NEWS: Palestinian Authority Declares State Of Emergency

I've got to say that I don't like the policies of the Israeli government in dealing with the palestinian people over the years but I can't find it within myself to condone the type of terrorist crap that Hamas and Hezbollah and the like commit.

Just so Odium and Infinite understand the points I'm going to try to make next, I don't believe being critical of Israel makes you racist or a biggot but I do believe anti-semites use the term "Zionism" when referring to that nation when they want to give a little poke at the jews.

Odium, Theodor Herzl advocated a secular Jewish state and wanted the Arabs to be a part of Zion. In fact Herzl argued that if they couldn't get permission to settle in palestine from the Ottoman Empire then they should try to establish a homeland in Argentina. I don't think he ever intended to beat the palestinians into submission by force of arms as has been stated about him. If you can provide evidence otherwise I'll look at it.

Everyone who truely understands zionism understands that not all jews believe in it and in fact many who advocated it strongly in it's beginnings warned of a future conflict with the Arabs if they weren't shown proper respect. Ahad Ha-am is a good example. Throwing the term zionist out there can be a form of propoganda, it's the same as referring to the palestinians as all being supporters of terrorism.

The "roots" of Israel's statehood may come from zionism and the desire for a jewish homeland but that is not what the conflict is about today. Stop kidding yourself if you believe that it is. The fighting has more to do with economics and social issues than 19th century ideaology.

The Palestinians want the land that Israel has built modern farms and factories on, while the Israeli's have become over-populated and need room for expansion. Both sides are full of intelligent people who have had their needs hijacked by "extremists" of all forms. I doubt any more than 10% of the people in that region want the fighting to continue.

I personally don't believe that the Arabs and the Israeli's are fighting the same war as in 1947. It has morphed from something racial, something religious, and something fraudulent. It's not about "homelands" anymore. Using the retalliation for this or that arguement is just an excuse for both sides. Ask the leaders of the two groups, they'll tell you, their people have needs and that's what the fighting is really about.

A personal note: I get uncomfortable when I see someone use the term zionism loosely. Everyone knows it's been used by propogandists to hammer the jews for a very long time now. I know ATS is a conspiracy site and all but really, that secret Zionist elitist group trying to take over the world is a myth. "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a fraud and it's a tool for anti-semites.

Zionism is a Political ideology, if we can't be critical of it then nobody can be critical of any other ideology and in reality is that a world we wish to live in?

As for Theodor Herzl? Well wikipedia seems to miss out on a of facts, but here are a few quotes from his books (which I own):
“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)

"So anti-Semitism, which is a deeply imbedded force in the subconscious mind of the masses, will not harm the Jews. I actually find it to be advantageous to building the Jewish character, education by the masses that will lead to assimilation. This education can only happen through suffering, and the Jews will adapt."

“We Jews are aliens… a foreign people in your midst and we… wish to stay that way. A Jew can never be a loyal German; whoever calls the foreign land his Fatherland is a traitor to the Jewish people“. (1921)(Jacob Klatzkin)

"The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East ... The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany's side ... The cooperation of the Israeli freedom movement would also be in line with one of the recent speeches of the German Reich Chancellor, in which Herr Hitler stressed that any combination and any alliance would be entered into in order to isolate England and defeat it." (Yitzhak Shamir)

"If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel."(Ben Gurion)
---

Just read over them and have a long hard think about what he said and whay he agreed with.

As for it still not being about Zionism? I am shocked anyone would believe that. They still teach people in the Middle East about the U.N. Resolution and why Israel is in the wrong. Many people can still remember when their was no Israeli state and the U.N. Resolution they agreed to. Remember that was only 59 years ago. Many people are still alive now that were then.

Granted, the unfair treatment of Israel above Palestine and the economic situation has only made things worse and in turn has only caused more problems for the "West" but it very much is still about Zionism, especially when a majority of the Middle Eastern leaders were alive proir to the Jewish State.

Edit:

I don't think anyone was claiming all Jews agree with Zionism or that only Jewish people follow it? That would be awfully stupid of anyone to think.:|

[edit on 16/7/2005 by Odium]

(Edit: Sorry about the mistakes with the quote, I stored them in one text file and got the pages mixed up when I quoted them onto another site.)

