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Man killed in London subway not involved in attacks, police say

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posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 07:37 PM
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seattletimes.nwsource.com...


"LONDON — The man gunned down yesterday by police as he ran onto a London subway train had no connection to this week's terrorist attacks, police said today. They called the death "a tragedy."

This is murder plain and simple. IMO this is going to cause even more terror attacks. I hope the police in question are charged with murder and do not hide behind " This is just the price we have to pay to conquer terrorism".
I dont know what would scare me more muslim extremists or the british police.


[edit on 23-7-2005 by Sand_man]

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Sand_man]




posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 08:24 PM
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The question that will never be answered. Why did he run?

If you have nothing to hide, then why would you run?
If you have nothing to hide, then why would you resist arrest?

An univerisal truth no matter where you live. Britian or Iran, Christian or Muslim; if you run from a law enforcement officer when ask to stop, then they are going to chase you. If you resist arrest, then they are going to hurt you. If that cop thinks you are trying to kill him, then he will kill you. Not because he is a cop but a man who wishes to live to see his children grow up.

A cop would not shoot some one five times unless he was afraid for his own life. I believe any one on this site place in that cops shoes would not do the same.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 08:29 PM
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I dont agree im afraid Sand_Man...

Everyone said this man was behaving suspicously...
He was runing from police with a backpack.

And in current climate over there thats a stupid thing to do .

Obviously the police fired first and 5 times becuase htey realised at the push of a button them and the civilians around them could be killed.

ITs better to be judged by 12 men in the hearing, than carried by 6 men in a coffin.

They should start warning the public AGAINST having backpacks on the trains.
If you bring a backpack or a bag big enough for a device you will be looked at closley.
If you RUN from police and disobey a direct order to stop, you will be considered hostile.

PLUS, had this been in America, im sure the spin doctors would of already paid big money to some bystanders, and planet evidence to back there story up that he was a suicide bomber.


[edit on 23-7-2005 by GlobalDisorder]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 09:39 PM
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He probably had an ounce of weed or coke on him or something, knew he had two choices, run or be caught. He chose to run and they shot him dead and are using the cover of 'heightened Terrorist alerts' to excuse the fact they shot dead an innocent person, "you know, it's understandable what with the bombings and all".

They are saying they shot him because they thought he was going to detonate a bomb but if he was carrying a bomb then would he really be running so easily?

Does this sound like a drug dealer or an international terrorist?

" According to a witness quoted in London's Daily Mail,the man "looked absolutely petrified" as he ran onto the train. The witness told the newspaper that the suspect, just a few yards away from him, fell to the ground and officers were on him immediately.

"The policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand. He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him."


Police did not confirm or deny the witness account. The Independent Police Complaints Commission said it was investigating the killing, and there were few angry complaints about it.

Tulse Hill is considered rough for London, and residents nearby complain of frequent drug dealing, arrests and knifings. "


Question is, why did they shoot him while they were on top of him?
Is this going to be a precident for future police action? Aren't only specialist police in London able to carry weapons?
Was this someone that knew of the London bombing drills and could of spilled some beans? Is that why he was being monitored by special agents and then shot dead when he had already been caught?




[edit on 23-7-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by Silent Professional

If you have nothing to hide, then why would you run?


Cause there was 5 armed cops chasing you and the guy was from brazil, His english not the best ?


Originally posted by Silent Professional

If you have nothing to hide, then why would you resist arrest?



its a innocent mans rigth!



Originally posted by Silent Professional

A cop would not shoot some one five times unless he was afraid for his own life.




lol: please dont make me laugh

If 3 cops hold a guy down and the 4th shoot him 4 odd times thats murder.
I can see why these terror attacks happens whats this would coming to ?

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Sand_man]

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Sand_man]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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If scotland yard was known for brutality and suspicous deaths now and then, id consider it a possibility,'

Being they've had 2 attack waves, the first thing ur gunna think of when u see someone run avoid police and sit on a train is a bomb.

If the cops hadnt of shot him...
they were taking the CHANCE either he kills us and the innocents
or he's strung out.

If they didnt take the right choice, and he DID end up detonating,
can you imagine the headlines?
"Police blunder as bombers kill 12''

And even tho they had 3 people tackle him...
theoretically all a bomber sometimes needs to do is click a button..

