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Round 2. Memoryshock V Off_the_Street: Ancient Technology
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The topic for this debate is "There is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that ancient societies had technology far in advance of today's"
Memoryshock will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
Off_the_Street will argue against this proposition.
Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.
No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.
Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.
Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.
Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.
Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of 13 judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority (7) is reached.
This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.
[edit on 7-7-2005 by Nygdan]
Memoryshock will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
Off_the_Street will argue against this proposition.
Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.
No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.
Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.
Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.
Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.
Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of 13 judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority (7) is reached.
This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.
[edit on 7-7-2005 by Nygdan]
Opening Argument…….
Ancient Societies and their technologies……this has been a richly debated topic here on ATS. There are many assertions regarding the more advanced nature of the supposed existence of Atlantis, etc. But I do not intend on using inferred conclusions; rather I will showcase the fact that there is indeed sufficient evidence to support the existence and application, regardless of sociological scale, of a more advanced understanding of scientific concept which will invariably show that more advanced technology was practiced by some ancient civilizations.
Sophisticated knowledge and technological advancement does not preclude mass application, or even a mass comprehension. And I believe that is where a lot of confusion regarding past technological achievement is achieved. The fact that there was no wide spread use of these technologies, from electricity to mechanics, is often cited as the obvious reason for the non-existence of these advanced concepts in ancient times. But what are not considered are the sociological aspects of history….. the lack of an actual, and in some cases, formal education for the majority of any given historical/current population and the subjugation of people into labor groups; spiritual beliefs and mysticisms that would have been betrayed by a wide spread scientific understanding. It would not have been possible for past civilizations to enforce social roles if a general wide spread application of these technologies were instituted. And the majority of social roles available throughout our history were mainly agrarian in nature, with religious models setting the stage for many of the philosophical beliefs that would satisfy any personal inquiry into the nature of reality by the average human. And in more current societies where agrarian roles have been largely automated in relative comparison, service industries and a popular emphasis on sociality has precluded any integration of the technical details of our technological evolution/capacity. In fact, it is highly likely that advanced civilizations of the past could have co-existed with more primitive societies and that the knowledge of these past technologies fell into obscurity through the ages, with the likelihood of advanced information being intentionally sequestered away from the masses to satisfy potential social hierarchal situations for reasons of public safety and control.
Nor was it necessarily feasible from an economic level, as mass production and the realization of factories were in fact largely responsible for the bridging of technological understanding and technological application over a large population. So we see that only in the last two hundred years the implementation of communications and transportation as a result of mass production that have allowed for the transference of ideas relatively quickly and the institution of a better standard of living……cleaner, more efficient (with regards to growth and scientific advancement) and a higher comfort level. That is how modern society views advanced technology, but that is really just a fallacy and an indication of how our current society has updated the definition of the term technology. Ergo, what we as a modern society view as new and never before understood scientific knowledge and application is really just the eventual and long overdue realization and manifestation of technical details that humankind has understood for centuries.
Through the course of this debate, I will show that certain ancient societie(s) possessed highly advanced knowledge in different areas of science and that the capabilities afforded them by this knowledge were more efficiently utilized and superior to current day understandings. The average human in many historical situations functioned within the parameters of mainstream society and in the case of easily verifiable history their social roles in a more civilized status-quo were directly resultant of their state mandated educations and the economic or social motivations inherent in the society. America is a highly efficient example of state produced modality and implementation. So in a state controlled educational system, we have the propagation of primitive histories and nationally identified advances that emphasize the state as the purveyor of all new advances and answers. Hardly do we hear of the role of Islamic scholars and their scientific contributions(an example of repressed historical information); rarely do we view history as a manifestation of human inquisitiveness and problem solving.
And that is how we have evolved as a species all over the world. Intelligence. Intelligence was our survival trait. So why would we as a species with the many hundreds of billions of individuals in our history have only a few people peppered throughout our evolution as the sole creators of our more sophisticated scientific concepts and technological advancements? The very idea is absurd and I intend to show through the course of this debate that technology and scientific knowledge have been a long held human resource, and that we as a society today are still learning from the accomplishments of our ancestors.
Off_The_Street……..I turn it over to you…
Ancient Societies and their technologies……this has been a richly debated topic here on ATS. There are many assertions regarding the more advanced nature of the supposed existence of Atlantis, etc. But I do not intend on using inferred conclusions; rather I will showcase the fact that there is indeed sufficient evidence to support the existence and application, regardless of sociological scale, of a more advanced understanding of scientific concept which will invariably show that more advanced technology was practiced by some ancient civilizations.
Sophisticated knowledge and technological advancement does not preclude mass application, or even a mass comprehension. And I believe that is where a lot of confusion regarding past technological achievement is achieved. The fact that there was no wide spread use of these technologies, from electricity to mechanics, is often cited as the obvious reason for the non-existence of these advanced concepts in ancient times. But what are not considered are the sociological aspects of history….. the lack of an actual, and in some cases, formal education for the majority of any given historical/current population and the subjugation of people into labor groups; spiritual beliefs and mysticisms that would have been betrayed by a wide spread scientific understanding. It would not have been possible for past civilizations to enforce social roles if a general wide spread application of these technologies were instituted. And the majority of social roles available throughout our history were mainly agrarian in nature, with religious models setting the stage for many of the philosophical beliefs that would satisfy any personal inquiry into the nature of reality by the average human. And in more current societies where agrarian roles have been largely automated in relative comparison, service industries and a popular emphasis on sociality has precluded any integration of the technical details of our technological evolution/capacity. In fact, it is highly likely that advanced civilizations of the past could have co-existed with more primitive societies and that the knowledge of these past technologies fell into obscurity through the ages, with the likelihood of advanced information being intentionally sequestered away from the masses to satisfy potential social hierarchal situations for reasons of public safety and control.
Nor was it necessarily feasible from an economic level, as mass production and the realization of factories were in fact largely responsible for the bridging of technological understanding and technological application over a large population. So we see that only in the last two hundred years the implementation of communications and transportation as a result of mass production that have allowed for the transference of ideas relatively quickly and the institution of a better standard of living……cleaner, more efficient (with regards to growth and scientific advancement) and a higher comfort level. That is how modern society views advanced technology, but that is really just a fallacy and an indication of how our current society has updated the definition of the term technology. Ergo, what we as a modern society view as new and never before understood scientific knowledge and application is really just the eventual and long overdue realization and manifestation of technical details that humankind has understood for centuries.
Through the course of this debate, I will show that certain ancient societie(s) possessed highly advanced knowledge in different areas of science and that the capabilities afforded them by this knowledge were more efficiently utilized and superior to current day understandings. The average human in many historical situations functioned within the parameters of mainstream society and in the case of easily verifiable history their social roles in a more civilized status-quo were directly resultant of their state mandated educations and the economic or social motivations inherent in the society. America is a highly efficient example of state produced modality and implementation. So in a state controlled educational system, we have the propagation of primitive histories and nationally identified advances that emphasize the state as the purveyor of all new advances and answers. Hardly do we hear of the role of Islamic scholars and their scientific contributions(an example of repressed historical information); rarely do we view history as a manifestation of human inquisitiveness and problem solving.
And that is how we have evolved as a species all over the world. Intelligence. Intelligence was our survival trait. So why would we as a species with the many hundreds of billions of individuals in our history have only a few people peppered throughout our evolution as the sole creators of our more sophisticated scientific concepts and technological advancements? The very idea is absurd and I intend to show through the course of this debate that technology and scientific knowledge have been a long held human resource, and that we as a society today are still learning from the accomplishments of our ancestors.
Off_The_Street……..I turn it over to you…
I think we should start by agreeing on some definitions, to make sure we’re arguing the same thing.
To me, ancient means over two thousand years ago, and societies are human ones. So I’m going to examine the evidence for and against human societies from, say, 2000 years before the present (BP) back to the earliest time when we know that there were homo sapiens var. sapiens, which I suppose is about 90,000 years BP.
And by technology, I’m going to assume that we’re talking about a technology that mimicked ours in most ways: a demonstrable transition though neoliths to bronze to iron to steel to polymers and monomers, and including quarried stone, with limestone to make concrete; and the evolution of cement to reinforced and pre-stressed concrete; and silicates to make glass and even doped silicon for electronic components.
