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EU about to punish Germany

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posted on Aug, 25 2005 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
Hahaha..And you base this wonderful economic plan on what?

Facts. One of these facts is that Germany won't have to pay any money to the EU budget.

Originally posted by stumason
Without the EU, trade and immigration barriers will go up, incurring costs on the German economy which will make it uncompetative with the remainder of the EU and Global market.

No, it will not.

Originally posted by stumason
Because you will have to employ German Nationals, who will demand a higher wage, to do the same job that an eastern immigrant would do for less.

German nationals are better qualified and perform better.

Originally posted by stumason
Also, Germans would be forced into menial jobs that they would have perhaps avoided doing and been happy for the Eastern guys to do, such as catering and cleaning.

Not truth. Cooking is done by Germans. We Germans want to eat healthy food, and because we don't believe other nations, we make food on our own.

Originally posted by stumason
Unfortunateley, any country that tries to protect its own economy by excluding or restricting another, especially one that is larger and is surrounding you on all sides, would only harm you and increase isolation.

No, it wouldnt harm us. EU membership harms us. Quitting the EU would mean being free from the Eastern employees and no tax dumping.
But that doesn't necessarily mean ISOLATION - that would just mean preventing the flow of the Easterners and the negative effect of the tax dumping. We could still trade with other countries (that means: sell to other countries and buy from other countries).

Originally posted by stumason
This in turn would lead to an economic collapse.

No. EU membership will lead us to an economic collapse (actually, it already harmed our economy).

Originally posted by stumason
Add that to the fact you wouldn't be getting your extra billions in EU funding and your already over-bloated budget and you are looking at economic suicide.

No. We would save money.

Originally posted by stumason

What is it you have against Poland?

They are destroying our economy and they are our enemies.


Originally posted by stumason
Nor will you get any.

We get few money from the EU budget.

Imagine your budget deficit minus all those EU subsidies you get. Looking bleak isn't it?
Right now we pay A LOT of money to the EU budget. We would save A LOT of money by exitting the EU.

Originally posted by stumason
Ironic that your crying about breaking the very rules that yourselves wrote. Sweet, sweet irony.....I love it.

I dont care. Germany should be independent. Germany shouldnt be punished by anyone.

Originally posted by stumason
I await your rebuttal, but be warned, I am merciless

You are ignorant, not merciless.

Originally posted by stumason
and will expose these half baked ideas of yours as folly.

These are not ideas, these are facts.

[edit on 25-8-2005 by AtheiX]

[edit on 25-8-2005 by AtheiX]

[edit on 25-8-2005 by AtheiX]




posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:58 AM
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Right. Sorry for the delay, but the pub was calling last night...



Originally posted by stumason
Hahaha..And you base this wonderful economic plan on what?
Facts. One of these facts is that Germany won't have to pay any money to the EU budget.


Care to present these facts in something more than a one liner?

Yes, Germany won't pay any money into the EU, but it also will not receive any. Think of all the programs that the EU funds, think of all the subsidies.

Your Government is already running at a huge deficit, so don't assume that just because you are not paying any money into Europe that the money will be made available to spend within Germany.

Methinks that the Government will just use the money spent on Europe to lessen it's deficit, rather than increasing spending.



Originally posted by stumason
Without the EU, trade and immigration barriers will go up, incurring costs on the German economy which will make it uncompetative with the remainder of the EU and Global market.

No, it will not


Again, care to actually substantiate your claims with something more meaningful than that?

I have outlined how withdrawing from the EU and all it's agreements would harm German trade and the response is "No it won't"...come on, humour me, try actually engaging in debate and back up your claims.



Originally posted by stumason
Because you will have to employ German Nationals, who will demand a higher wage, to do the same job that an eastern immigrant would do for less.

German nationals are better qualified and perform better.


Ok....Your point is? You did not address the fact that as a result of "being better qualified" or "better workers" they will naturally ask for more money, increasing costs ets etc..... Want to think about that one again do we?



