Targeting of Civilians by Insurgents Must Stop., page 1
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Topic started on 23-7-2005 @ 11:56 AM by Seekerof
In late 2003, Human Rights Watch stated:

Insurgents in Iraq are committing war crimes by targeting Iraqi civilians perceived to be cooperating with the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), Human Rights Watch said today.


Clarified the above mention with:

International humanitarian law, or the laws of war, absolutely prohibits the targeting of civilians. Civilians working for the occupying power are not legitimate targets of attack.

"All Iraqi civilians are protected by the Geneva Conventions," said Joe Stork, acting executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division. "It doesn't matter whether they sympathize with the U.S. occupation, or with the insurgents."

Iraq: Targeting of Civilians by Insurgents Must Stop

This article was preceded by an earlier Human Rights Article, where it mentions:

Today's car bomb attack in the Iraqi holy city of al-Najaf was a deliberate attack on civilians that violates the most fundamental principles of international humanitarian law, Human Rights Watch said.


And goes on to mention:

"Attacks that intentionally target civilians are war crimes," said Hanny Megally, executive director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East division. "We call on all Iraqi political groups and community leaders to condemn these atrocities, to support every effort to prevent them, and to bring the perpetrators to justice."

Iraq: End Deliberate Attacks on Civilians


Question: For those within the ATS community that condone [ie: approve of, sanction, agree with, etc.] the use of suicide bombers by the insurgency and foreign fighters, what are your thoughts and comments on the above articles and what they declare that such acts are classified as?

Past ATS related topics:
The Logic of Suicide Terrorism: It’s the Occupation, not the Fundamentalism
Why It Makes “Sense” For the Resistance to Target Innocent Iraqis

Thoughts and comments welcome. Save and spare the rhetoric.






seekerof


reply posted on 23-7-2005 @ 02:46 PM by Benevolent Heretic
Question: For those within the ATS community that condone [ie: approve of, sanction, agree with, etc.] the use of suicide bombers by the insurgency and foreign fighters, what are your thoughts and comments on the above articles and what they declare that such acts are classified as?


Firstly, I don't condone, approve of, sanction or agree with targeting and killing civilians for any reason. Just like I don't condone murder or the death penalty.

I do have to say, though that I understand the mindset of fighting to the death to protect what's mine, be it my child, my property, my family or my country. So, if a foreign power invaded my country and some of my countrymen joined them in an effort to gain power, and I felt that my country was threatened, I can see myself fighting this takeover, whether they be military or civilian, to protect what is rightfully mine.

If I felt my fellow countrymen were joining efforts with the invading power in what I perceived to be an effort to take my country away from me or damage it, I can see myself using whatever tools I was trained in to keep that from happening. Granted, suicide bombs and car bombs are not my expertise, so I wouldn't be using those particular weapons. But I would probably do what I thought would be most effective in getting the invaders to leave.

So, although I would find it very difficult, in a matter defense of myself or my property or family, I can see myself actually killing someone.

I'm not aware that the insurgents are military, so I'm not sure how their actions can be categorized as 'war crimes'.

Does this answer your questions?



reply posted on 23-7-2005 @ 04:01 PM by Seekerof
Good point, Cylent773.


Benevolent Heretic:
as posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm not aware that the insurgents are military, so I'm not sure how their actions can be categorized as 'war crimes'.

So because insurgents or foreign fighters do not wear uniforms or are not in a formal, traditional military structure, you are asserting that they do not fall under the guidelines for the rules of war? In other words, the rules of war only apply to the US and those Coalition nations in Iraq? The insurgents call what nation state their home, thier country? If it is Iraq, Iraq is still signatory to the Geneva Convention. Thus, making those fighting 'for' Iraq, be it the insurgents against the Coalition occupation or those who fight for the Coalition and/or the new Iraqi government against the insurgents, bound by the Geneva Convention.

Question: I may be mis-interpreting what you are indicating, and if I am, please correct me, but are you indicating that these insurgents, who belong to no formal military, per se', are to gain/reap all the benefits, guarentees, and protections accorded to them by the Geneva Conventions without having to obey any of the Geneva Conventions rules themselves?

So basically, all the below listed actions of the insurgents and foreign fighters is excused and excempt from them being classed as 'war crimes'?

*the systematic use of suicide bombings
*the systematic targeting of innocent civilains
*using mosques and other places of worship as a base of military operations and/or mini-fortresses where they fight from, literally
*wearing civilain clothing to mask their military operations
*the feigning of civilain status by hiding among the civilain population
*using the civilain population as 'human shields'
*the luring of Coalition forces by faking surrenders
*feigning death so as to draw Coalition forces into traps, etc.
*the booby-trapping of dead bodies, be they civilain or soldiers
*blantant kidnapping of national/foreign officials
*the blantant killing of national/foreign officials

You, as with others, are aware that everything listed above is in direct violation of the Geneve Conventions?