(If my esteemed colleague wishes to expand or contract the definition, I am at his service.)
And, of course, with the purported existence of an ancient technology, we should see an infrastructure to support and drive that technology, including:
Open-pit mines or quarries for some earth materials, deep hard-rock mines for others.
Ancient stone or reinforced concrete foundations for buildings.
Traces of long-life polymers or metals hidden somewhere safe from the ravages of ultraviolet, air, or water.
Outlines of ancient roads, foundations, harbors, etc.
Ice cores from, say, Greenland, showing micro- and macro-climatic changes resulting from technology’s dark side, including pollution from burning hydrocarbons.
Stockpiles of long-lasting (and still poisonous) uranium or plutonium fuel from ancient reactors.
We see all of these things now; they are so prevalent with our technological society that most people agree that we would still see remnants a hundred thousand or even a half-million years from now – at least somewhere on the earth or under the sea.
Now a purported ancient high-technology civilization might not have all of those artifacts from their mechanisms or the infrastructure used to produce those artifacts. But it would have to display at least some of them, and that means that there should be – somewhere – physical evidence of such devices or the infrastructure required to produce and sustain them.
It is, I believe, exactly this kind of evidence that my colleagues is being asked to produce, and such evidence, in my opinion, simply does not exist.
What most proponents of an ancient technology seem to rely on for “evidence” falls into two broad categories:
The first category consists of ancient myths or legends that could be interpreted as fact when, in reality they are remnants of pre-historic happening. And example is the creation of what is now the Black Sea about 7000 years BP caused by rising waters from the Mediterranean as a result of melting glaciers from the post-Younger Dryas as described by Ryan and Pittman coming down to us as legend such as Gilgamesh and Noah.
A second category is interpreting myths and legends as being something they’re not. An example of this is in the Old Testament book of Ezekiel where some claim that the allegory of the wheel is a spaceship, or in the Hindu myth of Vymanika Shastra to be a “textbook” on aircraft design, metallurgy, etc.
In neither case, though, can we consider the data as evidence. In the first we have unsophisticated pre-technological cultures interpreting a mysterious (to them) physical happening like an ancient flood. In the second we have modern readers arbitrarily forcing vague myths into their (the modern readers’) world-view; I refer to this as “wishful-thinking translating”.
Finally, we see proponents of the “ancient-technology” assertions saying that there must have been a precursor high-tech culture, else we could not have reached where we are is such a relatively short (compared to the five-thousand year span of recorded history) time.
There are two flaws in that assumption. First, if the precursor culture had an impact on us, we should have seen more evidence. If there were enough evidence of the precursor technology to “kick-start” modern technology, then records of that precursor should be available to us as well – and they aren’t.
Second, the ancient-technology believers, by doubting that we could have moved so far so fast, miss out on the two key inventions which have enabled us to do precisely that: the scientific method and the printing press. Given the (1) coherent tool for gaining knowledge and (2) the mechanism for retaining and disseminating that knowledge, we can say that an asymptotic-curve jump in knowledge follows those two inventions as sure as night follows day.
To summarize, proponents of an ancient technology rely on flawed methods for determining that technology’s existence, and completely lack any physical evidence of such a high-tech culture anytime in humankind’s past.
To me, ancient means over two thousand years ago, and societies are human ones. So I’m going to examine the evidence for and against human societies from, say, 2000 years before the present (BP) back to the earliest time when we know that there were homo sapiens var. sapiens, which I suppose is about 90,000 years BP.
And by technology, I’m going to assume that we’re talking about a technology that mimicked ours in most ways: a demonstrable transition though neoliths to bronze to iron to steel to polymers and monomers, and including quarried stone, with limestone to make concrete; and the evolution of cement to reinforced and pre-stressed concrete; and silicates to make glass and even doped silicon for electronic components.
(If my esteemed colleague wishes to expand or contract the definition, I am at his service.)
And, of course, with the purported existence of an ancient technology, we should see an infrastructure to support and drive that technology, including:
Open-pit mines or quarries for some earth materials, deep hard-rock mines for others.
Ancient stone or reinforced concrete foundations for buildings.
Traces of long-life polymers or metals hidden somewhere safe from the ravages of ultraviolet, air, or water.
Outlines of ancient roads, foundations, harbors, etc.
Ice cores from, say, Greenland, showing micro- and macro-climatic changes resulting from technology’s dark side, including pollution from burning hydrocarbons.
Stockpiles of long-lasting (and still poisonous) uranium or plutonium fuel from ancient reactors.
We see all of these things now; they are so prevalent with our technological society that most people agree that we would still see remnants a hundred thousand or even a half-million years from now – at least somewhere on the earth or under the sea.
Now a purported ancient high-technology civilization might not have all of those artifacts from their mechanisms or the infrastructure used to produce those artifacts. But it would have to display at least some of them, and that means that there should be – somewhere – physical evidence of such devices or the infrastructure required to produce and sustain them.
It is, I believe, exactly this kind of evidence that my colleagues is being asked to produce, and such evidence, in my opinion, simply does not exist.
What most proponents of an ancient technology seem to rely on for “evidence” falls into two broad categories:
The first category consists of ancient myths or legends that could be interpreted as fact when, in reality they are remnants of pre-historic happening. And example is the creation of what is now the Black Sea about 7000 years BP caused by rising waters from the Mediterranean as a result of melting glaciers from the post-Younger Dryas as described by Ryan and Pittman coming down to us as legend such as Gilgamesh and Noah.
A second category is interpreting myths and legends as being something they’re not. An example of this is in the Old Testament book of Ezekiel where some claim that the allegory of the wheel is a spaceship, or in the Hindu myth of Vymanika Shastra to be a “textbook” on aircraft design, metallurgy, etc.
In neither case, though, can we consider the data as evidence. In the first we have unsophisticated pre-technological cultures interpreting a mysterious (to them) physical happening like an ancient flood. In the second we have modern readers arbitrarily forcing vague myths into their (the modern readers’) world-view; I refer to this as “wishful-thinking translating”.
Finally, we see proponents of the “ancient-technology” assertions saying that there must have been a precursor high-tech culture, else we could not have reached where we are is such a relatively short (compared to the five-thousand year span of recorded history) time.
There are two flaws in that assumption. First, if the precursor culture had an impact on us, we should have seen more evidence. If there were enough evidence of the precursor technology to “kick-start” modern technology, then records of that precursor should be available to us as well – and they aren’t.
Second, the ancient-technology believers, by doubting that we could have moved so far so fast, miss out on the two key inventions which have enabled us to do precisely that: the scientific method and the printing press. Given the (1) coherent tool for gaining knowledge and (2) the mechanism for retaining and disseminating that knowledge, we can say that an asymptotic-curve jump in knowledge follows those two inventions as sure as night follows day.
To summarize, proponents of an ancient technology rely on flawed methods for determining that technology’s existence, and completely lack any physical evidence of such a high-tech culture anytime in humankind’s past.
1st Argument….
Assuredly, Off_The_Street, we are arguing the same thing. My opening argument was to set-up the fact that throughout history, there has been a division among humanity……those who are so inclined to question their environment and the various interplays found within in contrast to those who take part merely in their existence while listening and taking heed of pre-determined answers that assuage their immediate concerns. As that is a sociological fact, we can then determine that any evidence sophisticated enough to require sophisticated measurements will largely go unnoticed during the formative phases of an evolving civilization. Once sophisticated forms of measurement have been reintroduced, it is also likely that the containment of these ‘proofs’ can be kept relatively quiet as the exposure of informed individuals will be kept at a minimum for various reasons…..scientific elitism, government suppression and even the prudence of holding out for ‘definitive evidence.’ Remember, one of the most important aspects of a stable society, and inherently successful, is the status-quo and the suppression of evidence that would contradict widely held conception is necessary to maintain stability.
That said, we need to take a look at what evidence we do have available to determine the existence of advanced technology in past societies……
www.indiacause.com...
Quoted from one of the leading scientists of the Manhattan Project, it is clear that a reputable industry man believed that ancient societies had nuclear technology. And nuclear technology is one of the earmarks of an advanced society......but the evidence isn’t limited to the say so of but one scientist....
