And the truth shall set you free! (The End)

Originally posted by The Conspiracy Follower
Freemasons are supposed to be a charitable organization...

Not true. Freemasonry is a fraternity that voluntarily does some charitable work and contributes to some charities. It is not the red cross, the salvation army or the american cancer society, though I am sure many Masons contribute and do volunteer work for these organizations.
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Originally posted by The Conspiracy Follower
1. What might be the percentage of 33rd degree owners among freemasons? (masonicinfo.com several times mentioned 5% - to my mind it's really too much. If there're ~6mln. freemasons, then according to this statistics there should be ~300k 33rd degree freemasons. It's is really surprising - could you then say what's so honorary about it then? 0.05% would sound better to me.)

There are indeed that many 33rd degree Freemasons throughout the world. The 33rd degree is NOT an adminstrative rank, it is only an HONOR, much like receiving a medal, for outstanding service to society or the fraternity. Based on that, it is VERY understandable that there would be that many 33rd degree Freemasons throughout the world.

Additionally, only masons who are members of the Scottish Rite (appendant body) can receive the 33rd degree, and less than 50% of masons actually do join that body, so there are more masons being made 33rd degrees than you think.

There is only one honor in Freemasonry higher than the 33rd degree, and that is the Grand Cross. There are currently only something like 50 living recipients of this award.

Again, it is not a rank or position, only an award for outstanding service.

2. How long does it take to reach 33rd? (or more precisely, who might be the youngest one about whom you're aware?)

That depends on the level of involvement of a mason in the Scottish Rite. If you ask for the award, you will never receive it, so it depends solely on your service. Additionally, a mason must have receive the Knight Commander Court of Honor award first, which takes at least 4 years.

If the welfare of the society was your goal, I believe there would be plenty of material claiming how good freemasons are, but now I haven't heard of any.

Are you serious? So you mean to tell me that the 50 Shriners hospitals, which treat children FOR FREE, don't mean anything? how about the THOUSANDS of masonic charities that exist? Here's just a few:

mfm.gl-mi.org...

www.pagrandlodge.org...

www.kmfonline.org...

Do a search for "masonic charity" and you will find endless articles and sites with PLENTY of verifiable information of masonic charity and kindness.

And another thing, I spent quite a lot of time browsing the web but was unable to find any cue of fraternity's meeting agenda. What's the point of those meetings? Are you being taught anything during them? How often it takes place?

It depends on if it is a stated lodge meeting, in which lodge business (such as events, charities, sick members, paying of bills, etc) is discussed, or if it is a conferral of degrees (initiation), in which esoteric subjects are being taught.

I would even consider becoming a freemason one day, however, it might be that I am not naive enough for that

Think what you want, the majority of Freemasons that I know are some of the most intelligent, accomplished and far-seeing men I have ever come across. You'd be lucky to be able to join the ranks of such personalities.

Because most of the Freemasons Sebatwerk knows are honorable, therefore all Freemasons are! or at least most! Hasty generalization implied...

Originally posted by sebatwerk

If the welfare of the society was your goal, I believe there would be plenty of material claiming how good freemasons are, but now I haven't heard of any.

Are you serious? So you mean to tell me that the 50 Shriners hospitals, which treat children FOR FREE, don't mean anything? how about the THOUSANDS of masonic charities that exist? Here's just a few:

mfm.gl-mi.org...

www.pagrandlodge.org...

www.kmfonline.org...

Do a search for "masonic charity" and you will find endless articles and sites with PLENTY of verifiable information of masonic charity and kindness.

well, that was slightly exaggerated from my side.

and back to 33rd issue, 1 of 20 freemasons own it, so there's even less left for other degrees - funny thing. Anyway, Grand Cross sounds cool, what's so special about it?

Originally posted by The Conspiracy Follower


and back to 33rd issue, 1 of 20 freemasons own it, so there's even less left for other degrees - funny thing. Anyway, Grand Cross sounds cool, what's so special about it?

As to your original question, the Statutes of the Supreme Council specify that one must first be a 32° member of the Scottish Rite for at least 3 1/2 years before qualifying for the rank and decoration of the Knight Commander of the Court of Honour. One must then be KCCH for an additional 3 1/2 years before qualifying for the 33°.

The Grand Cross of the Court of Honour is the highest honor bestowed by the Supreme Council, and is awarded only to those 33° Masons for the most outstanding services. It is not a degree, but a decoration. Several current Grand Cross members include Ernest Borgnine, Dr. Rex Hutchens, Dr. S. Brent Morris, and Dr. Jim Tresner.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The Grand Cross of the Court of Honour is the highest honor bestowed by the Supreme Council, and is awarded only to those 33° Masons for the most outstanding services. It is not a degree, but a decoration. Several current Grand Cross members include Ernest Borgnine, Dr. Rex Hutchens, Dr. S. Brent Morris, and Dr. Jim Tresner.