If the US and Coalition are to be held accountable by the Geneva Convention, should not the insurgents and foreign fighters? Again, many here demand that they be treated fairly and by the requirements of the Geneva Convention, and yet, do not have to abide those rules and guidelines themselves?

Is there not a 'double standards' issue here?





seekerof

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Seekerof]



reply posted on 23-7-2005 @ 05:27 PM by Seekerof
Other than trying to derail the topic and spread propaganda, Souljah, your post has what to do with the Human Rights Watch assertions and claims that the insurgents are committing war crimes by blantantly attacking innocent civilains? Stick with the topic, not your own agenda. You have a number of threads you can spread your propaganda in. You do me and those interested in this topic, along with this site, a disservice by doing what you are attempting to do. If you cannot discuss, then don't post.

Anyhow, let me see here:
*Islam strictly forbids the blatant targeting of innocent civilains, along with suicide, in relation to suicide bombings.
*Islam denounces and forbids the use of holy sites as bases of military operations and actions.
*The Geneva Convention strictly forbids the blatant targeting of innocent civilains.
*The Geneva Convention strictly forbids the blatant use if mosques and sites deemed as holy as bases of military operations, etc.

So what we have hear is a religious standard and decree and international law, governed by the Geneva Conventions, that both strictly forbid the blatant targeting of innocents.

Are you condoning/agreeing with such outright actions as to blatantly target innocent civilains, despite the decrees placed on these insurgents by the religion of Muhammad, Islam, and international legal conventions, such as the Geneva Conventions?

If the Coalition occupation is the reason for these forbidden violent acts, Souljah, please do tell why these insurgents are mainly and blatantly targeting and murdering innocent civilains, people of their own kind and following the same religion?

I do not know why I ask the questions I do from you, cause what is sure is that you will not respond, and if you do, it will be to spread further propaganda. True objective discussion eludes you, does it not?








seekerof

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Seekerof]


reply posted on 23-7-2005 @ 05:33 PM by cjf
Originally posted by Seekerof
-[snip]-

*wearing civilain clothing to mask their military operations
*the feigning of civilain status by hiding among the civilain population
*using the civilain population as 'human shields'
*the luring of Coalition forces by faking surrenders
*feigning death so as to draw Coalition forces into traps, etc.
*the booby-trapping of dead bodies, be they civilain or soldiers
*blantant kidnapping of national/foreign officials
*the blantant killing of national/foreign officials

-[snip]-


Much of what is being discussed here has been argued and tried during sessions of international tribunals and war crime hearings , even as early as 1948. Some of the topics ‘partisan’ activities, both legal and illegal, have a good foundation and history beginning in Nuremburg. Some fascinating findings and arguments. A factful read for some history behind some International Law(s) and early precedence. It seems these arguments are not so new.

A good example for a start:


The evidence is clear that during the period of occupation in Yugoslavia and Greece, guerrilla warfare was carried on against the occupying power. Guerrilla warfare is said to exist where, after the capitulation of the main part of the armed forces, the surrender of the government and the occupation of its territory, the remnant of the defeated army or the inhabitants themselves continue hostilities by harassing the enemy with unorganized forces ordinarily not strong enough to meet the enemy in pitched battle. They are placed much in the same position as a spy. By the law of war it is lawful to use spies. Nevertheless, a spy when captured may be shot because the belligerent has the right, by means of an effective deterrent punishment, to defend against the grave dangers of enemy spying. The principle therein involved applies to guerrillas who are not lawful belligerents. Just as the spy may act lawfully for his country and at the same time be a war criminal to the enemy, so guerrillas may render great service to their country and, in the event of success, become heroes even, still they remain war criminals in the eyes of the enemy and may be treated as such. In no other way can an army guard and protect itself from the gadfly tactics of such armed resistance. And, on the other hand, members of such resistance forces must accept the increased risks involved in this mode of fighting. Such forces are technically not lawful belligerents and are not entitled to protection as prisoners of war when captured…..

…. We think the rule is established that a civilian who aids, abets or participates in the fighting is liable to punishment as a war criminal under the laws of war. Fighting is legitimate only for the combatant personnel of a country. It is only this group that is entitled to treatment as prisoners of war and incurs no liability beyond detention after capture or surrender.

Case Number 47, the “Hostage Trial” The Trial of Wilhelm List and Others
(Link to Trial Part III mentioned above) begin near pg. 55



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