Our attention now turns to Mohenjo-Daro. An ancient Indian civilization, it flourished for approximately two to three thousand years and was one of the most advanced civilizations on our planet. But the interesting fact turned up by archaeologists in the early 1900’s is the fact that it’s destruction was determined to be almost abrupt. The town was not only in ruins, but there was no geological evidence to support a natural disaster or even a meteoric impact. The highlights of the investigation are quoted as follows….
english.pravda.ru...
Radioactive skeletons, and a decreasing ratio of damage on all sides the further from the site we go all suggest heavily as empirical evidence towards a nuclear occurrence. But where are these skeletons and why do we hear very little regarding this site and its heavy handed implications? Simple, and that is the suppression of information for reasons I have explained earlier. Also, given the time period of the discovery of the site, it is relatively easy to keep this information as fairly centralized and away from the concerns of the uneducated and unexposed.
But back to the evidence, it is well understood that sand when exposed to an incredible heat source will turn into glass. Since there are no volcanoes in the vicinity and there is no evidence to support any other geological or otherwise ‘natural’ event to sustain stratums of glass, we‘re left with the seemingly unrealistic conclusion of a nuclear event in ancient India…….couple that with the radioactive skeletons and there is no other reasonable explanation.
Other references exist that lend extreme credibility to the advanced nature of ancient India. The excavation of Mohenjo-Daro is but one example, but it is a very important piece of the picture.
I shall now turn it back over to Off_The_Street…….
Assuredly, Off_The_Street, we are arguing the same thing. My opening argument was to set-up the fact that throughout history, there has been a division among humanity……those who are so inclined to question their environment and the various interplays found within in contrast to those who take part merely in their existence while listening and taking heed of pre-determined answers that assuage their immediate concerns. As that is a sociological fact, we can then determine that any evidence sophisticated enough to require sophisticated measurements will largely go unnoticed during the formative phases of an evolving civilization. Once sophisticated forms of measurement have been reintroduced, it is also likely that the containment of these ‘proofs’ can be kept relatively quiet as the exposure of informed individuals will be kept at a minimum for various reasons…..scientific elitism, government suppression and even the prudence of holding out for ‘definitive evidence.’ Remember, one of the most important aspects of a stable society, and inherently successful, is the status-quo and the suppression of evidence that would contradict widely held conception is necessary to maintain stability.
That said, we need to take a look at what evidence we do have available to determine the existence of advanced technology in past societies……
Even Dr. Robert Oppenheimer, scientist[snip]
gave a strangely qualified answer to a student who asked, “Was the bomb exploded at Alamogordo during the Manhattan Project the first one to be detonated?” The answer was, “Well - yes. In modern times, of course.”
www.indiacause.com...
Quoted from one of the leading scientists of the Manhattan Project, it is clear that a reputable industry man believed that ancient societies had nuclear technology. And nuclear technology is one of the earmarks of an advanced society......but the evidence isn’t limited to the say so of but one scientist....
Our attention now turns to Mohenjo-Daro. An ancient Indian civilization, it flourished for approximately two to three thousand years and was one of the most advanced civilizations on our planet. But the interesting fact turned up by archaeologists in the early 1900’s is the fact that it’s destruction was determined to be almost abrupt. The town was not only in ruins, but there was no geological evidence to support a natural disaster or even a meteoric impact. The highlights of the investigation are quoted as follows….
They found big stratums of clay and green glass. Apparently, archaeologists supposed, high temperature melted clay and sand and they hardened immediately afterwards. Similar stratums of green glass can also found in Nevada deserts after every nuclear explosion.
A hundred years have passed since the excavations in Mohenjo-Daro. The modern analysis showed, the fragments of the ancient town had been melted with extremely high temperature - not less than 1,500 degrees centigrade. Researchers also found the strictly outlined epicenter, where all houses were leveled. Destructions lessened towards the outskirts. Dozens of skeletons were found in the area of Mohenjo-Daro - their radioactivity exceeded the norm almost 50 times.[my emphasis
english.pravda.ru...
Radioactive skeletons, and a decreasing ratio of damage on all sides the further from the site we go all suggest heavily as empirical evidence towards a nuclear occurrence. But where are these skeletons and why do we hear very little regarding this site and its heavy handed implications? Simple, and that is the suppression of information for reasons I have explained earlier. Also, given the time period of the discovery of the site, it is relatively easy to keep this information as fairly centralized and away from the concerns of the uneducated and unexposed.
But back to the evidence, it is well understood that sand when exposed to an incredible heat source will turn into glass. Since there are no volcanoes in the vicinity and there is no evidence to support any other geological or otherwise ‘natural’ event to sustain stratums of glass, we‘re left with the seemingly unrealistic conclusion of a nuclear event in ancient India…….couple that with the radioactive skeletons and there is no other reasonable explanation.
Other references exist that lend extreme credibility to the advanced nature of ancient India. The excavation of Mohenjo-Daro is but one example, but it is a very important piece of the picture.
I shall now turn it back over to Off_The_Street…….
I would like to respond to my colleague Memory Shock’s points prior to presenting any arguments of my own.
First, Memory Shock proposes that, historically, there has been a division among humanity (and I am paraphrasing here, for brevity’s sake) between those who question their environment and those who do not; and furthermore (I am still paraphrasing) that evidence of a burgeoning technology will largely go unnoticed by the latter group.
I see several flaws here.
(1) I do not believe that (in humanity’s case) that there is a widespread difference between the “questioners” and the “accepters”; if such a clear-cut dichotomy exists, one of those traits would survival prone and would reproduce itself, and we’d all be “questioners”.
(2) Evolving technology is hard to conceal. If I among my band of hunter-gathers develop a sling, bow, or atlatl and excel in hunting, my fellow tribesmen will see and copy it. If I determine that dropping seeds in the ground and threshing them six months later provides me with plenty to eat, my tribesmen will do the same. If I smelt metal, they’ll watch and do it themselves.
People copy.
Technology expands, too. Gunpowder was unknown to half the world only by the sheer distance between China and Europe. Once Roger Bacon got hold of gunpowder, it spread like… well, like burning gunpowder! We can see the same spread of every technological implement or method, from flint-knapping to the atomic bomb.
To postulate secret and unknown-to-the-masses technology, you’d have to go counter to every bit of historical evidence we’ve managed to uncover so far, and you’d also have to assume that every person except for the Secret Scientists had the intelligence of a turnip.
And, of course, they don’t. If I’m not smart enough to think up a technological whizzbang, I’m probably smart enough to copy (or at the worst, steal) it.
Memory Shock says that
But society has not been stable over the long run! The Hittites developed an iron technology and beat up the Egyptians. Then everyone else gets iron and the Hittites went away. Rome comes up with concrete and the arch, and the “barbarians” use their secrets in their medieval cathedrals and castles.
So if there’s suppressed evidence, its very existence runs counter to history. And if evidence is suppressed, then it’s not evidence!
Now let’s look at Memory shock’s examples of evidence.
His first example is to take a quote attributed to Robert Oppenheimer (“Well - yes. In modern times, of course.” when asked by a student if Trinity was the first atomic bomb exploded) as evidence that Oppenheimer believed that there were prehistoric nuclear weapons.
I don’t think it follows, and, even if it did, what kind of evidence is that? Oppenheimer was a physicist, not an archaeologist or an historian; and even if he did have such training, there was no credible evidence for such prehistoric nuclear weapons then – nor is there now. As far as I can figure, Oppie was talking through his hat.
Memory Shock’s second example is of Mohenjo-Daro, taken from an article in Pravda. The article says that two scientists (whose names are spelled incorrectly, making it rather difficult to investigate their credentials) hypothesize that Mohenjo-Daro’s sudden demise was caused by a nuclear attack. However, an overview of serious literature provides us with several articles of interest:
“The Mythical Massacre at Mohenjo-daro”. Expedition. VI(3): 36-44. (1962)
“Harappan outposts on the Makran coast”. Antiquity. 36: 86-92. (1962)
“New investigations at Mohenjo-daro”. Archaeology. 18: 145-50. (1965
“Re-opening the Mohenjo-daro excavations.” Illustrated London News. 6565: 25- 7. (1965)
None of these mention increased levels of radiation. And a search via Google, and Yahoo! using the argument “mohenjo.daro harappan radioactivity” turned up many instances, but they all point to the Pravda article.
