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Man killed in London subway not involved in attacks, police say

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posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 06:21 AM
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I don't like people telling me what to do. . . .especially cops.

Why should anyone listen to the corrupt fascist murderers? They don't own the planet and they can stick their authority. Anarchy seems like the only answer. We are not cattle to be herded and slaughtered. They bleat on about freedom while they kill freedom and about democracy while they rig elections.







posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by Roy Robinson Stewart

I don't like people telling me what to do. . . .especially cops.

Why should anyone listen to the corrupt fascist murderers?



Like it or not, there are rules to be followed in (wherever you're located). If you choose to live there - you're choosing (by default, if nothing else) to live by those rules. If you'd rather not...then the easiest option might be to go somewhere else, non?

Don't get me wrong, Roy - your underlying message certainly got through; the point in this case though seems to be that the police may have either been using rules with which the public were completely unfamiliar (plainclothes gun-carrying cops aren't the usual thing in England), or operating outside of the "usual" rules.

I'm just not seeing how anarchy would be the answer to anything in this situation.

And to use your own question - why should anyone listen to you, above anyone else? Same thing backwards.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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TF

we can agree to disagree then. i stand by my thinking of.......in the present environment in the london tubes.............whether they were dressed like the standard BOBBY or not...........if a herd of folks all told me to STOP.......and ALL of them had weapons pointed..........i would stop.

tourists and regular tube riders alike ALL are aware of the bombings....ALL would be aware that there is a HUGE police presence whether VISIBLE......dressed as BOBBYS or undercover(blending in to the crowds.......or dressed as what us americans call SWAT apparel......

so with THAT thought in mind..........i still maintain that a law abiding person would stop when told to stop when confronted with a swarm of people ALL telling him to STOP or they would shoot.

maybe i'm being logical where there was no logic present.

as i said...............we can agree to disagree


angie

[edit on 25-7-2005 by amb1063]


TN1

posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 06:40 AM
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Dear All,

The above action (shooting of an innocent man) violated the constitution of United Kingdom, and the fundamental rights that emerging from this constitution.

Therefore it is by no doubt murder (with intention to kill) and so if the case goes to the court (it must go) then the verdict will be betweem 20-25 years, but assuming the circumstances then the officer and the officer in charge will receive a less years in prison.

It is an unlawfull, immoral, and extremely provocative action (and stupid).

The plain truth is that an innocent man is dead, as well as others who are killed every day in the Middle East & around the world by the known 'democratic' forces...

TN1



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 07:25 AM
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TextThis shoot to kill madness is INSANE, i dont understand how come any normal ppl could accept that.


NORMAL FREAKING PEOPLE?????......PATHETIC BLEEDING HEARTS!!!......armchair observers totally unqualified and irrelevant......im going to stop replying to these threads because i will get warned or banned.....i dont need to bother talking to a load of cowards that lack any sense of conviction and are willing for others to make difficult desicions for the sake of peace, then trying to justify their jaded "from the comfort zone" ideals onto others.

the difference between us is that i, and others like me are willing to accept that extreme circumstances require extreme measures to combat them, its about having to make that 'ugly' call and face up to (as in this case) the loss of life.....the world is full of people sitting on the fence waiting for some 'peace miracle' to happen......imagine your loved ones splattered across the inside of some blown out railway carrige....all of which could have been prevented by the use of deadly force from a law inforcer willing to stand up for his extreme actions......the way youl talk is typical of all who hide in a nice soft bubble....when the terrorism needle pops it (which i hope it never does) lets hear the song you all weep then.

plain and simple fact...wars have casualties......place me, my family my friends and loved ones in a dangerous situation and i'll rip your face off, why?...not because im some super violent psycho....because i have a greater vision..i would never put you in a position of distress or discomfort intentially.....so dont force me to uphold what has always been right with force, the only option.......sitting down for a nice little chat just doesnt cut it.

