EU about to punish Germany

Originally posted by Lonestar24

Also, we have sold Poland 128 Leopard 2 tanks at a bargain price. Remember that Leopard 2 is the best tank in the world.

And what exactly has this to do with the thread? This deal was signed in April 2002, so it was before Poland became part of the EU. Apart from that these were decades-old Leopard 2A4 tanks that were planned to be sold at a
cheap price.

they were BY FAR underpriced, other customers were even pretty pissed for this, and why do you call the A4 old

Leopard 2 A4
1985 5. Baulos(1. A4 baulos) (370) mit digitalem Feuerleitrechner und Brandunterdrückungsanlage. Alle älteren Baumuster werden auf A4 nachgerüstet.

1987 6. Baulos (150); die Hälfte davon mit verbesserter Panzerung (Änderung nicht sichtbar). Munitionsluke am Turm entfallen. Die Munitionsluken der älteren Baumuster wurden zugeschweißt.

1989 7. (100) und 8. Baulos (75)

in comparsion:

The first M1 tank was produced in 1978, the M1A1 in 1985 and the M1A2 in 1986.

So the M1A2 is on the state of the A4 by time.




So why do you "talk it small"(kleinreden), as we say here

another thing was the selling of Mig-29's for 1 euro, it was agreed, that they will get modernized by german companys, but then poland did let them modernize by polish companys, german state doesnt say anything as this would cause trouble on interior european politics.

I am not "talking small" anything. I asked for the relevance to this thread. If the tanks are sold for less than their market value, then the german ministry of defense is to be blamed, and not the poles as was done suggestively.

And your little link actually undermines my statement: isnt 1985 for first production "decades old"? In my calendar that is 20 years. And since all previous Leopard 2 models were brought up the A4 standard, that means there are also some Leo2A4´s originating from 1979. Your comparison with the M1A2 is irrelevant, especially since the actual model is the M1A2 SEP.

Could we please stop getting off topic, this is the politics forum. And didnt you announce that I am "officially ignored by you" recently?

[edit on 15/7/2005 by Lonestar24]

Originally posted by AtheiX
Now to all non-German Europeans:
You better respect us Germans. By expelling us out of the EU or causing us to leave the EU you will only make us stronger.
[edit on 14-7-2005 by AtheiX]

Dude, relax. There is no EU-conspiracy against Germany. It's just the consequence of a treaty your country agreed upon for the good of the nation. This punishment is motivation to investigate the budget. Where does the money go to? If your government budget is "public knowledge", you really should have a look at it. I've been looking into the Belgian budget lately, and I was embaressed to say the least. There have been made a lot of mistakes, especially in the defense department. Man, some people know how to fill their pockets....and get away with it too. Don't blame the EU, it's one of the best things that hapenned to Germany. At least untill they expanded it, and now the Turks want in. (BTW: You heard the news about the tukish foreign minister? He said in an interview that the EU should allow the Turks to prove they weren't a christian-only club. But that's just off-topic.)

This punishment is motivation to investigate the budget.

the punishment doesnt matter much, the problem is more what we all have to pay at all!

Originally posted by CrazyOrange

There is no EU-conspiracy against Germany.

Yes, there is. This conspiracy is Poland and its allies, who want to bring Germany down. Poland gets a lot of money from the EU budget (by far more that it deserves), wants reparations from us while they have already received them, assured itself premier power by the power of the EU constitution and conducts tax dumping.

Poland needs that money. The EU needs Poland to have that money. By improving the way of life in Eastern Europe we can lower the presure on our economies. I too find this latest expansion the worst thing they could have done. But it happened, we can't change it anymore without making enemies that won't forgive untill they hang us.

The fact remains that making their lives better helpes us. So what if Poland wants germany to pay off their 'debt'. Then vote in politicians that have the balls to say: "No! Our nation has a bad history, but we shall not pay for it untill eternity. We are in a position that, what has happened, can not happen again. It has been enough!". Your government keeps handing out goodies to everyone that makes them feel guilty. Don't blame the EU, blame your administration.

Originally posted by CrazyOrange
Poland needs that money. The EU needs Poland to have that money. By improving the way of life in Eastern Europe we can lower the presure on our economies.

CRAP

proves you know *****

the eastern european nations use the money, to lower their own taxes for employers, so more western companys leave as its cheaper there.

I too find this latest expansion the worst thing they could have done. But it happened, we can't change it anymore without making enemies that won't forgive untill they hang us.