Originally posted by stumason
Also, Germans would be forced into menial jobs that they would have perhaps avoided doing and been happy for the Eastern guys to do, such as catering and cleaning.

Not truth. Cooking is done by Germans. We Germans want to eat healthy food, and because we don't believe other nations, we make food on our own.


I think you missed my point. How many non-germans are working in your restuarants, your cafeterias, your fast food outlets. Think of any big food preparation or production operation, such as food processing or perhaps the cateen in your office and I guarantee that all the lower paid jobs will be filled with migrant workers.

Again, if your going to make claims like that above, please back them up with something more than your teenage "thats not true" crap above, because it is true, it is true the world over.




Originally posted by stumason
Unfortunateley, any country that tries to protect its own economy by excluding or restricting another, especially one that is larger and is surrounding you on all sides, would only harm you and increase isolation

No, it wouldnt harm us. EU membership harms us. Quitting the EU would mean being free from the Eastern employees and no tax dumping.
But that doesn't necessarily mean ISOLATION - that would just mean preventing the flow of the Easterners and the negative effect of the tax dumping. We could still trade with other countries (that means: sell to other countries and buy from other countries).


You have absolutley no idea what the EU does, do you? Without the EU, you can be rest assured that there would be tarriffs, quotas et al on all trade with Germany, in order to protect the rest of the EU. You don't think we just trade willy-nilly with anyone around the world do you? Currently, there are quotas and tarriffs on hundreds of products coming out of India, China, and even the US, so why would Germany be a special case? Simple answer, it wouldn't.

The German economy is reliant on free trade within the eurozone and hauling it out would cause untold economic woe, as free trade would not be possible on the scale that currently exists within the framework of the EU.

Germany does not have the economic might to take on other powers in the Global Market place on it's own. You would be sidelined into insignificance and your economy would shrink.



Originally posted by stumason
This in turn would lead to an economic collapse.

No. EU membership will lead us to an economic collapse (actually, it already harmed our economy).


No, it won't. Yes, you are currently experiencing a slump (your economy is still growing, albeit very slowly) but not so long ago, Germany was the engine for European growth.

The reason you, France and other ( not all though) EU countries are slumping is partly due to the recession of the early century and partly due to bad fiscal management and economic planning by your Governments.

You have too tight a laws governing employment, your goverment tries to keep a tight control over the economy and make companies wade through so much red tape, that doing business in some EU countries is costly, this in turn puts off some companies and others have to scale back operations.

If you guys would just listen to us (UK) and liberalise your economies, everyone would see that the EU would grow and prosper the same as we have. But you cling to this silly socialist ideal, when in practice it costs too much for your current economic practices to support.



No. We would save money.


No, as explained above, just because you don't put money into the EU it does nto mean that the money would be available. You are running a deficit.



They are destroying our economy and they are our enemies.


Nope, your Goverment and its piss-poor economic planning is "destroying" your economy. Same with France.

And why are Poland your enemies? I have a sneaky feeling that I am talking to some closet Neo-Nazi idealist, who seems to think that Germany should be the sole world power and all should tremble before her might.

Well, get with the program chap, it is not going to happen. No more liebensraum and the Polish and other Easterners are not the untermenchen.



I dont care. Germany should be independent. Germany shouldnt be punished by anyone.


News flash, sunshine, Germany IS independant!! You are being punished for the budget deficit (and rightly so! do you actually want your geovernemnt to keep racking up debt?) as it will harm Germany and the EU if it is allowed to continue. You wrote the rules, now stop your whining.



You are ignorant, not merciless.


It is you who are ignorant. I have clearly laid out all the reasons above as to why I believe you are talking out of your arse. If you actually want to convince anyone that your point of view is valid and well founded on solid facts, then present them and engage in a proper debate, rather than the tantrums you are throwing here without any kind of supporting information



These are not ideas, these are facts


Ok....Then present these facts.