The police's actions in the uk were totally justified...get over it.

and on a final note, im sorry if any of you have been offended by what ive said? its not a major personal dig at any of you...i decided when i was young that i would always do my utmost to offer protection to those around me that need it, always act with compassion, and take the punishment for wrong decisions i have made.....all this comes hand in hand with being a shepard and not a sheep....hard line views always come in for major back lash and critacism.

Regards.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 07:38 AM
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Yanno, Optimus....

You have no idea who we are.

You have no idea if we've ever lost a loved one to violence.

You have no idea if we've suffered violence ourselves.

YOU are doing the same thing as you're accusing others - we're ALL sitting here in the comfort of our chairs, contemplating and commentating on the world as we see it. You're no different.

Would it make a difference if I told you I lost not one, but two, incredibly close friends in the 9/11 attacks?

Would it make a difference if I told you I had a relative who was killed in Ireland due to an IRA attack?

Would my opinion then be "valid" by your standards?

There's no need for personal attacks and mudslinging.

So yes, let's get back to the topic, and if we can't handle the other posts here, click on another thread. Makes sense to me, non?



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 07:50 AM
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SORRY TINKLE FLOWER,yeah..i had actually thought about that and im sorry if ive caused any offence....im only trying to prove that results only come with actions...not always the right results though fair point.

to sit and ponder achieves nothing after time...there as to be action....

i suppose my views could be considered a bit full on but its just coming to terms with the fact that there will be loss of life...thats what has always happened in wars.....i prefer to be out spoken and nearer the front line than others and condem those who do nothing.

apologies again for any offence.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 07:51 AM
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Otimus has a good point even if he's gotten emotional in defense of it.

I believe that these "SAS" or special police.. who ever they were.. were charged with protecting that particular subawy platform. (no doubt a team or two in each station)

Someone runs buy you jumping barricades wearing a padded coat and fitting "the profile", then he refuses to stop when yelled to do so.

Justifible force was used. In my opinion these officers carried out their duties. If the man had indeed carried explosives they'd be called heros.

The victum did something stupid in a time of extreme tension. Let me put it this way, just after 9/11 if I stood up on a plane and starting running up the ilse towards the cockpit in a thetaening manner and an under-cover agent on the plane popped two in my back, you know what.. I deserved it.

In short, police can't just "act" but if we act in a way that can be deemed a threat under or during extrodinary times, we have but ourselves to blame for the result of our actions.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 09:38 AM
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So this guy the police 'topped' is or rarther was, an innocent bystander who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Think again! His student's visa ran out 2 or 3 years ago! HE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THIS COUNTRY! Not so innocent now, is he?

So my questions now are:

i] Where has he been?
ii] What has he been up to?
iii] Who has he been doing it with?
iv] Why was he allowed to remain in this country?
v] Why wasn't he deported?
vi] What is the Home Office doing about repatriating illegal imagrents?



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by fritz
Think again! His student's visa ran out 2 or 3 years ago! HE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THIS COUNTRY! Not so innocent now, is he?

(snippety snip)

iv] Why was he allowed to remain in this country?
v] Why wasn't he deported?
vi] What is the Home Office doing about repatriating illegal imagrents?


Simple answer: It's impossible to track every immigrant.

Questions 3, 4 and 5 can be covered thusly:

There is no system in place which would enable the tracking of non-permanent immigrants. There simply isn't the manpower or money available to make this viable. If you have a valid visa upon entry, then you're assumed to be someone who will follow the law, and either apply for a renewal or extension, or leave the country as appropriate. This is a problem for both the UK and the US; and it does need to be addressed.

However, the vast majority of overstayed visa immigrants do nothing untoward; at worst they might be working under the table to stay afloat financially, but generally speaking they're just trying to live a normal life.

I find it troubling that there seems to have been a jump from "he's innocent' to "oh well he was illegal, therefore it's not so bad!" - and I'm just not seeing where "He overstayed his visa" equates to "ooooh he was obviously up to no good". That's a very, very black and white view, and there are too many possible grey areas for it to be appropriate in this instance.