I do not, therefore, consider an article in a suspect tabloid to be evidence of anything, especially as there is no corroborating evidence available in any serious journal.
Finally, Memory Shock explains the lack of real evidence by saying:
No. I think I have explained that the entire concept of one portion of society keeping secrets over the years to be counter to every bit of history – and human nature – ever discovered.
Indeed, if I were to say that I am really the Long Lost King of France, I’d be asked for evidence. If I responded by saying that I can’t provide corroboration because of a plot to suppress the knowledge, that wouldn’t be evidence…
…It would be excuses.
First, Memory Shock proposes that, historically, there has been a division among humanity (and I am paraphrasing here, for brevity’s sake) between those who question their environment and those who do not; and furthermore (I am still paraphrasing) that evidence of a burgeoning technology will largely go unnoticed by the latter group.
I see several flaws here.
(1) I do not believe that (in humanity’s case) that there is a widespread difference between the “questioners” and the “accepters”; if such a clear-cut dichotomy exists, one of those traits would survival prone and would reproduce itself, and we’d all be “questioners”.
(2) Evolving technology is hard to conceal. If I among my band of hunter-gathers develop a sling, bow, or atlatl and excel in hunting, my fellow tribesmen will see and copy it. If I determine that dropping seeds in the ground and threshing them six months later provides me with plenty to eat, my tribesmen will do the same. If I smelt metal, they’ll watch and do it themselves.
People copy.
Technology expands, too. Gunpowder was unknown to half the world only by the sheer distance between China and Europe. Once Roger Bacon got hold of gunpowder, it spread like… well, like burning gunpowder! We can see the same spread of every technological implement or method, from flint-knapping to the atomic bomb.
To postulate secret and unknown-to-the-masses technology, you’d have to go counter to every bit of historical evidence we’ve managed to uncover so far, and you’d also have to assume that every person except for the Secret Scientists had the intelligence of a turnip.
And, of course, they don’t. If I’m not smart enough to think up a technological whizzbang, I’m probably smart enough to copy (or at the worst, steal) it.
Memory Shock says that
“…one of the most important aspects of a stable society, and inherently successful, is the status-quo and the suppression of evidence….”
But society has not been stable over the long run! The Hittites developed an iron technology and beat up the Egyptians. Then everyone else gets iron and the Hittites went away. Rome comes up with concrete and the arch, and the “barbarians” use their secrets in their medieval cathedrals and castles.
So if there’s suppressed evidence, its very existence runs counter to history. And if evidence is suppressed, then it’s not evidence!
Now let’s look at Memory shock’s examples of evidence.
His first example is to take a quote attributed to Robert Oppenheimer (“Well - yes. In modern times, of course.” when asked by a student if Trinity was the first atomic bomb exploded) as evidence that Oppenheimer believed that there were prehistoric nuclear weapons.
I don’t think it follows, and, even if it did, what kind of evidence is that? Oppenheimer was a physicist, not an archaeologist or an historian; and even if he did have such training, there was no credible evidence for such prehistoric nuclear weapons then – nor is there now. As far as I can figure, Oppie was talking through his hat.
Memory Shock’s second example is of Mohenjo-Daro, taken from an article in Pravda. The article says that two scientists (whose names are spelled incorrectly, making it rather difficult to investigate their credentials) hypothesize that Mohenjo-Daro’s sudden demise was caused by a nuclear attack. However, an overview of serious literature provides us with several articles of interest:
“The Mythical Massacre at Mohenjo-daro”. Expedition. VI(3): 36-44. (1962)
“Harappan outposts on the Makran coast”. Antiquity. 36: 86-92. (1962)
“New investigations at Mohenjo-daro”. Archaeology. 18: 145-50. (1965
“Re-opening the Mohenjo-daro excavations.” Illustrated London News. 6565: 25- 7. (1965)
None of these mention increased levels of radiation. And a search via Google, and Yahoo! using the argument “mohenjo.daro harappan radioactivity” turned up many instances, but they all point to the Pravda article.
I do not, therefore, consider an article in a suspect tabloid to be evidence of anything, especially as there is no corroborating evidence available in any serious journal.
Finally, Memory Shock explains the lack of real evidence by saying:
“…why do we hear very little regarding this site and its heavy handed implications? Simple, and that is the suppression of information for reasons I have explained earlier.”
No. I think I have explained that the entire concept of one portion of society keeping secrets over the years to be counter to every bit of history – and human nature – ever discovered.
Indeed, if I were to say that I am really the Long Lost King of France, I’d be asked for evidence. If I responded by saying that I can’t provide corroboration because of a plot to suppress the knowledge, that wouldn’t be evidence…
…It would be excuses.
Not an Excuse……but a Reason
I believe that my associate, Off_The_Street, mistakes what I was trying to explain with my sociological side bar. He paraphrases to this extent…
The main point I was describing was that information that is anomalous with the mainstream knowledge/ popular historical account is going to be easy to keep under wraps due to the fact that the common or average human isn’t going to have the background required to understand, as well as the provision of information to the citizens is going to be based on a need to know and functional(within societal parameters) basis.
The vast majority of people within a society are followers……it’s the nature of any society, someone who stands up and shouts, “I know the way,” with everyone else perking up their ears and listening…..not an eloquent way of stating it, but sufficient nonetheless.
Off_The_Street then states,
And I would like to emphasize over the long run. Historically every civilization that has ever been has either fluctuated heavily in its economic and political power, or met its distinct end. So when we are talking about the stability of a society, we are really speaking in relative terms, and that is the shelf life of the society and it’s goals being the binding of its subjects to a common and mutual end. Controlling or influencing the flow of information goes a long way in establishing this influence over the population.
And thus we have motive for the sometimes casual dismissal and at other times a complete omission of ideas and concepts that do not follow suit with the popular historical chronology. Such as an ancient, advanced civilization……..
Regarding Mohenjo-Daro, in addition to the fact that there isn’t a huge selection of material centering upon it, there isn’t many serious attempts to explain exactly what occurred to immediately end such a prominent civilization. In fact, Mohenjo-Daro means “Mound of the Dead.” A curious name given to a civilization that didn’t meet a very abrupt and certain end, which it in fact did. But not only is there no evidence to support a volcanic or meteoric finality, there is evidence of extreme heat. Fragments of thetown had been melted by an extreme temperature……at least 1,500 degrees. Further supporting a nuclear occurrence in India’s ancient past.
There are more than one areas of India that have radioactivity.....
www.pip.com.au...
The link goes on to say that there was a trend of birth defects in the area. The area has been cordoned off by the Indian government.
The fact that India has several regions with that have been observed at some time by someone to have radioactive associations lends a considerable amount of support to the ancient Sanskrit texts that describe an event that is commonly interpreted as nuclear in nature.
I believe that my associate, Off_The_Street, mistakes what I was trying to explain with my sociological side bar. He paraphrases to this extent…
[snip] that evidence of a burgeoning technology will largely go unnoticed by the latter group.
The main point I was describing was that information that is anomalous with the mainstream knowledge/ popular historical account is going to be easy to keep under wraps due to the fact that the common or average human isn’t going to have the background required to understand, as well as the provision of information to the citizens is going to be based on a need to know and functional(within societal parameters) basis.
The vast majority of people within a society are followers……it’s the nature of any society, someone who stands up and shouts, “I know the way,” with everyone else perking up their ears and listening…..not an eloquent way of stating it, but sufficient nonetheless.
Off_The_Street then states,
But society has not been stable over the long run!
And I would like to emphasize over the long run. Historically every civilization that has ever been has either fluctuated heavily in its economic and political power, or met its distinct end. So when we are talking about the stability of a society, we are really speaking in relative terms, and that is the shelf life of the society and it’s goals being the binding of its subjects to a common and mutual end. Controlling or influencing the flow of information goes a long way in establishing this influence over the population.