Thats why they had to make sure.




[edit on 23-7-2005 by GlobalDisorder]

[edit on 23-7-2005 by GlobalDisorder]



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by GlobalDisorder

If the cops hadnt of shot him...
they were taking the CHANCE either he kills us and the innocents
or he's strung out.

If they didnt take the right choice, and he DID end up detonating,
can you imagine the headlines?
"Police blunder as bombers kill 12''

And even tho they had 3 people tackle him...
theoretically all a bomber sometimes needs to do is click a button..

Thats why they had to make sure.

[edit on 23-7-2005 by GlobalDisorder]



Big chance to take, shooting someone 5 times at point blank range when you've already tackled him because you think he may be carrying a bomb is pretty stupid. They thought he had bombs strapped to him because he wasn't carrying a bag but was waring a big jacket.

Would you shoot a suicide bomber covered in bombs 5 times in a train full of people after you've already tackled him?

If it was paranoia by the Police then i think it's something every person in London should be worried about because they are shooting people for wearing big coats now.

The Police were not in uniform either so it's not like he was obviously running away from some uniformed police men.

Very strange thing to happen, as if they didnt' want this person alive.



posted on Jul, 23 2005 @ 11:59 PM
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thats bull

Come on,
how many attacks have there bene on trains?>

They see someone, foreign looking, acting suspicously in a big coat in the heat london is experiencing?

He knows the current situation, what an idiot if he was innocent, what did he think was going to happen?I feel grief for the family of the fella, and im sorry to hear of his death.

He should of realised the situation when they told him to lay down..

I think there will be an enquiry and they'll be found to be within the rights of there law.

5 times?

IF they wanted to get rid of him for some other reason, one shot would be fine.
When you want to ENSURE someone doesnt have enough strenght to push down a finger on a button u MAKE Sure.. U dont wait to see if u were wrong.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 12:03 AM
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I don't think it was police. I think it was an SAS killing squad. But we will be told it was police. Plain clothed SAS have tracked IRA suspects before and killed them in public, albeit not in the UK as far as I know.

[edit on 24-7-2005 by cargo]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by cargo
I don't think it was police. I think it was an SAS killing squad.


I think Cargo is right on the money with this one. This is just foreshadowing of what is to come. The gloves are off and it will be a bare knuckle brawl from here on out. More "zero tolerance" policies will be seen.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:11 AM
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The police or whoever did the murder are just trying to terrify the public .. . . it's called terrorism.

All murderers are terrorists and are working together. . . . . regardless of their labels, all these killers are working for the same ideal. . .Death and Suffering.

The ideology surrounding these violent scenarios. . . .all the laws and justifications are just window dressing for the murderers which serves to confuse the fact that they are all on the same side. . . this applies to opposing armies, religions, races and nations.

If they are killing each other they are working for Evil.

If everybody in the world stopped reacting to violence with more violence the problem of war and terrorism would disappear within a few days.

This simple solution is the answer.




posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:17 AM
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far out guys..
outta all the theories about sept11 going around, i wish people would stop SEARCHING for one when its not there..
in this case i believe ur looking to hard..

police state...

SAS killing squads...

the gvt terrorising the public..


Why would the government use its own police forces to terrorise the public?
This is meant to be a thing HIDDEN from the media/public?

SAS killing squads..
why would it be plastered all over the media? why such a public murder of someone if there was something to hide?

Honestly, he was a forienger looking suspicously like a suicide bomber, which magically london has been hit by 2 WAVES worth of now..

really i think u'll find its nothing



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
5 times?

IF they wanted to get rid of him for some other reason, one shot would be fine.
When you want to ENSURE someone doesnt have enough strenght to push down a finger on a button u MAKE Sure.. U dont wait to see if u were wrong.



So why didn't they shoot him in the head once when they already had him on the ground? Instead they shot him 5 times and said they thought he was strapped with bombs. That's pretty stupid, sounds like badly thought out cover story to me.

Shooting explosives can be quiet dangerous to your health.

You can read the report, he tripped, 3 of them were on top of him and a 4th pumped 5 bullets into him while the others held him down. There have been multple witnesses who have made complaints about what they saw.

