India/Pakista/Turkey Military Rankings

Daedalus3,

Open source data from late last year indicates the Indian Navy has 7 submarines capable of launching missiles, with 3 scheduled to be able to after refits. The Indian Kilo class carries 5 Klub missiles each according to my source: Proceedings.

I'd be interested what your research digs up.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
That's a heli carrier. The Japanese are going to use that for F-35s?
VTOL F-35s?

I think that planeman meant if they had F-35 those carriers would be potent projection assets

India already has Klub-N for some of its surface vessels namely the
Talwar(Krivak III) frigates in the form a single 8 cell Launcher. However these are reported to be replaced/complemented by PJ-10 Brahmos missiles.

I think i heard the same thing. The Brahmos is suppose to be the standard anti-ship missile in india after 2010 or sometime like that

My sources say 8 capable as of now and 2 in refit. But I shall confirm the same.. and post all my findings this weekend.

anyone watched russel peters?

INc2006 I highly doubt that they could have 10 million well armed and trained troops, but anyway what do you consider defeat or success? Occupation? Occupation and stability? Completing an Objective? For me it would be futile and stupid to try and invade and or occupy a country like China and or Russia. As long as you can keep them on the defensive and contained within their own borders then that could be considered a success. I would be content with only conducing air strikes to destroy both its civilians and military key sites while starving it of any outside supply via the seas. Of course this is all hypothetical as WMD’s are not factored in, in that sense all major nuclear powers are "unbeatable".

Originally posted by darksided
My top 10.
3) Israel

I think that we must revert to reality. Israel is a country with a population less than the size of London. Half the military are conscripts - i.e. not professional. The military spend of Israel is not even in the top ten of military spenders - possibly because their economy is so small.

Just because Israel shot down loads of migs a few decades ago DOES NOT make them the third most powerful military! For crying out loud, there has to be some reversion to reality here.

God I hate "who can pee further" competitions! The UK military could better China until they ran out of ammo because China has so many bl**dy targets!!!!

Regards

hey i watch russel peters, but not too often, anyway Russia and China are unbeatable and India too on a defensive war.

Originally posted by chinawhite

90-99% of chinese population educated.

youve gotta be kidding me lol i have been living in china for two years and that is NOT　ｔｒｕｅ

Originally posted by INc2006
ok lets say china can operate 10million troops at one time, now tell do you really think the US can support 15million troops to occupy china and defeat the chinese army. you see it is definitly impossible to beat china or russia or india, unless somehow you trun the army against the country, and that is rather hard in a country like India, China, or Russia. those people are nationalistic, patriotic, and loyal to thier country and proud of it.

chinese plps arnt patriotic mabye these old farts are but the younger generation isnt they dont give a crap about their country

I think I would label the top ten as:

1) US
2) Russia
3) UK
4) China
5) France
6) Japan
7) Israel
8) India
9) Pakistan
10) Germany

Turkey has a rather potent millitairy. If you recall the anti ship missle thread Turkey was high on the list. Turkey also has a experienced army due to its encounters with kurdish rebels.

Some parts of the Pakistani millitary may be badly led/have poor record in combat but not the Pakistani airforce. In the 1965 Indo-Pakistani war the PAF had a 3:1 kill ratio. Some PAF pilots acheived success in the six daywar and Yom Kippur war (3 confirmed, 7 unconfirmed in the 6 day war for no losses) flying for Egyptians. Over the next few years the PAF is upgrading their fighter force with 77 F16's, 36 Chinese J10's and 150 JF-17's (jointly developed by China & Pakistan). While India's Ground forces and Navy are both currently superior i dont think a conventional war between the two would be as clear cut as everyone believes. Ranking India and Turkey is extremly hard, India looks slightly better to me equipment wise but Turkish troops are very experienced due to anti-kurd operations. I believe these asian powers are slightly overated at this point in time and that the Western European powers (UK, France, Germany) have a large edge in quality. These Asian powers are trying to upgrade their forces to a level the Western European powers have acheived. China while having an enormous armed forces (with some well equiped, trained units) the majority of their forces are severly lacking in these two areas. Russia has potential to be a major power again, but not up in the top few anymore(overloaded with old equipment, many conscripts desert, funding, etc). Israel defiantly has a very potent Armed forces, with all their equipment, tactics tried and tested under war like conditions. This is a very important factor as somtimes what works in theory does not in practice. As I have previously said the UK, Germany and France all have well equiped and trained armed forces, of the 3 I think Germany is underated. They have the largest and most heavily amoured ground forces of the three (fourth largest economy).

