their own Sick Corporate Games.

And keep that "Pearly Gates" Speech for your Children - you are not Intimidating me with your Puny Words whatsoever!

[edit on 31/7/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Except for the obvious difference; these idiots are being brought up on charges while Hussein's regime condoned such behavior.

Brought up to Charges?

You mean by Beating up with Hammer Handles and by Slamming their Faces to the Floor?

Is that called "JUSTICE" in your Vocabulary?

And how are YOUR Troops any Better then what Saddam's were?

Have you ever made an objective statement since coming here?

Dear Judge, have You?

OH, its Souljah Again hijacking the thread in his "America the Devil" routine!
Does this stem from deep-seated jealousy or has the US harmed you personally in any way ?
These people are[pay attention!] Terrorists, they have valuable information that is required by the CIA to catch more of these terrorists. Its not like we can give them a big sloppy kiss and send them on their way after they try to slaughter 100's of people is it?
Beating people with handles is no problem at all, especially for animals that blow themselves up in crowded places killing hundreds of peoples wives and kids almost every week. They are merely killing of what they are fighting for nothing more.
Soon they will realize that Iraq consists of nothing but Terrorists and Coalition troops, that’s what they are heading towards!
Also if people on this thread think that America is so evil how come their nation doesn’t have the courage enough to stand up and do what they think is right? Because they cant! All they can do is whine and scream like some pampered child not give any real solutions to the problems that face Iraq now and how to solve them practically
Anybody who supports terrorists or their actions is nothing more that a "DESPERATE COWARD" for they don’t understand that it takes more COURAGE to put forth your point peacefully!

Originally posted by IAF101
Anybody who supports terrorists or their actions is nothing more that a "DESPERATE COWARD" for they don’t understand that it takes more COURAGE to put forth your point peacefully!

Are you unable to grasp the difference between "decrying abuse" and "supporting terrorists"?

It's infinitely more cowardly to abuse a position of trust and authority; but more to the point, I would have hoped that everyone would be able to understand that it's possible to condemn terrorism and the abuse of authority as shown in these examples.

For the love of all things good and chocolately, can we please get past this inane "You're WITH us or you're AGAINST us" mentality? It's really not suited to a democratic society, surely?

Because it's absolutely possible to decry both actions.

Originally posted by IAF101
Does this stem from deep-seated jealousy or has the US harmed you personally in any way ?

You mean the Freedom between Choosing Burger King or McDonalds?

These people are[pay attention!] Terrorists, they have valuable information that is required by the CIA to catch more of these terrorists. Its not like we can give them a big sloppy kiss and send them on their way after they try to slaughter 100's of people is it?

And there is Something (PAY ATTENTION!) Called STATE SUPPORTED TERRORISM - in which Your Country and the good ol' CIA are VERY GOOD at!

But thats someting you wouldnt know anything about, since you are left Deaf, Dumb and Blind from your Birth!

Beating people with handles is no problem at all, especially for animals that blow themselves up in crowded places killing hundreds of peoples wives and kids almost every week. They are merely killing of what they are fighting for nothing more.

No Problem at all huh?

Typical Neo-Con Response.

Soon they will realize that Iraq consists of nothing but Terrorists and Coalition troops, that’s what they are heading towards!

No. Soon YOU Will Realize that Iraq Consists of Two or Three Opposing Sides and are on the Brink of Civil War!

Also if people on this thread think that America is so evil how come their nation doesn’t have the courage enough to stand up and do what they think is right? Because they cant! All they can do is whine and scream like some pampered child not give any real solutions to the problems that face Iraq now and how to solve them practically

What PROBLEM?

You mean the ONE that your Goverment Created in order to Keep you Afraid and Dumb for Decades to Come?

You mean the One Problem that Replaced the Cold War?

Face it BOY - Without any kind of WAR; Cold War, War on Terror or Gulf War - your Precious Country is Doomed! The Economy will Crumble and your Asian Friends will Eat you Alive with their Numbers.

Thats why "They" Shot JFK too - Because he didnt want to Start a Vietnam War.

Anybody who supports terrorists or their actions is nothing more that a "DESPERATE COWARD" for they don’t understand that it takes more COURAGE to put forth your point peacefully!

You mean it takes Bombs and Missiles to put the Point that President Bush Made, forth "Peacefully"?

You Call that PEACE?

You Call Iraq today PEACEFULL?