Edited for hypocaffeination-induced spelling error


[edit on 25-7-2005 by Tinkleflower]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by fritz

Think again! His student's visa ran out 2 or 3 years ago! HE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THIS COUNTRY! Not so innocent now, is he?



What kind of a barbarian are you? This man was working as an electrician, working...sending money back to his family in Brazil. Just because his visa may have expired, does NOT give the police the right to gun down an innocent unarmed man in the back...not once, but 5 times...in the back!!!

Is this what its coming down to? Make one think about chucking it all and going to live in the forest somewhere with no access to news.

Disgusting!



[edit on 25/7/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning

Originally posted by fritz

Think again! His student's visa ran out 2 or 3 years ago! HE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE IN THIS COUNTRY! Not so innocent now, is he?



What kind of a barbarian are you? This man was working as an electrician, working...sending money back to his family in Brazil. Just because his visa may have expired, does NOT give the police the right to gun down an innocent unarmed man in the back...not once, but 5 times...in the back!!!

Is this what its coming down to? Make one think about chucking it all and going to live in the forest somewhere with no access to news.

Disgusting!



[edit on 25/7/05 by AlwaysLearning]


I agree. Just because his visas ran out doesn't mean he can be shot 5 times by Armed special forces.


Mistaken Identity
The case of one Hasib Hussain raises questions. The 16-year-old Briton of Pakistani origin was pinpointed as one of the four London bombers, and according to Pakistani immigration officials he visited Pakistan last July via Saudi Arabia.

Now, Hasib Hussain and his father have been interviewed at their High Wycombe home in England by Pakistani TV station ARY. "I first saw my photograph on Channel 4 (news) and I was terrified," the boy told ARY. "I didn't want people looking at me saying, hey, you are supposed to be dead," he told ARY. "Or someone saying that there goes the London bomber." His father told ARY that the family had indeed visited Karachi via Saudi Arabia. He appealed for British and Pakistani authorities to clear up the confusion.


That makes 1 possibly 2 of the "suspected" suicide bombers 100% innocent and not to mention the intel services look like bumbling fools.

How could the intel services have made such a stupid mistake?

Com'on people we are being decieved.

~Peace
~



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:24 AM
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Eyewitness Says no Verbal Warning was Given


The bus journey was slow, as on any other Friday morning, but Mr Menezes seemed to be in no hurry.
...
Lee Ruston, 32, who was on the platform, said that he did not hear any of the three shout “police” or anything like it. Mr Ruston, a construction company director, said that he saw two of the officers put on their blue baseball caps marked “police” but that the frightened electrician could not have seen that happen because he had his back to the officers and was running with his head down.

Mr Ruston remembers one of the Scotland Yard team screaming into a radio as they were running. Mr Ruston thought the man that they were chasing “looked Asian” as he tumbled on to a waiting Northern Line train.

Less than a minute later Mr Menezes was pinned to the floor of the carriage by two men while a third officer fired five shots into the base of his skull.


This is just not right...



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:28 AM
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Sky News is now saying that he was shot 8 times - 7 to the head and 1 to the body. I'm not sure if this has been confirmed (then again what can regarding this story). This just came on on Sky.



[edit on 25-7-2005 by nikelbee]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:41 AM
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I hear a lot about how scared this guy looked. I hear a lot about an unecessary killing.

On the other side, just this morning I heard a woman on a radio station say...who cares.

Both of these make me mad. Both sides. Of course that woman was wrong in saying who cares. Who cares? I don't personally know, but someone does. The other side is just as disgusting. Oh, he was scared...and he was running. He looked like a terrified cornered fox...or whatever they are saying. Do you think those people who were in the subway looked scared a few weeks ago? When those bombs went off??? Were they petrified? Dopes anyone care about them????

The reality of it is this. The guy came out of a house that was under watch for terrorism in the first place. He was wearing a thick coat in the middle of high temperatures. He ran when they tried to stop him. He ran to a freeking SUBWAY FOR GOD SAKES. They killed him.