You can use all the anti-terror debate points you want in making excuses for this killing but it was not about a threat of a suicide bomber because you simply don't shoot someone 5 times at point blank range if they are strapped with bombs.

You don't start shooting people for wearing big jackets either, he wasn't 'stupid' for wearing a jacket. He was from Brazil, for those in England that have never lived in the tropics, often people who go to London are surprised when Londoners think the weather is warm because compared to a lot of places in the world, London's warm weather is still pants and jumper for most of us.

Maybe Blair is going to issue tight fitting spandex uniforms for everyone in the UK so this 'mistake' can never happen again - is that the conspiracy??!



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:30 AM
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Why would the government use its own police forces to terrorise the public?


Because they can. . . . and they just did.

The Police committed a public murder. . . .that is terrorism

The bombers and the police murderers are on the same side. . . .as Tony Blair said, "Al Qaeda is not an organisation it is a way of working". . . . this is (IMO) the truth, and the way of working is to deal out sudden death. . . .that is the mark we must look for, forget uniforms and ideologies, if they deal out sudden death then they are working for the enemy of mankind, call it Al Qaeda or US forces, Police or IRA it's all the same global movement.

Take off their clothes and the murderers are all the same!




posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 02:49 AM
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BBC: news.bbc.co.uk...

When shooting a Suicide Bomber:



BBC quoted Roy Ramm, former Met Police specialist operations commander, as saying,

"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.

Former government intelligence analyst Crispin Black agreed there was no other way of stopping someone who was an "immediate threat to life".


Who shot this man?



Professor Michael Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London, said the officers who carried out the operation in south London were unlikely to be police.

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him.

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."



No way this was an innocent Police shooting a suspected Suicide Bomber, nice excuse thou for what ever reason they really had.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
SAS killing squads..
why would it be plastered all over the media? why such a public murder of someone if there was something to hide?

Honestly, he was a forienger looking suspicously like a suicide bomber, which magically london has been hit by 2 WAVES worth of now..

really i think u'll find its nothing


What are you talking about man? This is no conspiracy. SAS have done this before. Why would it be plaastered all over the media? Maybe it has something to do with it being done in full view of a packed train carriage?

The SAS have followed and killed IRA terrorists in public before. What makes you think they wouldnt do it again? How hard for you is that to fathom?

Operation Flavius

And guess what, they were wrong back then too.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 04:41 AM
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is it national freaking idiot day on ats???

"quote from sand_man"

This is murder plain and simple. IMO this is going to cause even more terror attacks. I hope the police in question are charged with murder and do not hide behind " This is just the price we have to pay to conquer terrorism".
I dont know what would scare me more muslim extremists or the british police....."end quote"

ok mate.....yeah..its sad this guys been shot dead, condolances to his family and friends but lets just get a few things straight.....

the guy runs when told "stop armed police".......?.....your telling me this guys oblivious to whats been happening in London for the past 2 weeks?

police charged with murder?......keep your stupid idiotic comments to your self...for a start your in Australlia....you havent just seen the capital of your country devestated by horrific, cowardly suicide bombers...if youd lost family and friends in incidents in the past few weeks you would think differentley.....

put yourself in the situation....your family is wiped out because police decide to make a split second decision to allow afore mentioned brazillian guy to enter the tube train and press the button.........he acted in a way totally similar to the recent suicide bombers......he got put down after being told stop repeatedley........gets shot in the head???....GOOD!!!......if they had simply shot him in the chest ,arm's, leg's ....where ever???...he could have still activated the bomb.

so sadly he wasnt a bomber....but this guy was guilty of failing to stop when ordered by a police officer in a time when tensions are running the highest ever......the needs of the many far out way the needs of the few.

my heart goes out to the officers that made that awful decision.....and i admire their bravery and am grateful for their acts of self lessness.






TextThe Police committed a public murder. . . .that is terrorism


oh for christs sake.......get of your high and mighty soap box Roy Robinson....human instinct is to survive.....all these comments here are pretty much pathetic.....stop looking into the gold fish bowl and see the reallity of the situation!!!......

its about time the police in the UK started laying down stricter law inforcement...and i believe this has to come from the power of the gun....hopefully terrorists that have seen the uk's unarmed population and police will now think differentley about us being an easy target.