Until then, I shall eagerly await your next installment of Germany is great...so there!



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 04:05 AM
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Originally posted by stumason



Care to present these facts in something more than a one liner?

Yes, Germany won't pay any money into the EU, but it also will not receive any. Think of all the programs that the EU funds, think of all the subsidies.

YOU think of all the subsidies! We get little money from the EU budget.
Your Government is already running at a huge deficit, so don't assume that just because you are not paying any money into Europe that the money will be made available to spend within Germany.

We pay MUCH MORE money to the EU budget than we receive. Go to news.bbc.co.uk... - already in 2003, BEFORE the extension of the EU, we were already paying 8.6 BILLION euros more than we received. In other words, already by then we were LOSING 8.6 BILLION euros each year.




Originally posted by stumason[i/]
Again, care to actually substantiate your claims with something more meaningful than that?

German economy is incompetitive NOW - because we have employ Easterners, who are worse qualified and perform worse, and because we have to pay A LOT money to the EU budget.

Originally posted by stumason[i/]
I have outlined how withdrawing from the EU and all it's agreements would harm German trade and the response is "No it won't"...come on, humour me, try actually engaging in debate and back up your claims.

I am backing up my claims. I am saying more than No it wont. You just dont want to acknowledge that I did.

Originally posted by stumason[i/]
Ok....Your point is? You did not address the fact that as a result of "being better qualified" or "better workers" they will naturally ask for more money, increasing costs ets etc.....

That is because I thought this is obvious. But since to you it isnt obvious, then Ill tell you. Employing employees who perform better means that the company will perform better.


No, it wouldnt harm us. EU membership harms us. Quitting the EU would mean being free from the Eastern employees and no tax dumping.
But that doesn't necessarily mean ISOLATION - that would just mean preventing the flow of the Easterners and the negative effect of the tax dumping. We could still trade with other countries (that means: sell to other countries and buy from other countries).



You have absolutley no idea what the EU does, do you?

It is YOU who has absolutely no idea what the EU does.


Without the EU, you can be rest assured that there would be tarriffs, quotas et al on all trade with Germany, in order to protect the rest of the EU.

THAT ALSO APPLIES TO THE EU! You think we wouldnt institute any tariffs or customs?
Besides, we can find replacement countries. Its not that we have to trade with the EU in order to profit.


The German economy is reliant on free trade within the eurozone

No. Our economy is reliant on
1) employing employees that perform well
2) NO WASTING MONEY ON PAYING TO OTHER COUNTRIES
3) Demand for our products (for example, we should produce trucks if a country DOES need them) - that is what EVERY economy relies on - if there is no supply on what the country has to export, the country won't make money.


Germany does not have the economic might to take on other powers in the Global Market place on it's own.

NOW we dont. We had before the foundation and extension of the EU. But it doesnt matter. We dont need to be the worlds biggest economic power, which the US is now. We only need to profit. We can do that without being the worlds biggest economic power, which the US is now. Switzerland is not an economic power, but they DO profit.


You would be sidelined into insignificance and your economy would shrink.

Of course, you cant say more than that. Another matter is that you are wrong. We would only profit, as we would have to employ OUR OWN well performing people, would be trading with countries that WE WANT TO TRADE WITH, and wouldnt be paying anything to the EU budget.




No, it won't. Yes, you are currently experiencing a slump

It will. In fact, it already harms our economy. THAT IS A FACT. THAT ALREADY HAPPENS.


The reason you, France and other ( not all though) EU countries are slumping is partly due to bad fiscal management and economic planning by your Governments.

No! There is nothing wrong with our economic policy! It was our economic policy before the foundation and extension of the EU! And before the foundation and extension of the EU, we were profitting!



No, as explained above, just because you don't put money into the EU it does nto mean that the money would be available.

No. We would save money, because WE PAY MUCH MORE TO THE EU BUDGET THAN WE RECEIVE.


You are running a deficit.