[edit on 16/7/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by Odium


As for Theodor Herzl? Well wikipedia seems to miss out on a of facts, but here are a few quotes from his books (which I own):

[...] (1921)

That is intersting. Quotes from Herzl in 1921 and later from one of his books (which you own)

Unfortunately, Herzl died of heart disease on July 3, 1904.

I highly recommend you'd check your......copy & paste sources. ....eeehm 'books'


Rebekka

It's the year the Diary was published, which was done after his death and it is also the version which is in English, which is then again published at a later date. :-)

Edit: Here is a good example of one of his books published in 1956 The diaries of Theodor Herzl . Are you planning on making any more accusations or wishing to admit you lack basic knowledge on his publications within the United Kingdom?

[edit on 16/7/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by infinite

Israel does not permit Palestinian partners of Israeli citizens to reside in Israel. [...]

Thats abit unfair, dont you think?

- Itis also offtopic, but I'd quick want to explain why the government decided to restrict its immigration policies:


The right to apply for citizenship of or permanent residency in Israel was once automatically granted to Palestinian spouses of Israeli Arabs. In the first phase, the spouse would be granted temporary resident status, and after a period of time, he or she could be granted permanent resident status - and later Israeli citizenship...


But starting September 2000 - as a security response to the outbreak of the al-Aqsa intifada - the State of Israel started to restrict its immigration policies and froze many outstanding ‘family reunification’ applications.

After a particularly murderous attack in April 2002 by a Hamas suicide bomber who had received an Israeli identity card through marriage to an Israeli Arab just 2 month before his attack, Israel decided to look deeper into that issue.

According to a report by Avi Dichter (Shin Bet head) in 2003, up from the outbreak of the intifada, 26 Palestinian residents of the territories with identity papers procured in this way abused their very new legal status - the new Israeli citizenship allowed them free movement between Palestinian Authority territories and Israel - and were involved in terrorists attacks against Israel.

So the The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law designed in July 2003 pertains only to Palestinians from Westbank (= ‚Judea and Samaria‘) and the Gaza strip to prevent Palestinian terrorists from obtaining Israeli identity papers is Israels response to this fact.

(This special law does not prevent Israeli Arabs from uniting in Israel with Palestinian spouses from other countries)

The law must be re-assessed annually to take account of changes in the situation.


Rebekka



[edit on 16-7-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Odium

It's the year the Diary was published, which was done after his death and it is also the version which is in English, which is then again published at a later date. :-)

Very wrong again......Ever heard of Jacob Klatzkin?

Other "Herzl quotes" (from the books you own) are also not from Herzl.
Again...check your copy & paste sources!



[edit on 16-7-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by Odium

It's the year the Diary was published, which was done after his death and it is also the version which is in English, which is then again published at a later date. :-)

Very wrong again......Ever heard of Jacob Klatzkin?

Other "Herzl quotes" (from the books you own) are also not from Herzl.
Again...check your copy & paste sources!



[edit on 16-7-2005 by Riwka]

The third, fourth and fifth are not, my mistake. They were taken from my VF profile, where I sourced the books and put them in the wrong order. The others however are. (I just noticed that as I put them all in one .txt file) the others, however are.

Edit: Does it not make it worse that several of the first PMs of Israel said such things? They were fine with millions of innocent people dying?

[edit on 16/7/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by Odium
Edit: Does it not make it worse that several of the first PMs of Israel said such things? They were fine with millions of innocent people dying?

What do you expect when religions preach that you're headed for a better life when you die? Value of human life and the relevance of death is diminished if it furthers your religion.

Palestinian Authority Declared The State Of Emergency on the backdrop of fierce clashes between PA police and armed Hamas men in the northern part of the Gaza Strip.

Up to now, 2 Palestinians were killed and more than 30 wounded in clashes over the weekend in Gazastrip between Palestinian Authority security services and operatives of Hamas' military wing, the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, and thousands of Hamas supporters.

A PA police force opened fire at a car carrying a number of Hamas activists. A heavy exchange of fire was reported between the two sides.

Hamas and several other groups, issued a joint statement calling for the dismissal of PA Interior Minister Youssef, accusing him of issuing orders to the security forces to open fire at its members and other gunmen involved in launching rocket attacks on Israel. (Qurei rejected the demand to fire him).