Hitler was a terrorist of the highest order, good job we didnt all adopt your attitude when it came to dealing with the SS's persecution of the Jews.

When they catch the suicide bombers that there looking for.....shoot them in the head on prime time tv.....if you want a peace loving world as i do with no violence and terror wipe out its perpitrators.

the people i really feel for at the moment are the muslim communittys facing reprisals in the UK.


[edit on 24-7-2005 by optimus fett]

[edit on 24-7-2005 by optimus fett]



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 05:40 AM
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Sand Man - you really take the biscuit. Thank God your country has the proper immigration controls in place to prevent the lunatics from taking over your asylum!

What would you think if some cops - say from the great city of Perth - chased, caught and shot a suspected terrorist - in order to protect the Australian public?

Would you still be shouting 'Murderer!, Murderer!' at the top of your voice or should you be quietly saying, 'Cheers mate!'

As to those of you who strongly suggest this shooting was an act of barbarism by 'special' SAS killer squads - WRONG! In my experience, the SAS only target individuals who they know are terrorists or 'players' and on at least three ocaisions, they have operated in this manner, to the benefit of the local populace!

Many papers carried the pics of the two policemen carrying weapons 'that are issued to the SAS!'

What utter rubbish! Many county police forces throughout the country have been armed with these reliable weapons. The weapons in question, are the 5.56mm H&K G36C, a machine-pistole or 'short' carbine and the rifle is the H&K MSG90A1 - a bog standard 7.62mm rifle with what appears to be a 'specialist' sniper scope attached.

So please guys and gals - stop all this rubbish about 'murder'. The guy ran when challenged, despite repeated warnings. That warnings were repeatedly shouted - is a given.

Unfortunately, he paid the price. It's not right, in an ideal world, but there will always be casualties or, as the Yanks say, collateral damage.

In fact, in todays edition of the 'Mail On Sunday' (c) [Page 4 - sub headline] Quote: 'Victim left wrong flat, in wrong coat, at the wrong time' End Quote.

Could this have been a deliberate ploy by the terrorists who may have suspected a 'tail'? Could the terrorists have set this guy up and escaped?

My guess to that is simply YES!



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 05:59 AM
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Hey.

Any chance we can cut out the insults please?

You can get a message across without resorting to playground tactics.

Optimus - I'm a Brit. I did actually watch in horror as the capital of my country was waylaid by terrorists.

You know what?

I agree with a lot of what's already been said. This should not have happened - and something tells me that had it been your cousin or brother who was the victim, you'd perhaps be telling a different story. Either way though, just because A Poster doesn't live in the country of topic doesn't mean s/he doesn't have the right to an opinion, or indeed, a right to support or criticise the actions involved therein.

Then again, it's easy to sit on the sidelines and commentate in either direction - the reality is, none of us will ever know what was going through the mind of the victim, or the shooter.

It still shouldn't have happened though - and blaming the victim might well be falling down a very slippery slope.



posted on Jul, 24 2005 @ 06:15 AM
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Cargo, I know the guy who led that op, personally. Whilst he has never given [me] specifics, he has talked in general terms.

As I said in my last reply, the SAS operate to extremely strict guidlines and only use 'lethal' force when it is considered that 'not to do so, would endanger their own life, the lives of their comrades or the lives of innocent bystanders!'

In reply to queries about the number of shots fired, I myself have taught Close Quarter Battle shooting in and on various ranges dotted about the country. I have taught both military and civilians to shoot at all types of targets - Static, Running [moving] and Timed Exposures - including hostage tgts.

The one thing I always taught was 'double tap the chest and single round to the head!' Why? I'll try to explain.

If you double tap somebody in the chest the heart, although still destroyed, will NOT stop somebody carrying out a 'final dying act' whether by explosive means or otherwise.

By double tapping the chest [heart] you try to disrupt bloodflow to the brain. The brain still receives oxygen [for a couple of seconds] even if the heart is not beating.

The single round to the head [aimed either at the mouth or the bridge of the nose] is sufficient to rupture the brain stem and cause immediate brain death. Forget Hollywood's single round to the forehead. It does not work!



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