And thus we have motive for the sometimes casual dismissal and at other times a complete omission of ideas and concepts that do not follow suit with the popular historical chronology. Such as an ancient, advanced civilization……..
Regarding Mohenjo-Daro, in addition to the fact that there isn’t a huge selection of material centering upon it, there isn’t many serious attempts to explain exactly what occurred to immediately end such a prominent civilization. In fact, Mohenjo-Daro means “Mound of the Dead.” A curious name given to a civilization that didn’t meet a very abrupt and certain end, which it in fact did. But not only is there no evidence to support a volcanic or meteoric finality, there is evidence of extreme heat. Fragments of thetown had been melted by an extreme temperature……at least 1,500 degrees. Further supporting a nuclear occurrence in India’s ancient past.
There are more than one areas of India that have radioactivity.....
A heavy layer of radioactive ash in Rajasthan, India, covers a three-square mile area, ten miles west of Jodhpur. Scientists are investigating the site, where a housing development was being built.
www.pip.com.au...
The link goes on to say that there was a trend of birth defects in the area. The area has been cordoned off by the Indian government.
The fact that India has several regions with that have been observed at some time by someone to have radioactive associations lends a considerable amount of support to the ancient Sanskrit texts that describe an event that is commonly interpreted as nuclear in nature.
Gurkha,
flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled a single projectile
Charged with all the power of the Universe.
An incandescent column of smoke and flame
As bright as the thousand suns
Rose in all its splendour...
a perpendicular explosion
with its billowing smoke clouds...
...the cloud of smoke
rising after its first explosion
formed into expanding round circles
like the opening of giant parasols...
..it was an unknown weapon,
An iron thunderbolt,
A gigantic messenger of death,
Which reduced to ashes
The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
...The corpses were so burned
As to be unrecognizable. [snip]
Ancient verses from the Mahabharata
aolsearch.aol.com...
There is no other way to interpret this passage but as a reference to a nuclear occurrence.
To further apply credibility to the ancient texts, Dr. Ruth Reyna of the University of Chandrigarh has stated that some of the ancient texts are directions of advanced spacecraft.www.vigyanprasar.com...
And other aspects of the Mahabharata have been proven to be accurate and if some of it is true, then other assertions made by the Mahabharata cannot be immediately dismissed as false …….
Physical evidence that supports the Mahabharata
The importance of the discovery of Dwaraka[snip]
Thus the results have proved that the account in Mahabharata as to the existence of a beautiful capital city of Dwaraka of Sri Krishna was not a mere figment of imagination but it did exist.
www.atributetohinduism.com...
Please note that the quote coding for the above post is in error. There should be an endquote code after the lines from the Mahabatra. This
error might result in a small, but by no means insurmountable, degree of confusion for the debators or readers. We won't be editing the post
however, as it is generally clear who is saying what and as we don't permit nor encourage editing of responses. The debate continues.
My colleague returns to the Vimana mythos of India as evidence for a prehistoric high tech civilization; indeed, it is his only example. I will
respond further to the Vimana, but first I should like to respond to some other points that Memory Shock brings up.
He goes into detail regarding his assertions (with which I disagree) that the vast majority of people in a society are followers; that information contradictory to mainstream views is easy to keep under wraps; and some interesting ideas as to why certain things would be kept under wraps; he discusses with concern that there aren’t many serious attempts to explain exactly what happened to Mohenjo-daro.
These are fine subjects for a discussion, preferably over pizza and a couple pitchers of draft beer; but they have no bearing on this debate. As I see it, his job is to show that there is enough evidence to conclude that an ancient and hitherto-unknown civilization with a higher technology than our present one existed, and he is explaining why the evidence isn’t there.
Well, that’s something we can agree on: whether or not it ever existed, the evidence isn’t there.
Unfortunately, I see his response to the call for evidence as analogous to the lawyer telling the court that the blood-sample which would have proven his client’s innocence mysteriously disappeared from the evidence-room; or the student telling the teacher that the dog ate his homework.
Now let us re-examine the discussion of Mohenjo-Daro.
Memory Shock quotes a web-site called “The Groove” which repeats the story about radioactivity in an area of Rajasthan. My first intimation that this information is suspicious is a response by our esteemed colleague Byrd, who says, in response to the same comment:
Memory Shock goes on to quote from the Mahabharata text which describes a pilot named Gurkha destroying a city. Again, Byrd says:
I have followed Byrd’s links (replicated above), and I suggest you do too. I believe that Byrd’s comments, together with the fact that I have not seen reports of radiation anywhere else, including any learned journals, leads me to believe that the entire thing is a hoax.
As best I remember Byrd did not provide a link to the Mahabharata, but I found one. This is probably one of the best translations of the Mahabharata extant.
I haven not read every bit of it myself, but I have spent a couple of hours searching for the battle scene featuring Ghurka and his F-15 with the nuclear ALCM, and I have not found it.
I would certainly be interested if there were, in reality, such a passage in the Mahabharata; but even if there were, how can we say it is anything but a literary allusion?
He goes into detail regarding his assertions (with which I disagree) that the vast majority of people in a society are followers; that information contradictory to mainstream views is easy to keep under wraps; and some interesting ideas as to why certain things would be kept under wraps; he discusses with concern that there aren’t many serious attempts to explain exactly what happened to Mohenjo-daro.
These are fine subjects for a discussion, preferably over pizza and a couple pitchers of draft beer; but they have no bearing on this debate. As I see it, his job is to show that there is enough evidence to conclude that an ancient and hitherto-unknown civilization with a higher technology than our present one existed, and he is explaining why the evidence isn’t there.
Well, that’s something we can agree on: whether or not it ever existed, the evidence isn’t there.
Unfortunately, I see his response to the call for evidence as analogous to the lawyer telling the court that the blood-sample which would have proven his client’s innocence mysteriously disappeared from the evidence-room; or the student telling the teacher that the dog ate his homework.
Now let us re-examine the discussion of Mohenjo-Daro.
Memory Shock quotes a web-site called “The Groove” which repeats the story about radioactivity in an area of Rajasthan. My first intimation that this information is suspicious is a response by our esteemed colleague Byrd, who says, in response to the same comment:
No, it's not true.
The site is, in fact, a popular tourist destination:
www.rajasthantravelguide.com...
There're tons of photos all over the place, which would not be possible if the site had much radiation (it'd kill the film.) It's a very lively place, with wonderful archaeological sites and very old buildings. It's a crossroads for traders and there’re also a number of important religious festivals there. It's one of the great sacred sites in India:
www.tiscali.co.uk...
It does have two modern nuclear power plants, and is an important source for limestone and copper:
www.photius.com...
I'm not sure what the original story for this (frequently debunked) piece is, OR what the writers' motive is. It appears to be fairly modern and may be related to an inter-class war (blaming the Brahmans) www.dalitstan.org... -- given the heavy (and wrong) overtones of the piece. Or it might have been part of a screed against atomic power in its original form.
Memory Shock goes on to quote from the Mahabharata text which describes a pilot named Gurkha destroying a city. Again, Byrd says:
Interestingly enough, "The Mahabharata text" actually doesn't exist. You can go read The Mahabharata for yourself.
I have followed Byrd’s links (replicated above), and I suggest you do too. I believe that Byrd’s comments, together with the fact that I have not seen reports of radiation anywhere else, including any learned journals, leads me to believe that the entire thing is a hoax.
As best I remember Byrd did not provide a link to the Mahabharata, but I found one. This is probably one of the best translations of the Mahabharata extant.
I haven not read every bit of it myself, but I have spent a couple of hours searching for the battle scene featuring Ghurka and his F-15 with the nuclear ALCM, and I have not found it.
I would certainly be interested if there were, in reality, such a passage in the Mahabharata; but even if there were, how can we say it is anything but a literary allusion?