Making enemies? So what?

The fact remains that making their lives better helpes us. So what if Poland wants germany to pay off their 'debt'. Then vote in politicians that have the balls to say: "No! Our nation has a bad history, but we shall not pay for it untill eternity. We are in a position that, what has happened, can not happen again. It has been enough!".

the only party that says this is the nationalist party, our state wants to banish them.

edited out profanity

[edit on 22-7-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

Hmmm it seems to me this is a real re-hashing of old arguements.
Change the country names and we had this all before a while back.

It's the usual complaint about the wealth transfers between 'the EU haves' and 'the EU have nots'.

There used to be planty of this kind of bitterness between the UK and Ireland.

But that is the point of the 'structural funds'. They go to the least well off to raise standards there until they, like Ireland now is about to, become 'net contributors' to the benefit of all.

It has nothing to do with any 'punishment' for breaching the fiscal rules Germany (like others) agreed to, that is an entirely separate thing altogether.

The eastern European countries new to the EU are not using EU funds to reduce their taxes to unfairly compete with the established EU countries, they simply have lower costs due to the lower wages and conditions etc that already existed there anyways......lower costs people like the German VW-Audi-Group have been only to happy to exploit with investment to take advantage of those lower costs, right?

This is really a re-tread of the old arguements that preceeded what were seen as 'poor places' like Greece (1981) and Portugal (1986) joining the EU. We were all once told how they'd just bankrupt everyone that actually had any wealth in the EU, they'd just wreck it all and never end up contributing anything.
How wrong can you be, huh?
Maybe you guys are too young to remember all this stuff from back then, huh?

The fact is it does take time and it can appear to impose 'costs' some would rather not bear but who can doubt that for all that the EU countries are much better off so far?

So why on earth must the recent expansion be seen as a burden rather then the opportunity for even further advancement it actually does represent?

People whos' 'vision' for Europe consists of nothing less than a latently hostile retreat into our shells offer us nothing but, let's be honest, ultimately a sterile and pointless return to the baddest of bad old ways.

Compared to what we once were (not so long ago) Europe is a marvel today, how some people are so blind to this as to think that is not worth persuing and nurturing is beyond me.

Originally posted by CrazyOrange
Poland needs that money.

No, it doesn't. They conduct tax dumping and as a result companies move there. Apart from that, they already received much money.

Originally posted by CrazyOrange
By improving the way of life in Eastern Europe we can lower the presure on our economies.

No, they will still want our money. They are greedy.

Originally posted by CrazyOrange
The fact remains that making their lives better helpes us. So what if Poland wants germany to pay off their 'debt'. Then vote in politicians that have the balls to say: "No! Our nation has a bad history, but we shall not pay for it untill eternity. We are in a position that, what has happened, can not happen again. It has been enough!"

We don't have any debt to them. We have sold them the best tanks in the world at low prices and we have paid them reparations, in exchange for which they let 125,000 of our citizens out so that they could return to Germany.

Originally posted by AtheiX
No, it doesn't. They conduct tax dumping and as a result companies move there. Apart from that, they already received much money.

This would mean that they would recieve large fines from the EU. Country's have to sign treaty's to be able to recieve money. Those treaty's also say how that money should be spent.

No, they will still want our money. They are greedy.

This will not happen in a year. It will at least take a decade for their economies to catch up. When that happens we will start looking for new poor country's. A lot of european (and german is in europe) company's benefit a lot with the expansion of the free-trade zone. Other company's benefit because the wages in those country will FINALLY go up, making competion easier.

We don't have any debt to them. We have sold them the best tanks in the world at low prices and we have paid them reparations, in exchange for which they let 125,000 of our citizens out so that they could return to Germany.

Did I say you were in debt? No, I didn't. I said you should make your point in the coming elections and vote in politicians that say: "NO, IT HAS BEEN ENOUGH." But you just twist my words.

"NO, IT HAS BEEN ENOUGH." But you just twist my words.

as I said, just nazi party says this.. and this party will be propably outlawed soon if it gets too much voters...

(to clarify it:
1. I am against outlawing partys at all
2. I am not for this party generally
3. The problem is, that no normal party is enough for german interests, ... well at least CDU/CSU is a bit for german interests, but still they dont care enough for it..)

[edit on 23-7-2005 by Wodan]

Originally posted by AtheiX

Mr Eichel warned Germany's finances were looking gloomy
Germany looks set to face disciplinary proceedings after warning it is likely to break European Union (EU) budget deficit limits for another year.