That is because we have to pay a lot of money to the EU budget, and because of our economic situation, which is because of our membership in the EU.


And why are Poland your enemies?

Because
1) They speak badly about us each time they speak about us
2) They stole OUR land (Silesia)


I have a sneaky feeling that I am talking to some closet Neo-Nazi idealist,

READ MY POSTS. I am not a Neonazi, I am a deutschnational. Thats different.


who seems to think that Germany should be the sole world power

I dont think that Germany should be the sole world power. I think that the other world powers should be France, USA, Japan and India.




Well, get with the program chap, it is not going to happen.

Unless Germany exits the EU (which is when it would have a chance but not be sure), it wont happen. But it doesnt matter, because thats not what we desire.


No more liebensraum

Lebensraum, not liebensraum. Liebe means love.


and the Polish and other Easterners are not the untermenchen.

I didnt say that. But they are our enemies.




News flash, sunshine, Germany IS independant!!

News flash, Germany is NOT independent. We have to obey Poland (because of the EU voting system and the EU constitution) and to obey the whole EU.





It is you who are ignorant.

It is YOU who is ignorant. You ignore facts. EU membership harms German economy. THAT IS A FACT. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS.
We pay to the EU budget MUCH MORE than we receive. THAT IS A FACT.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by AtheiX]

[edit on 26-8-2005 by AtheiX]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 04:32 AM
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There are 2 countries that profit in spite of not being a member of the EU or any organisation like the EU.

The United States
1) The United States dont pay any money to other countries (with the exception of aid for Africa).
2) They US have immigration laws. Illegal immigrants are deportated.
3) The US is not a member of the EU or any organisation like the EU.
But guess what? THE US IS THE WORLDS BIGGEST ECONOMIC POWER! (it has weakened, but that is because of war in Iraq).

Switzerland
1) Switzerland does not pay any money to other countries (with the exception of aid for Africa).
2) Switzerland has immigration laws.
3) Switzerland is not a member of the EU or any organisation like the EU.
However, Switzerland IS economically strong.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 09:52 AM
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I'm not going to slog anti-EU-ism out in this one but I think a couple of points really need to be made on what has been said so far.


Originally posted by AtheiX
Because
1) They speak badly about us each time they speak about us


- Given the staggeringly appalling treatment of Poland by Germany and Germans in the not too distant past are you really surprised that some (but surely you are not trying to claim all?) Poles still speak badly of Germany and Germans?
Don't you know that such feelings are certainly not confined to Poland?

Thankfully we are moving away from such memories but there are millions of people all across Europe who remember only too clearly the war and all it entailed - not forgetting those in the following generations who were forced to grow up without fathers, grandfathers, uncles etc etc.
Such is the scale of human devastation the nazis brought to us all; including all the 'guilt' and 'attitude' subsequent generations of Germans have suffered.

But for all that surely you should recognise the fact and positives now that they (Poland) have freely joined the cooperative collective that is the EU?


2) They stole OUR land (Silesia)


- Er, actually Poland did not.

Stalin, as war booty and a direct security responce to aggression from 'the west' (ie Germany), moved the USSR's borders approx 200miles to the west (ie stealing a large chunk of Poland).
In compensation to Poland the Soviets moved Poland's western border approx 200miles, giving Poland Silesia.

All of this was a direct consequence of the war against the USSR that Hitler and his nazi Germany started and lost.

If you are looking for someone to blame for lost territories I suggest you confine yourself to the facts and concentrate much closer to home than the Poles.
Poland actually had nothing to do with it.


Lebensraum, not liebensraum. Liebe means love.


- A decent joke (or a Freudian slip) if ever there was!



I didnt say that. But they are our enemies.


- They are not.
The Poles are actually your military allies treaty bound to go to Germany's aid if Germany is ever attacked (Poland joined NATO in 1999).
But, as said, there is probably a long way to go until you each become anything like friends.
At least a start has been made.
Each being members of the EU and NATO is a start but sadly as you yourself amply demonstrate there is a long way to go yet.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 10:54 AM
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Ok....I see this is going to be a long haul one then......