Here is my top 10, hope it provides a different perspective

1. USA-didnt mention them because i didnt need to, simply the best
2. Germany
3. UK - hardly anything between 2-4
4. France
5. Israel
6. Russia - Japan could be here or better if they had an Army and not
7. China a self defence force.
8. Turkey
9. India
10.=Pakistan
=Spain

in response to the original
1. Turkey
2. India - 1 & 2 very close
3. Pakistan

Unfortunetly i couldn't squeeze Australia in

Originally posted by the_sarge


Here is my top 10, hope it provides a different perspective

1. USA-didnt mention them because i didnt need to, simply the best
2. Germany
3. UK - hardly anything between 2-4
4. France
5. Israel
6. Russia - Japan could be here or better if they had an Army and not
7. China a self defence force.
8. Turkey
9. India
10.=Pakistan
=Spain

in response to the original
1. Turkey
2. India - 1 & 2 very close
3. Pakistan

Unfortunetly i couldn't squeeze Australia in

It sure does provide a different perspective!!
But a totally skewed one at best!
I'm sorry to say that's a really messed up list IMHO.

I am especially concerned about these rankings and I'm hoping you can elaborate with scenarios and examples:

2. Germany
3. UK - hardly anything between 2-4
4. France

How can you put Germany above The French and the British? The French and the British are comparable but the Germans are way behind both!!

5. Israel
6. Russia - Japan could be here or better if they had an Army and not
7. China a self defence force.
8. Turkey
9. India
10.=Pakistan
=Spain

Israel above ANY of the ones below is preposterous.

And finally the Turkey/India/Pakistan rankings...

True Pakistan had a better A2A record in 65,but its not that clear cut.
I can discuss the same in detail, but maybe at another location.Anyways the A2A kill ratios changed in the very next war (71).
And since 1990 the IAF has been much more technically/infrastructurally better than the PAF. Numerical advantage has always been favoring the IAF.
Indeed the PAF is setting out to revamp itself, but the deals you've mentioned will only come into operational effect in the next 10-15 years.That's a long time. India is not going to sit idle till then.I can share with you the projected acquisitions of the IAF in the next decade or so, but again at another venue.

Finally, Turkey; well nobody's putting Turkey down but one must look at their capabilities with greater scrutiny before putting them above countries like India. Maybe this IS the correct thread to compare Turkey and India/Pakistan.
Would you like to post details about the Turkish OrBaat?

(Nuclear aside)

Ok, this is a standalone post, just my opinion.

India and Turkey are both very strong but have different strengths so it is very hard to compare. But I would put India above Turkey.

Both have AEW programs underway but India looks slightly ahead at the moment. India is also slightly ahead in fighter aircraft and air defenses (SAMs etc). Both have excellent armies in general. India is slightly ahead in MBTs (T-90 particularly).

Turkey is likely to have the general advantage of working within NATO which emphasises force multiplication efficiency like logistics and CCC. Also training exchange with Israel. I'm not saying India doesn't have comparable capability but I'd guess the competency edge is with Turkey. India is way ahead on subs and its navy is expanding in size and capability far more rapidely.



In the mid term future, Turkey will get F-35 Lightning fighters which will radically increase their offensive capability. But India will advance further with their carrier capability, Brahmos, LACM and MRCA so they'll keep their edge.

Pakistan is over-rated by many forumites, maybe for political reasons. I'm unbiased but I say it like I see it.

[edit on 14-7-2006 by planeman]

But planeman, The Indian Army has trained the USMC in coneter insurgency ops, and has conducted training.

www.rediff.com...

Exercise 'Balance Iroquis' 2002
Although barely reported in the international press, the US and India last month held their first joint military exercises in more than four decades. The two-week war games, which were held in the Indian city of Agra and concluded on May 28, were code-named “Balance Iroquois” and involved Indian para-commandos and US Special Forces, along with military aircraft from both countries.
Source

2003:
combined special forces counterinsurgency exercise at the Jungle Warfare School at Vairangte, Mizoram. In September 2003, US Special Forces conducted a combined exercise with Indian commandos based in Jammu and Kashmir, in "high altitude, dry and rocky terrain similar to that in which Osama bin Laden is reported to be hiding... [these exercises] helped train US forces in terrain that would otherwise not be available to them in the United States".


2004: Continuation of 'Balance Iroqouis' and others:
Peace-keeping operations workshop, continuing special forces 'Iroquois' series of exercises, and 'Operation Yudh Abhyas 04' (in Mizoram again). The US Marines also conducted a High Altitude Artillery exercise in November 2003.