Hamas operatives mounted an organized assault with light arms, grenades and RPGs on the headquarters of the PA National Security's 2nd Brigade in the northern area.

They also seized a number of PA police cars, which they used to escape from the scene. Several PA police were reported wounded and their vehicles or police stations burned, also the Centre of Gaza City.

In a televised speech on Saturday night, PA Chairman Abbas issued a stern warning to Hamas:

"No one is above the law and we will chase those who participated in the attacks and punish them," he said. "There will be no more weapons on the streets or in our cities and camps. Palestinian blood is sacred and shedding it is [crossing] a red line. We will use force against anyone who tries to trigger internal fighting. What happened in Gaza was a big crime."

On Monday, a high-level Egyptian security delegation is expected to arrive and to try to solve the dispute betwten the P.A. and Hamas.



Rebekka

Sorry if you feel I insulted you, but I did not mantion your name, 'nor was I even referring to what you posted. The facts, and history remain. The "Palestinians" started and lost four wars, and therefore there are no occupied lands. No one was interested in Isreal until they were given authority there. The palestinians have been duped for generations, and it is not Isreals fault. You made no mention of the facts concerning the deal mentioned by Clinton, and nothing of the fact that Arafart refused it. Things are as they are because of what I posted, and not much has been offered to refute that, either by historians or diplomats.... neither of which, I presume, you are.

zappafan1, which bit would you like sources for? I can provide them for you.

And if you're in America, I would have a 2nd year degree there in history - although, it's mainly based around the Civil Rights period, it somewhat did touch on Africa and the Middle East after WW2.

Am I wrong or is the palistinian security battling those killers? Eventually doing the things for palestinian security that the US forces can't seem to do in Iraq (not due to the US Military, but due to the hate in that Country?).

Dallas

Originally posted by zappafan1
Sorry if you feel I insulted you, but I did not mantion your name, 'nor was I even referring to what you posted. The facts, and history remain. The "Palestinians" started and lost four wars, and therefore there are no occupied lands. No one was interested in Isreal until they were given authority there. The palestinians have been duped for generations, and it is not Isreals fault. You made no mention of the facts concerning the deal mentioned by Clinton, and nothing of the fact that Arafart refused it. Things are as they are because of what I posted, and not much has been offered to refute that, either by historians or diplomats.... neither of which, I presume, you are.

You need to do some more reasearch because right now you have a distrorted view of history.

The Palestinians were interested in that territory and expressed their anger when they did not gain control of that area following WW1. They demanded an independent government under Arab control. link

Also, you mentioned earlier that the UN put the Palestinians next to Israel. That was an uneducated statement. The Palestinians were already there. The UN proposed a plan to take a large part of Palestine (55%) and allocate it towrds a Jewish state. That land was not to be exclusively Jewish, in fact the area they allocated to be the Jewish state had a very large Arab population and Jeruesalem had a population that was more than 50% Arab.

The Jewish State: Jews 498,000 - Arabs 407,000
The Arab State: Jews 10,000 - Arabs 725,000
City of Jerusalem: Jews 100,000 - Arabs 105,000
link


On the wars that you mentioned, the four wars that you said the Palestinians started, can you post information on those?
I don't know of four that they started.

On Clinton, the 'deal' offered by Clinton and Israel was not as good as you may think it was. It would have resulted in a lot of land being annexed by Israel and would have put an Israeli security border along part of the border between the West Bank and Jordan. The initial maps I saw of this showed it as much worse than that but that may have been a distorted interpreatation as the site below points out.
Projections of the Israeli offer at Camp David

[edit on 17-7-2005 by AceOfBase]

Wouldn't it be better to change the topic

Palestinian Authority Declares State Of Emergency In The Gaza Strip

into :

'just another Israel thread'' ?

It seems to be that only very very few people are interested to discuss what happens within Palestinian Territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, what people on the street in the territories think about terrorism, and how they and the Palestinian Authority fight against / support terrorism and how they deal with inner-palestinian problems.

The clashes are the worst since Mahmoud Abbas was elected as PA chairman

He and senior PA officials fear that the terror-group Hamas is trying to undermine the Palestinian Authority.

Rebekka


[edit on 17-7-2005 by Riwka]

Maybe talking about Palestinian terrorism is anti-islamic and means you hate all Palestinians. Or thats how it works if you mention Israeli sponsored terrorism, right?