YOU think of all the subsidies! We get little money from the EU budget.


Right, Germany is the third largest recipient of EU funding for Regional Aid and Agriculture. This means that your farmers get 6.468 Billion Euros a year from Europe and you get 4.16 Billion euros in Regional Aid.

This means that annually, you get 10.628 Billion Euros. Whilst germany may be the leading net contributor, you actually pay less per head than Holland or Spain, whislt getting back proportionally more per head.

Imagine if 10 Billion euros a year was just sucked out of your economy. This would have to replac ed by state spending to avoid a collapse and when you are already set to borrow an extra 22 Billion euros this year, even after 3 Billion euros has been cut from your budget and 17 Billion euros has been made from selling of Government assets, that looks like either your Gov would either have to get into more debt or just not replace the money.

Even if you did, for arguments sake, balance the books and keep the 8.6 billion Euro net contribution that you make, that still leaves your National budget 14 Billion Euros in the red.

How you can blame your woefully sluggish economy on your contributions to the EU, when it is quite clear from examining information about your budget that your Government simply does not have a grip on the situation. Britain is the second largest net contributor to the EU, but as you can see, our economy is doing fine

Source 1
Source 2



German economy is incompetitive NOW - because we have employ Easterners, who are worse qualified and perform worse, and because we have to pay A LOT money to the EU budget.


You do not understand what you are talking about. These Easterners actually take up the lower paid and lower skilled jobs, essentially freeing up those "better" Germans that you keep talking about to do the more skilled, higher paid jobs.

What makes you think that Polish etc are worse workers? What do you base this on? What makes you think that Germans are better than anyone else?

It's called market forces, mate, if you had all these highly educated super workers, then why is the German economy underperforming?

As illustrated above, this cannot be laid at the feet of paying money to the EU as you would still have a sizeable deficit in your budget without paying that money.

The reason why the German (and french) economies are sluggish is due to increasing social welfare costs and a very rigid, inflexible economic strategy by both governments. The French are far to protectionist and will do whatever it takes to look after there own poorly performing indutries without demanding that they modernise and become more flexible.

As is well known, in a fast changing environment, those that cannot adapt will invariably be left by the wayside.



I am backing up my claims. I am saying more than No it wont. You just dont want to acknowledge that I did.


No your not backing up anything. Even the few sites you link to can be used to point out that what you are talking about is utter foolishness. Apart from the few links you provided, nothing else, not even a decent well worded paragraph outlining your ideas has been provided.

You are regurgetating the same tired old line about how much better germany would be without providing any sort of reasoning behind it.



That is because I thought this is obvious. But since to you it isnt obvious, then Ill tell you. Employing employees who perform better means that the company will profit more.


Employing higher skilled workers increases costs, as they demand higher wages. It will not necessarily translate into profit just because you have 800 graduates working for you.

Also, there are plenty of Eastern graduates, educated to the same level as any German could be that can do the job. In any nation today there is an amount of money that people would expect to earn to maintain a certain standard of living and they will not work for less than this amount.

That is why, letting in lots of cheap labour from the East to do the jobs that the Germans don't want to do (catering/cleaning/low-skilled manufacture) is good for an economy. It provides an increased consumer base by those immigrating, lower costs for said consumer goods that would be produced by these people, that in turn would boost the economy and provide higher paid, better skilled service related jobs to those that can do them. If all those immigrants doing these low paid jobs where forced out, you have two choices:

1) Germans work for the low wage that would be offered to do these jobs and live crappy lives being unable to afford the very products they produce
or
2)The Germans would refuse to do the jobs at such a low wage and either claim higher pay, forcing up costs or, in a worst case scenario, it would force the downsizing or closure of many businesses that would not be able to operate as their costs have increased.