Yes, it is terrible that the man was killed unecessarily. But what do you expect the police to do? Let a man who is looking and acting suspicious run into a subway system that had been attacked more than once in less than a month? What if he did have a bomb and they let him go? How many people might have gotten killed? Even better...how might the media have presented this..."police let man walk into subway to kill hundreds".


Sorry, he shoulda stopped. It is unfortunate as to how it ended, but I guarantee they were not watching the house for nothing. Furthermore...What was he doing with a winter coat on? The way I see it is that the police had no choice.

For all you people out there who say otherwise:

What if you had a mother or father who was killed in a subway attack? What if they let him run in there abd blow a bomb up....which resulted in the death or your wife or child? Things would be quite different, and dont BS me by saying it wouldnt.

This is war. Innocent people will be casualties. It is terrible, but it is also reality. Trying to keep civilian casualties to a minimum is what we should be doing. But doing it in a manor that endangers everyojne....now thats just plain stupid.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by Sight2reality]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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I'm a little tired of people going on about the 'big coat'. I took my usual route to work that morning to London on the bus... During my journey we picked up the assorted motley crue - but relevant to this story - 2 were wearing big coats: 1 a white puffa type, the other wearing a 3/4 black trench - we also had 2 women with cardigans and one wearing a hoodie.

It was a cool morning on Friday - check the weather.

As for all the posters saying he was told to stop - that hasn't been confirmed - various witnesses say he wasn't.

You can defend the police all you want, but when it comes down to it - they were wrong. If you think it is fine to trade some safety or false sense of security for your civil liberties then we have more problems than just 'suspicious bombers'.

Wake up and smell the political agenda!



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:58 AM
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The man was running, from a house that was suspected in a previous incedent in the first place. Do you think that the police officers actually wanted to kill an innocent man?

So you are saying they should have let him run into the subway? Ill tell you right now. I would have killed him. If found to be innocent, I would feel sympathy, but never as if I did something wrong.

But we'll keep it in your view. He put on a coat to go for a brisk morning job to the subway. Whistled his way out to his front porch to stretch. He was just ahppy to be alive. No reason to run. It wasnt affecting his day that terrorists had been attacking them. He actually was running for no reasons other then his health, and didnt even know he was being chased... Because if he did, then he certainly would have stopped because he would care about the safety of the public too. So obviously he was just jogging, to the subway, coming from a suspected house in the first place, and did not know he was being pursued.

Wow, you are so brilliant! I never thought of it that way...a jog!

If your innocent. You don't run. If your afraid of your pursuers, you yell for the police. I didnt hear anyone on the subway claim to hear him call for help from the police, but you must have. You are the one full of wisdom. You know exactly how to handle everything! If you were there, it would have turned out better. If you were a trained officer. Everything would have been fine.

Everyone in this forum should be more like you!





[edit on 25-7-2005 by Sight2reality]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:04 PM
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I will ignore all your patronizing remarks to say the following:

You and I don't know what was in his mind when he ran - but we DO KNOW he was innocent and he was shot.

I also know it was a chilly morning.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:08 PM
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Lets look at this from the police point of view. Man with suspicious baggage running from a suspect house under surveillance, Man continues to run even after repeated warnings to stop, hum… and I though they were fascist murders.

By the way I’ve seen some video of British cops and they all wear these funny bright lime green jackets and funny hats and drive glow in the dark cars. Now unless they want to alarm the terrorists that there are police outside their house, they cant dress like clowns hence for the civilian clothes.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by Sight2reality
The man was running, from a house that was suspected in a previous incedent in the first place.

He was not running from the house. He left the apartment building to go to work! Was he aware that the police were watching his apartment building for terrorist activity? Would you be? If so, then the police were doing a pretty bad job!


Wow, you are so brilliant!

Save your sarcasm for after you've read the story!

From the link in my last post:


There are eight separate flats in the block. When Mr Menezes emerged from the communal front door just after 9.30am...
Mr Menezes seemed to be in no hurry. He was heading to Willesden Green to fix an alarm system...
Another family member said that he had recently been attacked and robbed in that area ...



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