Link to the article: news.bbc.co.uk...

So we Germans have financial problems, and the EU is going to punish us.

I think that we Germans should exit the EU.

Well, you shouldn't break EU rules.

I've noticed how swiftly France and Germany punish any other country that breaks the budget deficit limits.

Originally posted by Lonestar24

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
Laughing my socks off at the plight of the Gerries and Frogs who wanting to make the EU a political entity instead of a trading one , have come a cropper with there introduction of the Euro . Anyone dealing in Euros i think your doomed as the mark and the franc will be back. Glad Britain kept the pound .

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
No way is Europe going to be one state, the Euro is a dead duck currency , if you want to trade in Euros then i think you will loose out , stick to the pound sterling thats guaranteed.

I think your view of Europe is a bit twisted between your romantic favour of the pound sterling and dreams of "Rule Britannia". Regarding the EU as a separate entity aside from mere treaties is nothing like creating a single european country. Nobody pushes into that direction. The EU is way above a simple trade treaty arrangement even now.

Your one-liner disregard of the Euro that you showed in other threads as well is somewhat contrary to reality. Just because the UK has a somewhat laid-back approach to EU responsibility that doesnt prove the whole organization useless.

[edit on 4/7/2005 by Lonestar24]

A "romantic" view of the pound sterling? Us keeping the pound has made us prosperous, unlike the countries that have the Euro.

Yeah, the Euro is fantastic" if you want a stagnant economy with 12% unemployment, have the Euro.

.......and when it starts to hurt the British standard of living compared to our EU partners will you still be so pleased?

If British jobs start to be lost because large companies want to be within the Euro-zone, what then, hmmmmmm?

It's strange you should say that, because who is prospering at the minute? is it Britain with the pound, or is it the countries that have the Euro? Britain isn't the one with high unemployment and low growth. Our GDP per capita and PPP has now overtaken France and Germany, and our Foreign Direct Investment tripled last year, whereas it declined it France and Germany.

Yeah, Britain is being damaged economically by not having the Euro!

It's Britain that's prospering, not Continental Europe.


[edit on 29-7-2005 by AdamB]

Originally posted by AdamB
It's strange you should say that, because who is prospering at the minute? is it Britain with the pound, or is it the countries that have the Euro? Britain isn't the one with high unemployment and low growth.

- As said before you aren't comparing like with like.
Euro growth may be lower than the UK's (but it's not quite the same picture when 'real growth' is considered) and unemployment may appear higher (but then 'they' don't count things the same way) but in any case this reflects some of the initial difficulties.

Just as the UK suffered initially when introducing the decimal currency here so it is with the Euro and equally it does not alter the benefits that will undoubtedly follow from the reduced costs it gives to those using it.

Our GDP per capita and PPP has now overtaken France and Germany, and our Foreign Direct Investment tripled last year, whereas it declined it France and Germany.

- You can play with the stats all you like but the Euro economy is larger than the UK's.

Yeah, Britain is being damaged economically by not having the Euro!

- Britain has been careful not to rule out joining the Euro, and for good reason.
Many large businesses have made it clear that they will relocate to the Euro zone if Britain were to rule out joining ever.

It's Britain that's prospering, not Continental Europe.

- I suggest you look beyond a recent handful of 'good years' and consider the longer term......just as their handful of bad years hardly paints the entire picture either.
If you think the UK's record over several decades compares well I suggest you are fooling yourself.

Yes the Poles!
They'll take over the whole of the European Union.
All 36,983,700(2002 Census) will take over all of the European Union.

Anyone else think of other German people who don't like the Polish?

Originally posted by AdamB


Well, you shouldn't break EU rules.

I've noticed how swiftly France and Germany punish any other country that breaks the budget deficit limits.

You don't understand.

My point is that we Germans should not have to abide by any rules!

My point is that Germany should be independent (I mean, exitting the EU)!

My point is that we Germans should not have to abide by any rules!

Hmmm......Me thinks I have heard this kind of rhetoric before.

Fine, let germany pull out of the EU and Euro. You'll wish you hadn't. 12% Unemployment bad? Wait until you are on your own and watch it triple.

The economic damage that pulling out of the EU would cause Germany would be unbearable, making the 20's and 30'2 look like prosperous times.

Why is it that you always get a few malcontent nationalists that fail to see what benefits the EU actually brings compared to life without the EU?