This in turn would have a knock on effect, increasing unemployment. Those now unemployed would be forced into accepting the lower wages that would be around due to an increase in the supply of workers, thus making the overal GDP drop, thereby hitting the tax revenues of the state and further exasperating the already dismal budget situation.

Back to square one. Wooops.



It is YOU who has absolutely no idea what the EU does.


Perhaps you should start a thread about that then and we shall discuss the EU there.



THAT ALSO APPLIES TO THE EU! You think we wouldnt institute any tariffs or customs?


Market forces would make it very difficult for you to place any meaningful tarriffs on imports when you have such a huge trading bloc to deal with. Costs would rise within Germany as a result as your own manufacturing capability is not enough to meet demand.



Besides, we can find replacement countries. Its not that we have to trade with the EU in order to profit


Finding another country to trade with, when you have others making stuff cheaper (remember, your costs have increased since you kicked out all the "easterners") would be difficult. Sitting completely outside the EU would place you in a very precarious position and limit your bargaining power.



NOW we dont. We had before the foundation and extension of the EU. But it doesnt matter. We dont need to be the worlds biggest economic power, which the US is now.


The only reason that in the 50's you were booming was because you were rebuilding your country on the back of loans from the US. Then, after the formation of the EU, Germany was the powerhouse of the European economy for a long time (up until reunification).

Since reunification, it has been difficult for you guys to incorporate the former Soviet part into the Western side, which is the cause for much of the economic instability you have at present.



We only need to profit. We can do that without being the worlds biggest economic power, which the US is now. Switzerland is not an economic power, but they DO profit.


How would you profit with increased business costs? What do you have to trade, that someone else cannot make for less? You need to either add value to a product if yours is more expensive, or produce it for less, otherwise no one will buy it. The US is an absolutely huge country, many of the States are bigger than most European countries. They are, for all intents and purposes in this argument, a huge trading bloc of 50 states. They have the sheer economic power to be able to turn out vast quantities of produce, thereby utilising economies of scale and lessening costs.

Switzerland has agreements for unrestricted passage over its borders for Eu citizens and has lowered trade barriers, without these, they would have stagnated, being surrounded on all sides by the EU.



That is because we have to pay a lot of money to the EU budget, and because of our economic situation, which is because of our membership in the EU.


Your deficit has nothing to do with the EU. It is due to poor economic management and an uncompetativess that is prevalent across Europe.



Because
1) They speak badly about us each time they speak about us
2) They stole OUR land (Silesia)


Really? When? Besides, I hardly think you can cry about "stolen land"....



READ MY POSTS. I am not a Neonazi, I am a deutschnational. Thats different.


Care to elaborate on that?



Lebensraum, not liebensraum. Liebe means love.


Semantics. I could pull you up on spelling and grammar, but I wont. I know quite a bit of German, having lived ther eand studied the language, but my spelling is a little off.



I didnt say that. But they are our enemies.


WHY? Why, why, why, why?



It is YOU who is ignorant. You ignore facts. EU membership harms German economy. THAT IS A FACT. THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS.


I am ignorant? Read the monster post above and say i am ignoring facts. You conviently side step everything I say and counter it with nothing more than teenage rambling.

Out of curiosity, how old are you?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
Right, Germany is the third largest recipient of EU funding for Regional Aid and Agriculture. This means that your farmers get 6.468 Billion Euros a year from Europe and you get 4.16 Billion euros in Regional Aid.

This means that annually, you get 10.628 Billion Euros.

That is not true! Do you have any proof to back up your claim? Ha - you don't! That's because it is not true!
We get little money from the EU budget.

Originally posted by stumason
Whilst germany may be the leading net contributor,

Not "may". Germany IS the leading contributor. Germany pays much more money to the EU budget that any other country in the EU. It has since the foundation of the EU.

Originally posted by stumason
you actually pay less per head than Holland or Spain,

That is because we have a larger population.

Originally posted by stumason
Imagine if 10 Billion euros a year was just sucked out of your economy.

