Palastinians kill 9 children and injure 40 more

Originally posted by XYZ
it's kinda ironic how some people are on this site and so brainwashed by the media
in 1948 Jews migrate from aroud the world and occupied Palestine and made the most horrible massacres against the Palestineans and the media says nothing aboyt it

i know this. i've learned about this a long time but i wont say anything about it. care to guess why?(hint: noone wants to listen)

after going from country to country in boat after boat they finally settle in palestine, the UN gives them help and aid and all of a sudden they get a wild hair in their collective butts and decide THEN they want to form their own country with their own language and blah blah blah. they killed palestinians for the land they have now, noone says anything. because they were literally refugees without a country everyone felt sorry for them, since WWII everyone has felt sorry for jews and have done little to point out how they are doing the very thing they were victims of.


text on a wall doesnt mean squat when you havent lived in that land for well hundreds/thousands of years.

a religious text does not a title make. if that were the case any of us could come up with our own religion and say "our people" came from such and such land and go there and demand all those on "our land" leave it. does that mean anyone is going to take us seriously? nope, we'd be laughed at but not israel! no no they're taken seriously. how odd!

I am disapointed in the posters above lack of historical knowledge. If you want a group to blame for the setting up of Israel then blame Britian. You can hardly blame Israel for fighting to maintain their country when every battle was a fight for thier existance.

I also support Debka.com as an excellent site for information. Estragons attempt to undermine the actions of a suicide bomber and difuse responsibility for the disgusting act by firstly blaming the news source for reporting it, and secondly especting us to believe that mossad had something to do with killing 9 children, injuring 40 and wounding over 50, is so plainly ridiculous as to be farcical, and a comment worthy of some of our more extreme members. Not of someone as learned as himself.

On the news now the peace plan has been described as "finished" by some.
Why?
Is it becasuse of the bombing of the bus and the killing of all those people?
No its because Israel retaliated by killing one of the Hamas leaders, a person with blood on his Hands.

Want to see biased reporting, watch it happening live now.

Just heard the same thing Netchicken.

I don't understand how they can blame the demise of the peace process on the removal of a murderer and totally forget about 9 little kids dying by the organization the aforementioned murderer leads.

There is a tremendous drought in the area of balanced journalism. What a shame that an institution founded to inform the people has become so tainted. At this point I regard reporters lower than i do lawyers

The BBC isn't as biased as all the American stations sound.........they are independent in their reporting of these attacks

Originally posted by Netchicken
Estragons attempt to undermine the actions of a suicide bomber and difuse responsibility for the disgusting act by firstly blaming the news source for reporting it, and secondly especting us to believe that mossad had something to do with killing 9 children, injuring 40 and wounding over 50, is so plainly ridiculous as to be farcical, and a comment worthy of some of our more extreme members. Not of someone as learned as himself.

Or perhaps he is just able to stand back and view this dreadful business more objectively than you appear to do Netchicken.

It will not come as any surprise,least of all to Netchicken,that I find myself in agreement with Estragon on the points he has raised in the above post.

I think you're standing too close NC.Take a few steps back and get a better perspective of the situation.

As for the claims you have made about reporting.I can only say that the bias you speak of is not something I have experienced in the UK.If anything the opposite is true in the vast majority of British media.


[Edited on 21-8-2003 by John bull 1]

Thanks John for your advice however in the past I have let this debate go past, and only infrequently contibuted beause I recognise the futility of showing people where they are wrong on a board like this.

Peoples deep rooted preconceptions and biases are not going to be changed just because netchicken tells them they are wrong.

However in this situation I saw the chance to predict, accuratly how it would be handled over a crime that was shockingly premeditated and which the loss of life was particulaly horrific.

Also recent debate with people on the validity of suicide bombers as a legitmate weapon were proved patently false in the light of 9 children deliberatly killed and a bus of families deliberatly targeted.

So what you call being "too close" I see as just standing up and saying "Hey look at what you support, look at the consequences of your support, and what will happen".

This situation has repeated itself for many years in the past and at this rate will repeat itself in the future as well. But at least I have spoken against the demonization of Israel and the dieifcation of the Palastinians. Israel has a legitmate case in its actions, and makes legitmate responses to outragious provocation.

Maybe its one of the few times that someone actually points that out to people...

Originally posted by John bull 1

It will not come as any surprise,least of all to Netchicken,that I find myself in agreement with Estragon on the points he has raised in the above post.

I think you're standing too close NC.Take a few steps back and get a better perspective of the situation.

As for the claims you have made about reporting.I can only say that the bias you speak of is not something I have experienced in the UK.If anything the opposite is true in the vast majority of British media.


[Edited on 21-8-2003 by John bull 1]

From BBC

While some correspondents say Shanab was a moderate from the political wing of Hamas, an Israeli security source told AFP news agency that he was one of those directing the group's military activities.