You must be Blind then...


[edit on 31/7/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by IAF101
Anybody who supports terrorists or their actions is nothing more that a "DESPERATE COWARD" for they don’t understand that it takes more COURAGE to put forth your point peacefully!

Are you unable to grasp the difference between "decrying abuse" and "supporting terrorists"?

Oh, yeah! "decrying Abuse" I've heard that one before!
Isnt that the a crass metaphor for "I really hate the US but I dont want to look like I am supporting the terrorists! " Yeah sure what ever you want to call it now!
Anyway, I said- " Anybody who supports terrorists or their actions ", why does that make you edgy ?? You dont " support terrorists do you ? "

That's pathetic. And people wonder why there's anti-US sentiment around the world?

Right, right...except (as someone else pointed out) Iraqis weren't responsible for the death of Nick Berg. That would be Al Qaeda (assuming we're going with the official story, and not the "The CIA actually did it" theory).

ok, first off i was making a point about anti-american sentiment, which yes is bred from jealousy, sorry but its true. Anyway your going to tell me that the CIA killed nick berg? is that right? are you sure it wasnt the ex-KGB members running around? It's funny how you people keep coming up with these phantom CIA or Mosad agents that are single handedly and diabolically responsible for 9/11, afghani and iraqis wars. your welcome to delude yourself further, but please dont sit here and tell me nick berg was killed by phantom cia agents.

WOW....such big words and the mature nature of some of posts "NOT"

Come on people if y'r gon'a disagree just do it (without the name calling), we at ATS are better then that.............No ?

Everyone can not agree...that's a part of life....but when we don't see eye to eye lets try to deal with it in mature way.

Soldier is trying to say that the American Policy is "WRONG" and I personaly agree with him, and I AM CANADIAN, the US's best friend.

That's my view and if y'r gon'a "knock" me (with name calling), then that will just show the weaker side of y'r soul.

Y'r Canadian friend,
Sven

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by IAF101
Does this stem from deep-seated jealousy or has the US harmed you personally in any way ?

You mean the Freedom between Choosing Burger King or McDonalds?

So now thats the problem!! Your jelous that we Americans can decide where we want to eat! You Cant decide? I suggest you go for Burger king! IMHO
If you just told us that you cant decide which is better, it would have been so much simpler

These people are[pay attention!] Terrorists, they have valuable information that is required by the CIA to catch more of these terrorists. Its not like we can give them a big sloppy kiss and send them on their way after they try to slaughter 100's of people is it?

Originally posted by Souljah
And there is Something (PAY ATTENTION!) Called STATE SUPPORTED TERRORISM - in which Your Country and the good ol' CIA are VERY GOOD at!

Really! How facinating! You mean the Terrorism that the "resistence" is puttin gup or the "Holy Warriors" of Bin laden are carring out in the rest of the world?
Maybe you can walk the walk and actually prove all this CIA-terror link in some court of law. Oh right all you have is propaganda and hearsay no actuall proof?

Originally posted by Souljah
But thats someting you wouldnt know anything about, since you are left Deaf, Dumb and Blind from your Birth!

Is this the voice of a desperate man on the edge?
Tut-tut, Abuses!

Originally posted by Souljah

Soon they will realize that Iraq consists of nothing but Terrorists and Coalition troops, that’s what they are heading towards!

No. Soon YOU Will Realize that Iraq Consists of Two or Three Opposing Sides and are on the Brink of Civil War!

Cool:up Atleast they wont be killing coalition troops will they? So i guess that Civil War is Good [Sarcasm ]

Also if people on this thread think that America is so evil how come their nation doesn’t have the courage enough to stand up and do what they think is right? Because they cant! All they can do is whine and scream like some pampered child not give any real solutions to the problems that face Iraq now and how to solve them practically

Originally posted by Souljah
What PROBLEM?

If people on this thread think that America is so evil how come their nation doesn’t have the courage enough to stand up and do what they think is right?

Originally posted by Souljah
Thats why "They" Shot JFK too - Because he didnt want to Start a Vietnam War.

Wow So he wanted to nuke the Soviets but not fight in Vietnam? You could write a book or something, make money from this STORY!
Maybe give this info to the Feds and have them laugh at you.

Originally posted by skippytjc

I PERSONALLY know more Americans killed or effected by terrorists than I know terrorists that have been beaten by Americans. And as long as thats the case, they can beat them to their hearts content.