To anyone intrested - The creation of the Jewish homeland and its evolution to most of what we think of as the present day Israel are covered relatively thoroughly in David Fromkins book "A Peace To End All Peace." This book is used by Texas A&M University in it's Middle East history courses and is really an excellently researched text.

As far as terrorism goes, you'll find that Zionists were the ones who started terrorism in Palestine because they were not satisfied with what the British granted them and wanted the British to leave the area--primarily so they wouldn't be around to protect the Palestinians. On the other hand, the Palestinians were selling their land to the incoming Jews at a rapid pace that was reaching out further than the British had intended. These purchases were also creating many unemployed Palestinians (ex farm workers who were not needed any longer to work the farms being bought, because the Jews wanted to work them themselves) who were becoming increasingly militant about the Jews in general and the Zionists in particular. The combination of the two factors erupted into hostilities the moment the British departed. It's hard to say who is more to blame, the British, the Palestinians, or the Jews.

One thing; however, is abundantly clear, the initial hostilities resulted in much Palestinian land being taken over and incorporated into the newly declared state of Israel. The Zionists knew with reasonable certainty the Palestinians were mostly farmers & merchants and would not be able to stop their land grab--and grab it they did. I don't know whether or not paying for the land they took might have prevented the decades of hostilities that have followed, but frankly, I rather doubt it.





[edit on 17-7-2005 by Astronomer68]

Originally posted by Astronomer68
As far as terrorism goes, you'll find that Zionists were the ones who started terrorism in Palestine because they were not satisfied with what the British granted them and wanted the British to leave the area--primarily so they wouldn't be around to protect the Palestinians.

Its true,
its in the history books

Originally posted by subz
Maybe talking about Palestinian terrorism is anti-islamic and means you hate all Palestinians. Or thats how it works if you mention Israeli sponsored terrorism, right?

Deadly battles between Palestinian Authority security forces and its Islamist counterparts in the Hamas and Jihad movements caused the Palestinian leadership to declare a state of emergency in the Gaza strip

The Palestinian Authority began taking down the flags of militant groups that decorate Gaza City streets on Sunday to try to remove all but the national colours.....


The situation is very very explosive in Gazastrip - the events over the weekend carry the signs of a "mini-intifada" against the Palestinian Authority[

But it seams nobody here is intersted in this


For me it is really fascinating to see how a discussion about inner-palestinian issues has been avoided by turning ths topic into 'just another Israel / Jews thread' by copy and paste the same old (often wrong...) stuff again and again and again.....



Rebekka

Originally posted by Riwka
For me it is really fascinating to see how a discussion about inner-palestinian issues has been avoided by turning ths topic into 'just another Israel / Jews thread'

I initially decided not to post in the thread even though incorrect information had been posted by zappafan1.

When I returned to the thread, there was another post by zappafan1, in which he assumed he must have been right since nobody refuted it. That's the only reason I posted here.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by Riwka

Deadly battles between Palestinian Authority security forces and its Islamist counterparts in the Hamas and Jihad movements caused the Palestinian leadership to declare a state of emergency in the Gaza strip

The situation is very very explosive in Gazastrip - the events over the weekend carry the signs of a "mini-intifada" against the Palestinian Authority[

But it seams nobody here is intersted in this

Rebekka

Rebekka I'm very interested in these events and I agree with you that a serious struggle is unfolding within the Gaza. As far as I can determine from my remote, limited view, Hamas is/has mounted an overt challenge to the PLA and the elected Palestinian authorities. If Hamas wins this struggle I fear any hope of peace in the region is finished for quite some time. The Israeli's don't seem to be enthusiastic supporters of the recently elected PA--what with their declaration of lack of confidence in it, but they must have known Hamas would/could mount a serious challenge to it. It seems to me the Israeli's should offer every assistance possible to the PA.

Of course with the twisted politics which permeate that region, if the Israeli's made an open & public common cause with the PA it would probably serve to isolate the common Palestinian people from the PA and render any common victory over Hamas as, at best, a hollow, short-lived one.

If the Israeli's don't want to offer the PA assistance, perhaps the Americans should. Of course that assistance would have to be covert for the most part, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be effective. I can already hear the hue & cry that would result should the Americans do anything like that and it became public knowledge.

[edit on 17-7-2005 by Astronomer68]