From CNN

Three Israeli missiles hit a car carrying Abu Shanab, 53, and two of his bodyguards as his car drove through the Rimal neighborhood of Gaza City. Abu Shanab, a senior Hamas leader, was considered a moderate and was an architect of the cease-fire.

Where is this so called "American media bias"? I think it's pretty fair overall. (unless you mean FOX)

this is a futile post. I know it and you'll know it in a minute.

but you are all forgetting the premise of cause and effect. what happened to the roadmap? was that even serious to begin with? no

so the IDF broke the ceasefire first. yes, they did. you can confirm this as chronological events can only happen in one line of direction

and lets not forget how the whole occupation vs intifada is devoid of right and wrong. the whole thing is unacceptable, as it is really just a business operation to sell weapons and contraband. that's it.

the settlements are another story, but has nothing to do with the context i am trying to present in correlation with the one already instilled in this thread.

what I am trying to convey is that both sides are capable of being murderers, but the higher body count is courtesy of the IDF's assault with gunships, tanks, and helicopters. oh yes! and f-16's!! so that Hamas and Islamic Jihad won't be able to fly their MiGs... oh wait... the IDF is the only aircraft-capable military operation in the area. anyway, the body count comparison number tells all in comparisons like these. bar none.

Originally posted by AlnilamOmega
what I am trying to convey is that both sides are capable of being murderers, but the higher body count is courtesy of the IDF's assault with gunships, tanks, and helicopters. oh yes! and f-16's!! so that Hamas and Islamic Jihad won't be able to fly their MiGs... oh wait... the IDF is the only aircraft-capable military operation in the area. anyway, the body count comparison number tells all in comparisons like these. bar none.

I see logic like this all the time from critics of Israel and it never ceases to amaze me. What's even more astonishing is that sometimes it's taken seriously.

According to you, Israel loses the moral high ground because they are better equipped and have fewer casualties than the Palestinian-Arabs.

So...to do the moral thing you believe Israelis needs to disarm and die?

whoa. absolutely not. there is no need for more death or blood to be spilled.

what I am saying is yes Israel and the militants should both disarm and the government should form a secular coalition gov't that would employ Palestinian politicians. the problem is getting this idea past the Likud and other conservative groups that really run the redundant and recyclative government.

they dont want to share see? to them, the land was given to them as an act of god when "god" was really those that financed a good portion of World War II (both sides) whilst creating a balfour declaration which was formed by a group of the same elitists.

It is common for people to just post the numbers of dead as if that is some form of justification for suicide bombers.

As more Iraqi's died than Americans, are the Iraqi's more justified in killing Americans with truck bombs, or maybe conduct some suicide actions on American soil until the numbers are equal as well?

Originally posted by Mycroft
[quoteAccording to you, Israel loses the moral high ground because they are better equipped and have fewer casualties than the Palestinian-Arabs.

So...to do the moral thing you believe Israelis needs to disarm and die?

I think it was mentioned before by someone in this thread but the sixty-four million dollar question is: What is it going to really take for this never-ending cycle of continued bloodshed to stop?

Perhaps, as a collective and diversified community, we can all put our heads together and discuss ways, real ways, of doing so....

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
I think it was mentioned before by someone in this thread but the sixty-four million dollar question is: What is it going to really take for this never-ending cycle of continued bloodshed to stop?

Perhaps, as a collective and diversified community, we can all put our heads together and discuss ways, real ways, of doing so....

regards
seekerof

I think I made that point quite clear in my last post to Netchicken in this topic. (I guess you have to be a fanatical poster here to get any attention.)

Look at my last post to see the wanna be answer to your six four million dollar question.

On another note:

I think what Estragon and John were trying to point out to ole Netchicken is the assumption that this attack was a set up to create more jobs and more money in the never ending war. What war is that?

Well the so-called war on terrorism that is. People need to understand that this war is essential. It provides many much needed jobs not only in Israel, but in America. Now is that me saying that average Israelis and Americans want this war to go on?

No.

But the ones who produce the weapons and win elections due to these conflicts do. You must understand the workings of the Military-Industrial-Complex before you can even try to asses why this war is supposedly supported and kept alive by the Intel and military-political war hawks. It is all about money. Think about it.

Now that above stated proposal is just a theory held by thousands, if not millions. It isn't conclusive. So before you go and attack me for making false claims please understand that this is just a suggestion suggested by many before me and around me. So what are you thoughts on this Netchicken?

�And Estragon should be happy with Netchicken's post too! A suspect has been identified now. Do we still have to worry about saying he was Palestinian, Estragon?�

Estragon is always happy with Net-C�s posts.
And we have �identified� a �suspect�, have we? That means...?
Who can better to-day�s Manchester Guardian:
�It is probable, but not certain... the bomber, believed to be Raid Abu Hamid Ritaq from Hebron, ..... His disguise must have been good to have gone unnoticed by passengers with an eye for the outsider�
Indeed it must have been good! Nice of him to carry an indestructible identity document, though.