Firstly, not 10 billion euros, you're lying. Secondly, imagine that we saved over 8 billion euros a year by not paying to the EU budget.

Originally posted by stumason
when it is quite clear from examining information about your budget that your Government simply does not have a grip on the situation.

OUR GOVERNMENTS HAS A GRIP ON THE SITUATION BUT THE SITUATION IS BAD BECAUSE OF THE EU!

Originally posted by stumason
Britain is the second largest net contributor to the EU, but as you can see, our economy is doing fine

You pay much less money to the EU budget than we do, and you also receive some of your money back as a rebate.

Originally posted by stumason
What makes you think that Polish etc are worse workers?

I don't think that. I know that.

Originally posted by stumason
What do you base this on?

I have lived for some years in Poland.
Polish workers not only perform worse, but also are willing to do less work than Germans are willing to do.

Originally posted by stumason
What makes you think that Germans are better than anyone else?

I didn't say that Germans are better than anyone else. You're lying again.

Originally posted by stumason
It's called market forces, mate, if you had all these highly educated super workers, then why is the German economy underperforming?

Because of the flow of Easterners and because of the necessity paying much money to the EU budget. I already said that.

Originally posted by stumason
The reason why the German (and french) economies are sluggish is due to increasing social welfare costs and a very rigid, inflexible economic strategy by both governments.

There is nothing wrong with our governments! The reason for why our economies are underperforming is because of what I mentioned - losing much money as payment to the EU budget and flow of Easterners!

Originally posted by stumason
The French are far to protectionist and will do whatever it takes to look after there own poorly performing indutries without demanding that they modernise and become more flexible.

There is nothing wrong with France. Their industry is NOT performing poorly. And they do have modern industry - aviation industry, train industry, tram industry, train industry, ship industry, metal industry, machine industry, electronical industry and electrotechnical industry.


Originally posted by stumason
No your not backing up anything.

I am backing up my claims. It's just that you don't want to acknowledge that I did.

Originally posted by stumason
Even the few sites you link to can be used to point out that what you are talking about is utter foolishness.

ITS IS YOU WHO IS TALKING ABOUT UTTER FOOLISHNESS!

Originally posted by stumason
Apart from the few links you provided, nothing else, not even a decent well worded paragraph outlining your ideas has been provided.

All my paragraphs are decent.

Originally posted by stumason
You are regurgetating the same tired old line about how much better germany would be without providing any sort of reasoning behind it.

No. I am providing reasoning. It's just that you don't want to acknowledge that I did. You're lying again.
And I am not regurgetating the same tired old line. I am providing arguments.


Originally posted by stumason
Employing higher skilled workers increases costs, as they demand higher wages.

But it will also increase profits. Employing employees who perform better means that the company will profit more. If a company will employ better performing employees, then it will profit more.


Originally posted by stumason
Also, there are plenty of Eastern graduates, educated to the same level as any German could be that can do the job.

Um NO. The Easterners are worse qualified than we are.

Originally posted by stumason
If all those immigrants doing these low paid jobs where forced out, you have two choices:

2)The Germans would refuse to do the jobs at such a low wage and either claim higher pay, forcing up costs or, in a worst case scenario, it would force the downsizing or closure of many businesses that would not be able to operate as their costs have increased.

You ignore the fact that the profits would also increase because the employees would be German employees, who peform better.

Originally posted by stumason


THAT ALSO APPLIES TO THE EU! You think we wouldnt institute any tariffs or customs?


Market forces would make it very difficult for you to place any meaningful tarriffs on imports when you have such a huge trading bloc to deal with.

No, it wouldn't, because if we were independent, we could do ANYTHING.
You said that the EU is a large trading bloc. HAHAHA! EU consists of only 25 countries (after Germany left, there would be 24 member countries). In the whole world, there are about 200 countries.

Originally posted by stumason
Costs would rise within Germany as a result as your own manufacturing capability is not enough to meet demand.