I've always been thinking what is meant by those outstanding services - could you provide me with several examples, not just generalizations. Of course I could do some research myself, but this might be more time consuming than I expect.

By the way, I finally suceeded to contact my countries freemasons and received several answers to my questions, however, it seems that they have no intentions to rise from the underground to the daylight, ok, it's up to them. I suppose mass media here isn't interested in this subject as well.

These are the 4 different grades of the 33rd degree:

www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

You will find that there are far fewer 33rd Degree Masons than they would have you believe - this is the executive elite of a Supreme Council.
They can dismiss ANYONE of inferior rank with a notice in red letter by their own authority without ANY tribunal and they have full access to ALL official records of ALL subordinate lodges, although in the USA they waive this right over Blue Lodges, not that they would need to in any case.
Add to that the OTT procession that receives them in an inferior lodge and the term "Grand Pooh-Bah" from Gilbert and Sullivan comes to mind.

www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

You don't get this degree in a Christmas Cracker.

www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

So?

The whole organization has a tendency torwards pomp. Whats the beef?

These are the 4 different grades of the 33rd degree

The document notes that there are 4 classes, and that these classes are merely :
4th class: everyone can wear a shiny button
3rd class: active members can wear the same button but with a purply ribbon
2nd class: no button, necklace worn by anyone elected to the council, by emertri members and may be granted to peopel who've had the 33rd degree for 20 years
1st class: big pretty jem, worn by Sovereign and Past Grand Sovereign Commanders, Eminent Patrons and Protectors of the Order, and distingsuihed masons from foreign countries.
Doesn't seem to be 'grades' so much as more marks of distinction. But that might be a semantic point. And this is from 1786.

They can dismiss ANYONE of inferior rank with a notice in red letter by their own authority without ANY tribunal and they have full access to ALL official records of ALL subordinate lodges, although in the USA they waive this right over Blue Lodges

What do you mean 'dismiss'? Kick them out of freemasonry? Which document explains this?

and the term "Grand Pooh-Bah"

I thought that that was a Shriner term, from an islamic term of respect, "pbah", as in Jesus the Prophet (pbah), etc etc?

Originally posted by The Conspiracy Follower


I've always been thinking what is meant by those outstanding services - could you provide me with several examples, not just generalizations.

Scottish Rite honors are bestowed for a wide range of services. Some of these services include active participation in ritual work, assistance on the kitchen crew, assistance in lighting, wardrobe, stage, and sound departments for ritual work, assistance in janitorial work around the building, assistance with fundraisers and charitable programs, etc.

Basically, and for example, some guys like to cook. Those would serve the Scottish Rite by preparing meals for the meetings. Since they do not get paid for cooking, but are doing it voluntarily, eventually they will be recognized for their service with an honor from the Supreme Council.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
They can dismiss ANYONE of inferior rank with a notice in red letter by their own authority without ANY tribunal and they have full access to ALL official records of ALL subordinate lodges, although in the USA they waive this right over Blue Lodges

I challenge you to prove this. I challenge you to prove that a 33rd degree mason can simply kick out anyone in the fraternity without a proper masonic trial. You can't do it, can you?

Originally posted by MrNECROS
These are the 4 different grades of the 33rd degree:

www.freemasonry101.org.uk...

That link, which shows a photocopy of a page from an old Masonic book by a guy named Mclenachan, is not an official Scottish Rite book or manual, and has never been a contribution to the Supreme Council 33°, S.J., USA. Some of what is written in that book is in contradiction to the Statutes of the Supreme Council, which are the governing laws of the Rite.

You will find that there are far fewer 33rd Degree Masons than they would have you believe - this is the executive elite of a Supreme Council.

The procedure for nominating and electing new 33° members are outlined in the Statutes of the Supreme Council. I have previously listed them here on ATS, a search should turn them up. All members elected to the 33° and other Supreme Council honors have their names printed in the Transactions of the Supreme Council, which are published bi-annually following each Supreme Council session. This information is available to anyone who wants to look.

They can dismiss ANYONE of inferior rank with a notice in red letter by their own authority without ANY tribunal and they have full access to ALL official records of ALL subordinate lodges, although in the USA they waive this right over Blue Lodges, not that they would need to in any case.