Bulldog, I expected those very comments from you. After your display of a complete lack of knowledge for anything that isn't printed (incorrectly) in the Sun, I would be ill-advised to listen to your views on something as complex as the EU.

Originally posted by stumason

Fine, let germany pull out of the EU and Euro. You'll wish you hadn't. 12% Unemployment bad? Wait until you are on your own and watch it triple.

If Germany pulls out of the EU, it will dpo only good for Germany.

Originally posted by stumason
The economic damage that pulling out of the EU would cause Germany would be unbearable, making the 20's and 30'2 look like prosperous times.

If Germany pulls out of the EU, it will do only good for Germany.
If Germany pulls out of the EU, then:
- Poland won't be able to conduct its tax dumping against us anymore because we will not be a member of the EU.
- We will not have to pay any money to the EU budget.
- We will not have to pay any money as punishment.
- The cheap employees from the East will not be able to immigrate, so unemployment will drop.

Originally posted by stumason
Why is it that you always get a few malcontent nationalists

I am not a nationalist, I am a deutschnational. There is a difference.

Originally posted by stumason
that fail to see what benefits the EU actually brings compared to life without the EU?

It is YOU who fails to see that, not me.

Originally posted by stumason
After your display of a complete lack of knowledge for anything that isn't printed (incorrectly) in the Sun, I would be ill-advised to listen to your views on something as complex as the EU.

It is YOU who displays a complete lack of knowledge for anything that isn't printed in the Sun.

If Germany pulls out of the EU, it will dpo only good for Germany.

Hahaha..And you base this wonderful economic plan on what?

Without the EU, trade and immigration barriers will go up, incurring costs on the German economy which will make it uncompetative with the remainder of the EU and Global market.

Why?

Because you will have to employ German Nationals, who will demand a higher wage, to do the same job that an eastern immigrant would do for less.

Also, Germans would be forced into menial jobs that they would have perhaps avoided doing and been happy for the Eastern guys to do, such as catering and cleaning.

All these would push up costs for any company operating within Germany, as the germans would naturally expect to retain their current standard of living. Increased costs would lead to decreased profits, job cuts and rationalistion and an eventual slump in the economy and a return to high-unemployment, which woyld exasperate the situation worse by placing a higher burden on the German welfare budget to cater for those that need social support.

Unfortunateley, any country that tries to protect its own economy by excluding or restricting another, especially one that is larger and is surrounding you on all sides, would only harm you and increase isolation. This in turn would lead to an economic collapse.

The only way germany could survive outside the EU, would be if it continued to keeps it Trade and immigration routes open, as they are now, but that would defeat the purpose of withdrawing, wouldn't it? Add that to the fact you wouldn't be getting your extra billions in EU funding and your already over-bloated budget and you are looking at economic suicide.

Poland won't be able to conduct its tax dumping against us anymore because we will not be a member of the EU.

What is it you have against Poland? And their are strict rules in place with regards to EU subsidies anyway, as discussed above, but completely ignored.

We will not have to pay any money to the EU budget.

Nor will you get any. Imagine your budget deficit minus all those EU subsidies you get. Looking bleak isn't it?

We will not have to pay any money as punishment.

Ironic that your crying about breaking the very rules that yourselves wrote. Sweet, sweet irony.....I love it.

The cheap employees from the East will not be able to immigrate, so unemployment will drop.

Ahh, yes, I can see that you have attended the "No Economic Sense School of Economics". As addressed above, if you stopped employing these "cheap" workers and employed Germans, then costs would rise. Not just for business, but for you, the consumer. That would mean that wages would have to rise and as a result costs would rise, this would, in turn, fuel inflation and lead to an economic nightmare.

It is YOU who fails to see that, not me.

Really, care to elaborate?

It is YOU who displays a complete lack of knowledge for anything that isn't printed in the Sun.

Oh dear god...I can't type as I am laughing too much.....hang on.....nearly there.....right...

That comment was directed at Bulldog, who knows lots about not very much and what he does know about, he quotes from the Sun and the Mirror.

They are two rather crappy tabloid "newspapers" here in the UK which have a habit of telling less truth than John the Liar, King of Liar Land, on Liar Land National tell a Dirty Great Big Stinky Lie Day.

I do not read the Sun....well....only one page of it anyway.....


I await your rebuttal, but be warned, I am merciless and will expose these half baked ideas of yours as folly.

[edit on 25/8/05 by stumason]