Everything To Do With The Debate
I believe that I would be remiss if I didn't give any attention to the fact that the evidence I am presenting isn't commonly held and isn't easily substantiated. These evidences are not supported by mainstream history .....the one in which mainly European, native or immigrated, are the sole creators and inventors of all the answers. And there is proof to the advantages of other cultures, from the Baghdad Battery to various other oopas(out of place artifacts) that point to past intelligence that is inconsistent with our current historical perception. Yet we hear mostly of scientific progress made only recently. The Antikytheria Device is an incredible example of ancient machinery, a gear driven mechanism that served to measure astronomical cycles and has been likened to an analogue computer......highly advanced for two thousand years ago, but not very known by many people. Thus we can conclude that the evolution of our knowledge has been misrepresented in favor of a more simplistic and linear definition that favors the state.
www.nordex.com...
Off_The_Street then goes on to quote Byrd regarding what appears to be an open shut debunking of the Rajasthan radiation site.......but upon closer look we see that the case isn't that easy.......
www.mapsofindia.com...
Rajasthan is about 132139 square miles...the radiated site is about three square miles. The pictures provided in the link provided by Byrd are in Jaipor(not shown on this map), the capitol, which is a considerable amount of distance from the radiated site. The nuclear power plant is even farther away, on the southeast border of Rajasthan Kota. The nearest city to the radiated site is Jodhpur and that is still 10 miles away.......enough of a distance for a layer of radiated ash to remain undiscovered until the cultivation of the land for housing development.......keep in mind that reports of health problems by individuals associated with the site corraborate the radiation.
The Delhi Iron Pillar
One of the metallurgical wonders of the world, it has stood for at least 1600 years, with more liberal estimates putting it's origin even earlier. The reason for it's historical relevance is that it has stood the test of time corrosion free. Recent scientific analysis has established that the most likely reason for the resisitance to rust is the phosphorous content that has been shown to be resulatant of the technique used in its creation. In Off_The_Streets opening arguement, we see that he stipulates the requirement of an advanced society to have a "long-life polymer or metal." The Delhi Iron Pillar satisifies this requirement.
en.wikipedia.org...
To even step a bit further in anticipation of my colleagues attempt to refute the implication of the pillar, the protection is resultant of the chemical properties produced from "the unique iron-making process practiced by ancient Indians," which produced a minute phosphuric content that has been shown to be responsible for the protective layer of misawite.
Spectroscopy In Ancient India
Key excerpts from the link, which was found on the Indian National Science Acadamy website....
www.insa.ac.in...
The Amsu Bodhini is an aspect of the Vedic literature.....and here we have an industry paper describing that they indeed followed the instructions provided by ancient texts to reproduce their understanding of spectrsocopy.
www.insa.ac.in...
Neurology isn't the stuff of arrowheads and brick huts. And that is just a minute representation of the Vedic literatures which have yet to even be completely decoded. If indeed, Ancient India had such an understanding of the complexities we take for granted as creations of our modern world, then what else have they accomplished and what else has flown underneath the radar of our perception?
And as discounting vedic literature literary allusion and various other interpretations that can be gained from literary study.....
Interestingly, Discerning and ingenius sages alluded to general realities by extracted explication Of The Semantical.......
Sometimes you just don't know what you're reading until you look at it differently.......
Originally posted by Off_The_Street
[snip]but they have no bearing on this debate.
I believe that I would be remiss if I didn't give any attention to the fact that the evidence I am presenting isn't commonly held and isn't easily substantiated. These evidences are not supported by mainstream history .....the one in which mainly European, native or immigrated, are the sole creators and inventors of all the answers. And there is proof to the advantages of other cultures, from the Baghdad Battery to various other oopas(out of place artifacts) that point to past intelligence that is inconsistent with our current historical perception. Yet we hear mostly of scientific progress made only recently. The Antikytheria Device is an incredible example of ancient machinery, a gear driven mechanism that served to measure astronomical cycles and has been likened to an analogue computer......highly advanced for two thousand years ago, but not very known by many people. Thus we can conclude that the evolution of our knowledge has been misrepresented in favor of a more simplistic and linear definition that favors the state.
www.nordex.com...
Off_The_Street then goes on to quote Byrd regarding what appears to be an open shut debunking of the Rajasthan radiation site.......but upon closer look we see that the case isn't that easy.......
www.mapsofindia.com...
Rajasthan is about 132139 square miles...the radiated site is about three square miles. The pictures provided in the link provided by Byrd are in Jaipor(not shown on this map), the capitol, which is a considerable amount of distance from the radiated site. The nuclear power plant is even farther away, on the southeast border of Rajasthan Kota. The nearest city to the radiated site is Jodhpur and that is still 10 miles away.......enough of a distance for a layer of radiated ash to remain undiscovered until the cultivation of the land for housing development.......keep in mind that reports of health problems by individuals associated with the site corraborate the radiation.
The Delhi Iron Pillar
One of the metallurgical wonders of the world, it has stood for at least 1600 years, with more liberal estimates putting it's origin even earlier. The reason for it's historical relevance is that it has stood the test of time corrosion free. Recent scientific analysis has established that the most likely reason for the resisitance to rust is the phosphorous content that has been shown to be resulatant of the technique used in its creation. In Off_The_Streets opening arguement, we see that he stipulates the requirement of an advanced society to have a "long-life polymer or metal." The Delhi Iron Pillar satisifies this requirement.
en.wikipedia.org...
To even step a bit further in anticipation of my colleagues attempt to refute the implication of the pillar, the protection is resultant of the chemical properties produced from "the unique iron-making process practiced by ancient Indians," which produced a minute phosphuric content that has been shown to be responsible for the protective layer of misawite.
Spectroscopy In Ancient India
Key excerpts from the link, which was found on the Indian National Science Acadamy website....
Dhvanta Pramapaka Yantra of Maharsi Bhardvaja (Spectrometer/Monochromator) has been described in Amsu Bodhini[snip]
The text of Amsu Bodhini further describes and enumerates various radiations(tama) with their symbolic names and their respective measures expressed in terms of an Ancient appropriate unit of angle kaksya (1 kaksya = 10 to the fourth decimal radian) My emphasis in bold
www.insa.ac.in...
The Amsu Bodhini is an aspect of the Vedic literature.....and here we have an industry paper describing that they indeed followed the instructions provided by ancient texts to reproduce their understanding of spectrsocopy.
An intelligent perusal of these ancient Yogic texts in original will bring a striking revelation to any student of neurology that the ancient Indians knew as much of neurology as we know today, and in the area of psychology they were far ahead of modern science
www.insa.ac.in...
Neurology isn't the stuff of arrowheads and brick huts. And that is just a minute representation of the Vedic literatures which have yet to even be completely decoded. If indeed, Ancient India had such an understanding of the complexities we take for granted as creations of our modern world, then what else have they accomplished and what else has flown underneath the radar of our perception?
And as discounting vedic literature literary allusion and various other interpretations that can be gained from literary study.....
Interestingly, Discerning and ingenius sages alluded to general realities by extracted explication Of The Semantical.......
Sometimes you just don't know what you're reading until you look at it differently.......
My colleague Memory Shock mentions several devices in addition to the disputed Vimanas as evidence of a high tech civilization. Let me respond to
them, before returning to the Vimana mythos.
He introduces the “Baghdad Battery”, a device suggesting a primitive electrical cell, found in what is now Iraq. Such a device does exist and I agree that it could well have been built to provide an electrical current. However, even the most accepting researchers examining it believe if it were an electrical battery, it was probably used to electroplate metal; there is no evidence (or written records) of any loads for the cell, e.g., lights or motors.
This is a tremendous find, equivalent to Heron’s steam engine several hundred years later. But it just shows how a non-technological, non-industrialized culture could, by trial and error, come up with some remarkable electromechanical devices.
The Antikytheria device, am ancient Greek clockwork mechanism found recently, is also a stunning tour de force for a non-technological, non-industrialized culture. Memory Shock says it has “…been likened to an analog computer.” Likened? It is an analog computer! But so is an abacus.
But that’s all it is.
Memory Shock says that, because there has not been an incredible hue and cry about either of these devices, “…we can conclude that the evolution of our knowledge has been misrepresented in favor of a more simplistic and linear definition that favors the state.”
That’s not true at all. Some of these devices are only now coming to life, and, as we find out more about the techniques and lives of the pre-technological and pre-industrial cultures, we will continue to be surprised—just as here in Mesa, Arizona when we found, a hundred fifty years ago, that the Hohokam culture had dug canals in the same desert locations we have our modern ones.