The Supreme Councils of the 33° recognize the ultimate authority of the Grand Lodges of the York Rite in all matters Masonic. It is required that all Scottish Rite Masons, including members of the Supreme Council, be members in good standing of Blue Lodges of the York Rite, and any Scottish Rite Mason whose membership lapses in his Blue Lodge is automatically suspended in the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite exists regularly only where the Grand Lodges permit them. Simply put, the Scottish Rite, like all Masonic organizations, is subordinate to the Grand Lodge.

truth? what truth? the truth about how tony blair was part of the same lodge as sinister wildman aleister crowley? the studholme lodge?

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
truth? what truth? the truth about how tony blair was part of the same lodge as sinister wildman aleister crowley? the studholme lodge?

Blair is not a Mason. The "sinister wildman" Aleister Crowley was a member of Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343 in Paris. This was an English-speaking under jurisdiction of the irregular Grand Lodge of France. Because of his irregularity, Crowley was refused admission into the regular Lodges in England.

With kindest regards,

Your friendly neighborhood sinister wildman, ML

Your friendly neighborhood sinister wildman, ML

Wow Masonic Light I didn't know that you had be elavated to the degree of sinister wildman. Maybe one day I will get there too

Where did Sebat go? when did he get banned and why! come on ATS, even i didn't want to see Sebatwerk leave! Is it a permanent ban! hmmm, with my experience of ATS i am guessing it has something to do with a mod! LOL

EDIT: OH and ill answer all the questions soon!

[edit on 8-9-2005 by NeonHelmet]

Wow! Sabatwerk banded. That is a surprise but Stalkingwolf's thread on Real "Secret Society","going away" saddly isn't. I knew I shouldn't have responded with support, even in a u2u.

That is a shame.

Then again, when faced with the same mindless accusations day in, day out, which are bandied around with no proof to support 'em, it's easy to become frustrated.

(And I'd think that applies to both sides in this debate, before I'm accused of blindly supporting one side or the other).

What I'd do for a thread that's based solely on facts, questions and rebuttals, instead of personal mudslinging.

I agree with you neonhelmet about no faith in law, and what I'm about to type answers why I agree with you, I was watching street fury on g4tech tv and the guy hosting took some street racers down to mexico and they raced the cops did pull them over but .. the cops did NOT arrest them the host handed the cop a stack of green bills everyone that saw the transaction knows the cops DID accept a bribe and they let the street racers go without any type of paperwork or not so much as a warning. So yes no faith in law plus you look back back before O.J. case a cop in L.A. was convicted of racism and beating someone close to death mark or marc fuhrman or something like that a dirty cop, a cop gone bad. more and more cops lately seem to being getting caught doing something illegal like a cop here in texas framed innocent people with planted drugs and then cops in new orleans walks off the job? that why I have no faith in the law.

Masonic Light:

I need clarification on some of your posts. I have been "trying" to follow the latter half fo this thread, but I need to understand what the Scottish Rite is and how it applies to other lodges around the world. That being said, the obvious question is, if the Scottish Rite does x, y and z, does that necessarily mean other masonic lodges do the same?

As for Sebatwerk, I found him to be rather unpleasant, with the odd informative post. He was a compartmentalized poster. For myself, Masonry, although interesting in terms of academic content, is a way to collect money from 3 million people and keep them indoctrinated. The only credit I give to people like Masonic Light is the fact that they try to defend their organization with sound posts. However, many questions are left, since, this is not a place where we can all exchange evidence. Just another facet of society where, I believe it was Saldom Rushdie who said: "I feel sorry for those who think they have it figured out."

NeonHelmet:

It would be absurd to deny any relation of Government symbols shown in your slide show to Masonic symbols. Also, clearly that birdseye view reveals an owl, almost identical to the symbol of the Bohemian Grove. The derivative is that, those running the US Government are heavily influenced by Masonry. As an extension, the thinking behind the symbols looks like they are at the top of the intelligence scale, the eye, and the rest trickle down.

I strongly suspect something. These people are exercising a psychological mechanism: "We are the best." But to reduce it, they are poor sacks like us who have less money and power and are as intelligent +. They like to think that a bit of luck and money makes them special, until they slowly realize that their hunk of mass degrades and shrivles like the rest.

But Masonry is not needed as a postulate in terms of describing our leaders. Everyday we experience people who don't care about others, from the bottom up. With exceptions, the world is a sports game of corporatists slinging plots and clashing with each other, the effects seen economically worldwide. How can a people, like you Americans, elect a man who spends billions on an oil war, and potentially bankrupts social services like welfare in the near future. Masons or not, its all the same. They just have a club like kids.