You never were the smartest knife in the drawer, Skippytjc.

Originally posted by Souljah

Sir, I wouldnt Change my Home for Yours in a Million Years!

Dont worry, if I am coming to the dear ol' USA I'm just coming in to Visit.

And you are Mistaken - you have BIG Walls and Inside of theml your Goverment keeps you Afraid and Blind to just about Everything that happens outside of them.

And I see that your knowledge of Former Yugoslavia is as Poor as your an averege American's History knowledge. Soviet Union never really did like Tito and his Yugoslavia that much - in fact they have tried several Assassination Attempts on Him, but ofcoruse none of them Worked.

It helps if you actually KNOW something about the stuff you wanna talk about and be smart about.

There are LIBRARIES and little things called BOOKS you know...

[edit on 31/7/05 by Souljah]

Well, as for walls, i dont know what the hell your talking about, you mean we dont have that crap like BBC etc? and that makes us blind and shielded? Sounds like more crap to me, besides werent you talking about literal walls? i think you were, so it seems to me you are quite ignorant about the US and believe that crap on those liberal news networks that you get force fed.

Oh, an forgive me if i dont know the history of some piss ant country like yours, you know i like to pay attention to countrys whose claim to fame isnt starting the first world war and dont split hairs and say that was some other state or whatever in yugoslavia, that seems to be the liberals problem never accept responsibility,BTW your knowledge of contemporary history is so screwed up id hate to think about your knowledge of the long term history.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Originally posted by Souljah

Sir, I wouldnt Change my Home for Yours in a Million Years!

Dont worry, if I am coming to the dear ol' USA I'm just coming in to Visit.

And you are Mistaken - you have BIG Walls and Inside of theml your Goverment keeps you Afraid and Blind to just about Everything that happens outside of them.

And I see that your knowledge of Former Yugoslavia is as Poor as your an averege American's History knowledge. Soviet Union never really did like Tito and his Yugoslavia that much - in fact they have tried several Assassination Attempts on Him, but ofcoruse none of them Worked.

It helps if you actually KNOW something about the stuff you wanna talk about and be smart about.

There are LIBRARIES and little things called BOOKS you know...

[edit on 31/7/05 by Souljah]

Well, as for walls, i dont know what the hell your talking about, you mean we dont have that crap like BBC etc? and that makes us blind and shielded? Sounds like more crap to me, besides werent you talking about literal walls? i think you were, so it seems to me you are quite ignorant about the US and believe that crap on those liberal news networks that you get force fed.

Oh, an forgive me if i dont know the history of some piss ant country like yours, you know i like to pay attention to countrys whose claim to fame isnt starting the first world war

and dont split hairs and say that was some other state or whatever in yugoslavia, that seems to be the liberals problem never accept responsibility,BTW your knowledge of contemporary history is so screwed up id hate to think about your knowledge of the long term history

.

Actually the BBC is probably better than anything you have out there, It isn't perfect, to say the least, but I don't think it is acceptable for you to be insulting a British media outlet when you are probably an American, it doesn't make sense. If you are implying the BBC is a "Liberal" news network then I don't think anything I can type here will make a difference anyway, and I probably shouldn’t bother wasting any more of my time.

P.S. Your History obviously isn't up to much either, why insult somebody else’s if you do not even understand your ancestral roots? "Piss ant country". You cheeky, ignorant, little person, you bring disgrace to the X-files (Thank god you spelt it incorrectly). Think first next time before you go on a rant.






[edit on 093131p://42079 by MERC]

Originally posted by IAF101
Oh, yeah! "decrying Abuse" I've heard that one before!

Isnt that the a crass metaphor for "I really hate the US but I dont want to look like I am supporting the terrorists! "

Uh...no, no it's not . That'd be like you saying "I hate Burger King and McDonalds", and someone drawing the erroneous conclusion that you must also be part of PETA - obviously a ridiculous deduction. You might have taken a huge leap off of the old Cliff Of Logic there, right into the depths of misconception.

Anyway, I said- " Anybody who supports terrorists or their actions ", why does that make you edgy ?? You dont " support terrorists do you ? "

LOL! Nope. Do you? I'm not the one getting edgy at the mere suggestion that the abuse in question is wrong.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
It's funny how you people keep coming up with these phantom CIA or Mosad agents that are single handedly and diabolically responsible for 9/11, afghani and iraqis wars.

your welcome to delude yourself further, but please dont sit here and tell me nick berg was killed by phantom cia agents.