Science learns new things all the time. There’s no plot co conceal anything.
Remember, just because modern science rejects the idea of a lost high-tech civilization, it does not mean that we consider our ancestors ignoramuses. They were not. The technology to develop and operate a trireme or build the Parthenon shows that! But high-tech – especially the high tech in advance of our own culture today -- is an insurmountable distance past anything found in the ancient world.
Now let me turn, once again, to the issue of “Vimanas” in ancient India. Memory Shock seems to consider the existence of a three-square-mile radiated area as key in his assertion that ancient India possessed an air force and nuclear technologies in advance of the US Air Force Strategic Air Command.
In particular, he shows, via his map above, that the area of purported radiation is quite a distance from the Rajasthan nuclear power plant’s reactor. Well and good.
But I believe that Byrd’s point (and mine as well) is not that the radiated area can be traced to a particular power plant, but whether the radiated area exists at all. Remember, the only quote I can see is from a conspiracy website called “The Groove” where it is printed without any further details.
So as I see it, the “evidence” is becoming weaker and weaker.
First, we have nothing in our hands that even hints at an ancient lost high-technology in advance of our own.
Second, we still have no independent quotations that the story purportedly taken from the Mahabharata even exists; I had provided a link to it, said I could not find the tale in question, and invited Memory Shock to review it – to no avail.
Third, the only remaining “bone of contention” seems to be a purported patch of irradiated ground in Rajasthan. Yet, where is the verification of this? Where in any scientific media do we see any report of an anomalous radiation? Don’t you think that if there were a high-radiation area it would’ve been the subject of literally thousands of articles in Scientific American, and professional and scholarly journals?
I want to finish this post with a personal story.
In April of 2001, I visited a city, which, sadly, needs no introduction.
I stood near a river with cherry trees in bloom, laughing kids, a few tourists, and a small monument to a day when a real “Vimana”, piloted by Colonel Paul Tibbets of the US Army Air Force, “…sent a gigantic messenger of death, Which reduced to ashes The entire city. The corpses were so burned As to be unrecognizable.”
This horrific attack, reducing twenty thousand citizens of Hiroshima to carbonized lumps and one American engineer to helpless tears, happened when I was nine months old – and all the radiation had gone.
And yet we’re expected to believe that radiation from an attack 8000 years is still measurable and killing people?
I think not.
He introduces the “Baghdad Battery”, a device suggesting a primitive electrical cell, found in what is now Iraq. Such a device does exist and I agree that it could well have been built to provide an electrical current. However, even the most accepting researchers examining it believe if it were an electrical battery, it was probably used to electroplate metal; there is no evidence (or written records) of any loads for the cell, e.g., lights or motors.
This is a tremendous find, equivalent to Heron’s steam engine several hundred years later. But it just shows how a non-technological, non-industrialized culture could, by trial and error, come up with some remarkable electromechanical devices.
The Antikytheria device, am ancient Greek clockwork mechanism found recently, is also a stunning tour de force for a non-technological, non-industrialized culture. Memory Shock says it has “…been likened to an analog computer.” Likened? It is an analog computer! But so is an abacus.
But that’s all it is.
Memory Shock says that, because there has not been an incredible hue and cry about either of these devices, “…we can conclude that the evolution of our knowledge has been misrepresented in favor of a more simplistic and linear definition that favors the state.”
That’s not true at all. Some of these devices are only now coming to life, and, as we find out more about the techniques and lives of the pre-technological and pre-industrial cultures, we will continue to be surprised—just as here in Mesa, Arizona when we found, a hundred fifty years ago, that the Hohokam culture had dug canals in the same desert locations we have our modern ones.
Science learns new things all the time. There’s no plot co conceal anything.
Remember, just because modern science rejects the idea of a lost high-tech civilization, it does not mean that we consider our ancestors ignoramuses. They were not. The technology to develop and operate a trireme or build the Parthenon shows that! But high-tech – especially the high tech in advance of our own culture today -- is an insurmountable distance past anything found in the ancient world.
Now let me turn, once again, to the issue of “Vimanas” in ancient India. Memory Shock seems to consider the existence of a three-square-mile radiated area as key in his assertion that ancient India possessed an air force and nuclear technologies in advance of the US Air Force Strategic Air Command.
In particular, he shows, via his map above, that the area of purported radiation is quite a distance from the Rajasthan nuclear power plant’s reactor. Well and good.
But I believe that Byrd’s point (and mine as well) is not that the radiated area can be traced to a particular power plant, but whether the radiated area exists at all. Remember, the only quote I can see is from a conspiracy website called “The Groove” where it is printed without any further details.
So as I see it, the “evidence” is becoming weaker and weaker.
First, we have nothing in our hands that even hints at an ancient lost high-technology in advance of our own.
Second, we still have no independent quotations that the story purportedly taken from the Mahabharata even exists; I had provided a link to it, said I could not find the tale in question, and invited Memory Shock to review it – to no avail.
Third, the only remaining “bone of contention” seems to be a purported patch of irradiated ground in Rajasthan. Yet, where is the verification of this? Where in any scientific media do we see any report of an anomalous radiation? Don’t you think that if there were a high-radiation area it would’ve been the subject of literally thousands of articles in Scientific American, and professional and scholarly journals?
I want to finish this post with a personal story.
In April of 2001, I visited a city, which, sadly, needs no introduction.
I stood near a river with cherry trees in bloom, laughing kids, a few tourists, and a small monument to a day when a real “Vimana”, piloted by Colonel Paul Tibbets of the US Army Air Force, “…sent a gigantic messenger of death, Which reduced to ashes The entire city. The corpses were so burned As to be unrecognizable.”
This horrific attack, reducing twenty thousand citizens of Hiroshima to carbonized lumps and one American engineer to helpless tears, happened when I was nine months old – and all the radiation had gone.
And yet we’re expected to believe that radiation from an attack 8000 years is still measurable and killing people?
I think not.
Evidence vs. Proof
My associate seems to have interpreted my inclusion of the Baghdad Battery and the Antikytheria Device as 'proof' where I was merely illustrating how the widely accepted mythos of our history are way off base.....we see them today as scientific anomalies when in fact they are indications of how advanced our ancestors were......
Hence, my attention to the tendency of information purveyance in our current reality. Such a statement is akin to concluding that there was no abuse due to the lack of bruising........there is no obvious and heralded evidence, so it must follow that it is impossible.....even inconcievable.
That is a fallacy in an of itself.
The Many Indications
I have shown a wide range of evidences.....from the story that gets repeated many a time, and is likely to be based on hyperbole, to a seemingly unimpressive 25 foot tall iron pole that just happens to be a specific evidence of how 'they did it better.'
The 'Mahabharata story of Gurkha' needs no other corroboration than the fact that it has been told over and over again. That in and of itself is worthy of attention. The very fact that the story is told often is one form of evidence........
www.m-w.com...
......it is an indication. And if we follow the definition of evidence, we see that the world is brimming with indications and signs. The indication provided by the story leads to further investigation....which is the purpose of evidence.
And the investigation led to many other indications....including a recent report that alleged a bit of land in Rajasthan had been found to contain radiated ash....and other reports that described stratums of glass in Mohenjo-Daro that possibly were produced from a nuclear blast of yore.....there is no other source of heat for such a reaction to have occurred there. The key word is clearly possibly......but that is what evidence is......a suggestion to the possibility.
These are still stronger indications of an advanced technology to have been existant before our time. Indeed, they are intriguing details that implore further the need for an investigation........and it just gets better and better....rather than weaker, as my opponent stated.....
Better in the form of modern day scholars decoding the ancient vedic literature......written in sanskrit and is a scientific compilation that I have shown above, with only two aspects of the sciences. The Vedics are not transcribed by a so called channeler with stories, as some claim regarding the Vymanika Shastra, but detailed renditions of scientific principles.....and not completely decoded yet.......which, evidently, suggests that the Ancient Indians were, in fact, a highly advanced society.
My associate seems to have interpreted my inclusion of the Baghdad Battery and the Antikytheria Device as 'proof' where I was merely illustrating how the widely accepted mythos of our history are way off base.....we see them today as scientific anomalies when in fact they are indications of how advanced our ancestors were......
Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Don't you think that if there were a high-radiation area it would've been the subject of literally thousands of articles in Scientific American.......
Hence, my attention to the tendency of information purveyance in our current reality. Such a statement is akin to concluding that there was no abuse due to the lack of bruising........there is no obvious and heralded evidence, so it must follow that it is impossible.....even inconcievable.
That is a fallacy in an of itself.
The Many Indications
I have shown a wide range of evidences.....from the story that gets repeated many a time, and is likely to be based on hyperbole, to a seemingly unimpressive 25 foot tall iron pole that just happens to be a specific evidence of how 'they did it better.'
The 'Mahabharata story of Gurkha' needs no other corroboration than the fact that it has been told over and over again. That in and of itself is worthy of attention. The very fact that the story is told often is one form of evidence........
Source: Merriam-Webster
1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof [snip]
2 : one who bears witness[snip]
www.m-w.com...
......it is an indication. And if we follow the definition of evidence, we see that the world is brimming with indications and signs. The indication provided by the story leads to further investigation....which is the purpose of evidence.
And the investigation led to many other indications....including a recent report that alleged a bit of land in Rajasthan had been found to contain radiated ash....and other reports that described stratums of glass in Mohenjo-Daro that possibly were produced from a nuclear blast of yore.....there is no other source of heat for such a reaction to have occurred there. The key word is clearly possibly......but that is what evidence is......a suggestion to the possibility.
These are still stronger indications of an advanced technology to have been existant before our time. Indeed, they are intriguing details that implore further the need for an investigation........and it just gets better and better....rather than weaker, as my opponent stated.....
Better in the form of modern day scholars decoding the ancient vedic literature......written in sanskrit and is a scientific compilation that I have shown above, with only two aspects of the sciences. The Vedics are not transcribed by a so called channeler with stories, as some claim regarding the Vymanika Shastra, but detailed renditions of scientific principles.....and not completely decoded yet.......which, evidently, suggests that the Ancient Indians were, in fact, a highly advanced society.
Let’s recall the topic thesis:]
"There is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that ancient societies had technology far in advance of today's."
Throughout these exchanges, my colleague has presented many ideas and data. Some of them are fascinating and deserve more detailed discussion – but they’re not evidence.
He says that the comment – “there is no obvious and heralded evidence, so it must follow that it is impossible.....even inconceivable.” – is a fallacy in and of itself.
True. But what I did intimate is:
“there is no obvious and heralded evidence, so it must follow that … there is no evidence.”
He claims as “…a wide range of evidences…a story that gets repeated many a time, and is likely to be based on hyperbole, to a seemingly unimpressive 25 foot tall pole that just happens to be a specific evidence of how ‘they did it better’.”
Yet if that’s “evidence”, it’s circumstantial at best, hardly sufficient to demonstrate ancient high technology. The tales of Noah and Gilgamesh are interesting, but it took the work of geologists and archaeologists to show the huge flood ca.5600 BC. That was the evidence!
His non-rusting iron pole is evidence that ancients knew some good metallurgy, but that doesn’t translate into “technology far in advance of today's.”
He says: ”The 'Mahabharata story of Gurkha' needs no other corroboration than the fact that it has been told over and over again… that the story is told often is one form of evidence.”
The “Gurkha” tale has been told, all right – but only on the Internet, and not in any version of the Mahabharata that anyone here can identify.
His valiantly puts forth his data as evidence, but they simply aren’t. Quoting Memory Shock:
[i]” including a recent report that alleged a bit of land in Rajasthan had been found to contain radiated ash….”
Again, a report found only in one place, a conspiracy website without any citation.
“ stratums of glass in Mohenjo-Daro that possibly were produced from a nuclear blast….”
Again, no citations; it is far more likely that the glass, if it exists, was produced at the time of the Deccan Traps activities in the late Cretaceous; the biggest volcanic eruptions known to science.
”...details that implore further the need for an investigation.”
I agree. We need to do more investigation into this fascinating field, and someday we may be able to say that we have real evidence.
Not translations of texts which cannot be found.
Not ancient artifacts which are really clever and inspired technology but not anywhere near ours today.
But real evidence; something we can hold in our hand and say, “Look!” Remains of a motor or a circuit board or a spaceship or buildings or even reinforced concrete.
Now that would be evidence!
But until we have something other than mystical stories and mis-translations, we must conclude that when it comes to the possibility of an ancient society with technology far in advance of today's, the evidence for simply is not there.
"There is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that ancient societies had technology far in advance of today's."
Throughout these exchanges, my colleague has presented many ideas and data. Some of them are fascinating and deserve more detailed discussion – but they’re not evidence.
He says that the comment – “there is no obvious and heralded evidence, so it must follow that it is impossible.....even inconceivable.” – is a fallacy in and of itself.
True. But what I did intimate is:
“there is no obvious and heralded evidence, so it must follow that … there is no evidence.”
He claims as “…a wide range of evidences…a story that gets repeated many a time, and is likely to be based on hyperbole, to a seemingly unimpressive 25 foot tall pole that just happens to be a specific evidence of how ‘they did it better’.”
Yet if that’s “evidence”, it’s circumstantial at best, hardly sufficient to demonstrate ancient high technology. The tales of Noah and Gilgamesh are interesting, but it took the work of geologists and archaeologists to show the huge flood ca.5600 BC. That was the evidence!
His non-rusting iron pole is evidence that ancients knew some good metallurgy, but that doesn’t translate into “technology far in advance of today's.”
He says: ”The 'Mahabharata story of Gurkha' needs no other corroboration than the fact that it has been told over and over again… that the story is told often is one form of evidence.”
The “Gurkha” tale has been told, all right – but only on the Internet, and not in any version of the Mahabharata that anyone here can identify.
His valiantly puts forth his data as evidence, but they simply aren’t. Quoting Memory Shock:
[i]” including a recent report that alleged a bit of land in Rajasthan had been found to contain radiated ash….”
Again, a report found only in one place, a conspiracy website without any citation.
“ stratums of glass in Mohenjo-Daro that possibly were produced from a nuclear blast….”
Again, no citations; it is far more likely that the glass, if it exists, was produced at the time of the Deccan Traps activities in the late Cretaceous; the biggest volcanic eruptions known to science.
”...details that implore further the need for an investigation.”
I agree. We need to do more investigation into this fascinating field, and someday we may be able to say that we have real evidence.
Not translations of texts which cannot be found.
Not ancient artifacts which are really clever and inspired technology but not anywhere near ours today.
But real evidence; something we can hold in our hand and say, “Look!” Remains of a motor or a circuit board or a spaceship or buildings or even reinforced concrete.
Now that would be evidence!
But until we have something other than mystical stories and mis-translations, we must conclude that when it comes to the possibility of an ancient society with technology far in advance of today's, the evidence for simply is not there.
Excellent job on both sides gentlemen. The judgement period will now begin.
Off_the_Street has won by a large margin. Congratulations to both posters for making excellent and cogent arguements. Most judges had tough
decision to make. Some of their comments:
Off_the_Street advances to Round 3.
Two heavyweights going at it here! What a pleasure to read!
I was undecided until Off_The_Street's closing post with his emphasis on the words "far in advance of today's".
memoryshock made a good arguement
An interesting debate, both sides presenting good arguments and in particular brilliant counter arguments which I think really made this debate a treasure to read.
Fascinating topic, and well-presented by both sides. Memoryshock's thesis on societies and their control and perception of technology was an excellent foundation for a difficult position and a brilliant debate tactic in its own right. Off_the_Street immediately countered, insisting on evidence of widespread technological adaptation, and so began an excellent debate. Ultimately, I felt Off_The_Street scored the win by making the point that Memoryshock had not established that there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that ancient societies had technology far in advance of today's, and that was, after all, the topic of the debate.
This is a difficult topic for the one defending the proposition. MemoryShock argued the side he was given well, but questionable sources and evidence showed how he was struggling with the topic. Off_The_Street handled his topic very well, was clear and concise in his arguments and followed through, driving his point home.
Off_the_Street advances to Round 3.
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