2005: Exercise Roving Sands
US Roving Sands missile defence exercise in the US, to which Indian forces were invited.

Source[/ur]

[url= www.hindu.com...]
Russia: Exercise Indra 2005


2006

Russia-India: 06/07

The exercises conducted by/with the IA and the IN are well documentd even on ATS.

Also the Indian Army has contributed largely to the UN peacekeeping effort and has gained invaluable experience in this way to an extent that it is capable of sharing the same. Note the Pakistan Army has also contributed a lot to the UN.
Indian Army: UN PeaceKeeping

Kargil itself has generated invaluable know-how in mountainous warfare.
So experience and competency-wise I don't feel the Indian Army lacks with respect to Turkey.

Turkish Delight
The only area where the Turkish Army may havea considerable advantage is the in the 'Gear alotted per soldier' sphere. Here the Turkish Army may be considerably technically advanced. How good is the Turkish Army in terms of 'Network Centric Warfare'. This initiative has just been jump-started in the IN and here is another place where the Turkish may hold the edge.

Summary
However looking at it from a summary point-of-view, the Indian forces can do much more damage to Turkey (keeping in mind geographical distances) than vice-versa.



[edit on 14-7-2006 by Daedalus3]

[edit on 15-7-2006 by Daedalus3]

of course

1:Turkey

2-3 india or pakistan(because nuclear missile pover equal)

but turksland forces and air force best.....

Firstly you can't really cancel out India's and Pakistan's nuclear capability since they're not equal and neither is their capability to second-strike or take out the other's nuclear capability. India has a serious edge here, but since we're talking nukes, obviously nobody gets out unscathed.

Secondly how can anyone summarize Turkey to be 'better' than India in terms of military? Just not conceivable in any angle..

Heres two interesting articles. One on the future indian navy and a report that pakistan is recieving three Marlin class SSK from france. the Marlin is a improvement over the Scorpene submarine which had just been sold to india

Indian Navy has an ambitious expansion programme

New Delhi, Sep 05 (ANI): With the number of ships steadily declining during the last decade, the Indian Navy is looking to indigenise its future requirements. Having around 135 commissioned ships in its inventory, the Navy is planning to build around 35 more ships indigenously.

The Indian Navy is keen to retain its Blue Water - ocean going - character. The ratio of Blue Water to Brown Water ships being 40 to 60 is expected to be turned around to 60 to 40. According to sources, the ships being ordered are scheduled to be commissioned and functional by 2012.

Three Krivak Class frigates have been ordered from Russia, which are expected to be delivered by 2012. The indigenous nuclear submarine project - the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV)-is being built by the Ship Building Center, Vishakhapatnam under the aegis of DRDO.

Among the ships being acquired from abroad, the US warship Trenton, a Landing Platform Dock (LPD), is undergoing refitting in Norfolk, Virginia, and is expected to be delivered to the Indian Navy in early 2007.

The most important acquisition is the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. The aircraft carrier is being refitted in St. Petersburg, and is expected to join the Indian Navy by 2008.
Full Story

France’s Armaris Offers Sub to Pakistan


Pictured is a Scorpene submarine


French naval export company Armaris on Aug. 28 made a formal offer of three Marlin diesel-electric patrol submarines to Pakistan, a deal that would include MBDA Exocet SM39 missiles, a Pakistani official said Sept. 8.

The Marlin would be an updated, all-French version of the Franco-Spanish Scorpene boat and include air-independent propulsion. The sub deal is likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion.

Full Story

Originally posted by LooseLipsSinkShips
I was coming up with a Top 10 strongest militaries in the world list and I assumed that thread had already been done on this board a 1,000 times before. So I wanted to condense my search to the 3 countries I had the hardest time with ranking. My list:

1) USA
2) UK
3) China
4) Russia
5) France
6) Germany
7) India
8) Israel
9) Pakistan
10) Turkey

hey buddy, russia got 30k nukes, UK got almost nothing, how about being realistic here, Russia has more superior numbers and technology and a military as a whole than china or UK, and here's a true list:

1.USA
2.Russia
3. China
4.UK
5.India
6.France
7.Japan/germany
8.Japan/germany
9.Pakistan/Vietnam/NK/turkey
10.Iran/SK/Argentina/Brazil/Venezula

the one with the / are your pick.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
India has a serious edge here

What type of edge are you refering to?