Wow. Another jump off of the Cliff Of Logic.

As WCIP once said.... rest in peace, satire. You shall be missed.

And lest it needs to be spelled out - no, I'm not telling you that the CIA killed Nick Berg. The example was used as a simple illustration of the differences in belief about this entire terrorism debacle.

Though the point remains - the Iraqis didn't kill Nick Berg.

I've just completely given up on you, Souljah. I'm not even going to waste my time quoting your insane claims. You sit on your high horse ripping America while you live in a "country" (I use that term very loosely) who's greatest contribution to the world is the WORST automobile ever constructed, the Yugo. Other than being the armpit of Europe I cannot fathom what gives you the audacity to say the things you say about our great nation. You act as though we do absolutely nothing for the less fortunate citizens of the world. When in reality we contribute more food and aid than just about every other nation COMBINED. Our brave soldiers, sailors and airmen have spent the better part of the last century shedding their blood and giving their lives to free millions of suppressed individuals from the clutches of Nazism, fascism, communism and totalitarianism. What has Yugoslavia done?

Sure, we're not a perfect nation. There's no such thing. But we've freed 50 million people in the last 4 years. What has YOUR country done? Would you prefer it if we just became an isolated nation and withdrew all our aid to the rest of the world? Do you know how many people would die as a result? Do you understand that were it not for our country and its brave allies that you'd be saying "Heil Hitler" every morning?

Instead you'd rather support the suicide bombers, the murderers of women and children, and the tyrants of the Middle East. It's a shame to say this but you're so obviously a lost soul. There's absolutely no hope for you at this point. No matter how many facts you're confronted with and no matter how many times you're proven wrong, you'll still take the word of insurgents and terrorists over the truth. I will still pray for you, though. I will pray that you never suffer the injustice and death that is handed out on a daily basis by the groups and governments you defend. God bless your poor, miserable, lost soul.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Well, as for walls, i dont know what the hell your talking about, you mean we dont have that crap like BBC etc? and that makes us blind and shielded? Sounds like more crap to me, besides werent you talking about literal walls? i think you were, so it seems to me you are quite ignorant about the US and believe that crap on those liberal news networks that you get force fed.

Yea I Knew you wouldnt Understand it - but hey at least I tried.

Crap like BBC?

You are Funny? You have just insulted the Oldest and World Wide Known News Network! Well I Guess that being an Ignorant American that was not to hard, considering you got 666 Channels on your TV and that you Trust your Fox "News Network".

And PLEASE tell me, where did "those liberal news networks" say anything about ACTUAL WALLS around USA?

Oh, an forgive me if i dont know the history of some piss ant country like yours, you know i like to pay attention to countrys whose claim to fame isnt starting the first world war

and dont split hairs and say that was some other state or whatever in yugoslavia, that seems to be the liberals problem never accept responsibility,BTW your knowledge of contemporary history is so screwed up id hate to think about your knowledge of the long term history

.

IF you DONT know the HISTORY then DONT be SMART about it!

Thats my Advice to you.

Dont talk about something you have NO IDEA of - you have proven that in the past, that you dont care and you dont know anything about my Country so please, spare me your Pathetic Knowledge that only makes you look even more dumber.

And TRUST ME, History is something I know alot about. I read Books. That is something you have to LEARN to do also. Someday.

NAaaah! BOOKS? You got TV!

Originally posted by Rasputin13
I've just completely given up on you, Souljah. I'm not even going to waste my time quoting your insane claims. You sit on your high horse ripping America while you live in a "country" (I use that term very loosely) who's greatest contribution to the world is the WORST automobile ever constructed, the Yugo. Other than being the armpit of Europe I cannot fathom what gives you the audacity to say the things you say about our great nation. You act as though we do absolutely nothing for the less fortunate citizens of the world. When in reality we contribute more food and aid than just about every other nation COMBINED. Our brave soldiers, sailors and airmen have spent the better part of the last century shedding their blood and giving their lives to free millions of suppressed individuals from the clutches of Nazism, fascism, communism and totalitarianism. What has Yugoslavia done?

NO PLEASE DONT GIVE UP ON ME SIR!



WoW! What a Speech! It really made my Eyes Watery.

So you are the SAVIOUR of the World, huh?