Originally posted by Fry2
Nice statistics,
Now, tell us how many of these on both sides were armed combatants. What is the age range of a "child"? How many of these "children" were holding guns or throwing rocks at people with machine guns?

Age ..............Total
17 ................72
16 .................69
15 .................54
14................. 53
13 .................44
12 .................18
11................. 14
10 .................12
9 ....................6
8 ..................12
7 ...................4
6 ...................5
5................... 4
3................... 6
2................... 4
1 ...................5
6 months.......1
4 months...... 1





[Edited on 22-8-2003 by XYZ]

[Edited on 22-8-2003 by XYZ]

Originally posted by AlnilamOmega
whoa. absolutely not. there is no need for more death or blood to be spilled.

When you're fighting a war, you fight to win. You use the best equipment you can get and you do everything you can to minimize your own casualties. This is basic military doctrine the world over, it's common sense. Please explain to me how Israel loses the moral high ground by having better equipment and a lower body count.

Originally posted by AlnilamOmegawhat I am saying is yes Israel and the militants should both disarm and the government should form a secular coalition gov't that would employ Palestinian politicians. the problem is getting this idea past the Likud and other conservative groups that really run the redundant and recyclative government.

So you're suggesting that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip be run by a coalition government? Don't you think the Palestinian-Arabs would rather govern themselves?

Originally posted by Djarums
I suppose all the archaeological finds of cities thousands of years old with ancient hebrew writings are make believe JamesLimeLight? First time I've heard that one.

Actualy, I have not done too much research into that particular subject, but if you can link me to a site with info about it, I will be glad to read it over.

Originally posted by Fester
James,

How can you say this is a war???

Because it is a war. Any fighting done between two or more factions containing more than one person each to me...is a war. War can be small, war can be global...but war is war.

This is not really a war. It it a conflict. Arab children who are three years old are only told to feel and act the way they do due to the actions that reflect off their parents. Same goes for Israeli children. They are dragged into this conflict. There is no war, just civil dispute and hatred. You can call it a civil war if you want but the fact is that the populous of Palestine isn't fighting for what the TRULY believe in. Even though that populous has a calling and a banner, they don't die by that banner under the sword and shield. SOME do, but not all. There is no army of soldiers fighting for this cause. Only people in groups. Those groups are often labelled terrorists.

Sorry, but when people start offing one another in the thousands, I call it a war. And this has been going on for decades. Long war. As far as the children go, they are innocent up to the age of about 9 or 10. I have seen this in all the kids Iv'e met that they all start to form their own opinions on things. I know I did. They have their own mind and their own free will. They can choose how to act and how to believe. I sure as hell did when I was 10. And last I heard, small groups of people fighting under the same banner as other small groups were called militias. and If I am not mistaken...weren't militias integral to the formation of THIS (U.S.) country?

They are labelled terrorists because they do terroristic things. If they only attack concentrations of troops and Israeli government officals then they wouldn't be called terrorists. They would be called rebels. Yet in today's world any rebel is a terrorist. Right?

Wrong. At least, to me, they aren't. You go and blow up some buildings because you think another country is the devil, then yes. But when you are fighting for what you believe ot be your home, then hell no. Winners write history. If Britain had won the War for American Independence, then americans would be labeled terrorists. But we won, so the british were labeled tyrants. It all goes hand in hand.

So to blame the populous is just wrong. Yeah, they all have their faults. But it isn't the fault of your average Arab mother of 12 that the young, dumb, and tortured soul of the radical Arab Islamist is going around and killing non-combatants. Now is it?

No, it's not. the populace is waging this war right along with the militias. As far as that mother goes...how do you know she is innocent? Perhaps she is...for the time being. But will she go to get revenge or pray for it to allah? yes. And THAT makes her just as guilty as the ones causing the deaths.

Originally posted by XYZ

Originally posted by Fry2
Nice statistics,
Now, tell us how many of these on both sides were armed combatants. What is the age range of a "child"? How many of these "children" were holding guns or throwing rocks at people with machine guns?

Age ..............Total
17 ................72
16 .................69
15 .................54
14................. 53
13 .................44
12 .................18
11................. 14
10 .................12
9 ....................6
8 ..................12
7 ...................4
6 ...................5
5................... 4
3................... 6
2................... 4
1 ...................5
6 months.......1
4 months...... 1

That was the Total Palestinian children killed in Occupied Territories between September 28, 2000 and August 13, 2003 388


Source: Israeli human rights group

Just one thing.. for every Jew killed, there is 20 Arabs and Palestinians dead.. Just think about it before you start to cry for them.. Palestinians shoot with AK, Jew fire with missiles and 120mm MBT main guns.. fair aint it?

Why does this thread and the Israel Strikes Back one keep getting bumped up with no new posts?