Let me tell you something - if Your soldiers, sailors and airmen would not have "Rescued" us, the Russians were also pretty damn close. But I belive that our OWN People of Former Yugoslavia were doing a Pretty Damn Good Job RESISTING the Nazi Bastards in this Area - the Partisans. Now I am not saying American Help was not Important - I am saying that YOU are making it look like a "Divine Help from Above". Hey it was a Friggin' WORLD WAR, remember?

As for Saving us from Communism - the Socialistic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was NEVER Behind the Iron Curtain in the First Place!

Yugoslavia, unlike other Eastern and Central European communist countries, chose a course independent of the Soviet Union (see Informbiro), and was not a member of the Warsaw pact nor NATO, but rather than that initiated a Non-Aligned Movement in 1956.

Sure, we're not a perfect nation. There's no such thing. But we've freed 50 million people in the last 4 years. What has YOUR country done? Would you prefer it if we just became an isolated nation and withdrew all our aid to the rest of the world? Do you know how many people would die as a result? Do you understand that were it not for our country and its brave allies that you'd be saying "Heil Hitler" every morning?

You are Making it look like a Perfect Nation.

You have freed 50 Million People in last 4 years?

How many HAVE YOU KILLED in Process?

I dont think anybody counts the Dead anymore huh - just as US Military does nothing to count the Dead Civlians in Iraq Conflict but just watches them die on daily basis.

Instead you'd rather support the suicide bombers, the murderers of women and children, and the tyrants of the Middle East. It's a shame to say this but you're so obviously a lost soul. There's absolutely no hope for you at this point. No matter how many facts you're confronted with and no matter how many times you're proven wrong, you'll still take the word of insurgents and terrorists over the truth. I will still pray for you, though. I will pray that you never suffer the injustice and death that is handed out on a daily basis by the groups and governments you defend. God bless your poor, miserable, lost soul.

Please Spare me your PITY!

I have seen Injustice and Death VERY Close to me and I know what the Face of War looks like - WAR that is AMERICA's Number One Export Article. Do you know the Face of War? Or is it everytime you see it, on the Televison Screen or in the Newspaper Photo?

Do you know the Sound of a Jet Fighter Breaking the Sound Barrier over the City you Live in?

Do you know the Sound of Small Arms Fire Echoing Few Miles away form your Home?

Do you know how the Anti-Tank Barricade Looks like on the Street you were walking on everyday?

Have you ever seen a Helicopter Being Shot down in front of your Eyes?

Have you seen the Face of a Mother that is Looking for the Name of Her Children on the List of Dead and Missing?

I didnt think so.

Its all so Very Far away from your TV Screens, Fast Food Restaurants and Bad Hollywood Movies.

Well, what you see on CNN is not a MOVIE you know?

Its pretty Far away from Kanzas, dear Dorothy!

No Sir, I belive YOU is the one that is LOST in a Perfect World where everything Your Brave Nation Does is GOOD and HOLY - and ANYBODY who things Otherwise is, let me Quote you on that one, a poor, miserable, lost soul.

Looking at your name, do you even KNOW who Grigori Rasputin actually WAS?

You are Funny? You have just insulted the Oldest and World Wide Known News Network! Well I Guess that being an Ignorant American that was not to hard, considering you got 666 Channels on your TV and that you Trust your Fox "News Network".

And PLEASE tell me, where did "those liberal news networks" say anything about ACTUAL WALLS around USA?

Ok, number one despite what you might think i dont have anywhere near that many channels, nice pun by the way, funny you probably reject chritianity entirely but you use certain things as a punchline.

I think you were the one refering to 'walls' around the USA.

IF you DONT know the HISTORY then DONT be SMART about it!

Thats my Advice to you.

Dont talk about something you have NO IDEA of - you have proven that in the past, that you dont care and you dont know anything about my Country so please, spare me your Pathetic Knowledge that only makes you look even more dumber.

And TRUST ME, History is something I know alot about. I read Books. That is something you have to LEARN to do also. Someday.

NAaaah! BOOKS? You got TV!

Oh , and what exactly are you denying that serbs started the first world war em? your vain attempts to appear more intelluctual than the 'ignorant american' make me laugh.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by XphilesPhan]

[edit on 31-7-2005 by XphilesPhan]

BTW, souljah thanks for succesfully hijacking this thread. hopefully the mods will lock it down maybe.