It is enough to meet demand. And would be if we exitted the EU.


Besides, we can find replacement countries. Its not that we have to trade with the EU in order to profit


Originally posted by stumason
Finding another country to trade with, when you have others making stuff cheaper (remember, your costs have increased since you kicked out all the "easterners") would be difficult.

But we have employed better performing employees, so we are performing better. While the EU performs badly because it has employed badly performing employees.




NOW we dont. We had before the foundation and extension of the EU. But it doesnt matter. We dont need to be the worlds biggest economic power, which the US is now.


Originally posted by stumason
The only reason that in the 50's you were booming was because you were rebuilding your country on the back of loans from the US.

That is not truth. That was because of our economic policy, the high quality of our products and the good performance of our employees.

Originally posted by stumason
Since reunification, it has been difficult for you guys to incorporate the former Soviet part into the Western side, which is the cause for much of the economic instability you have at present.

This is not the reason. The reason is membership in the EU.


Originally posted by stumason
How would you profit with increased business costs?

Our employees would be German employees. German employees perform better.

Originally posted by stumason
The US is an absolutely huge country, many of the States are bigger than most European countries. They are, for all intents and purposes in this argument, a huge trading bloc of 50 states.

It doesn't matter. They have immigration laws, they don't let their companies move to other countries. The fact that they are a big country causes the fact that they are the world's biggest economic power, but in order to be an economic power (not the biggest economic power) a country does not have to be as large as the US.

Originally posted by stumason
Switzerland has agreements for unrestricted passage over its borders for Eu citizens and has lowered trade barriers, without these, they would have stagnated, being surrounded on all sides by the EU.

That is not truth. They have been prospering before the EU was founded.

Originally posted by stumason
Your deficit has nothing to do with the EU.
It does. We have to pay much more money to the EU budget than we receive. We also lost a lost of money as aid to Africa and a lot of money by cancelling debts of all African countries to us.

Originally posted by stumason

Really? When?

In two phases. In 1921 and in 1945.

Originally posted by stumason
Besides, I hardly think you can cry about "stolen land"....

This was OUR LAND, so it was stolen.

Originally posted by stumason
Care to elaborate on that?

What does it mean to elaborate?

Originally posted by stumason
I could pull you up on spelling and grammar, but I wont. I know quite a bit of German, having lived ther eand studied the language, but my spelling is a little off.

I could pull you up on spelling and grammar as well.

Originally posted by stumason
WHY? Why, why, why, why?

I already said in my previous posts.


Originally posted by stumason
I am ignorant?

You are ignorant. You ignore facts.

Originally posted by stumason
You conviently side step everything I say and counter it with nothing more than teenage rambling.

No. I am backing up my claims, but you don't acknowledge that I do.

Originally posted by stumason
Out of curiosity, how old are you?

17.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by AtheiX]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Hey AtheiX

Haven't you got anything to say about the truth of what happened regarding the border movements at the end of WW2 and what happened to Silesia?

Hmmmmmm?



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Hey AtheiX

Haven't you got anything to say about the truth of what happened regarding the border movements at the end of WW2 and what happened to Silesia?

Hmmmmmm?

In 1920, there was a kind of a referendum conducted in Upper Silesia. IN THAT REFERENDUM, MOST PEOPLE VOTED FOR STAYING IN GERMANY. But a few Pol-Silesians started a riot and the Entente forced Germany to give Upper Silesia to Poland, because they (the Entente) hated Germany.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 01:34 PM
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news.bbc.co.uk...
This site doesn’t say that Germany pays 8.6 billion euros to the EU budget. It says that Germany pays 8.6 billion euros more to the EU budget than it receives.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by AtheiX
In 1920, there was a kind of a referendum conducted in Upper Silesia. IN THAT REFERENDUM, MOST PEOPLE VOTED FOR STAYING IN GERMANY. But a few Pol-Silesians started a riot and the Entente forced Germany to give Upper Silesia to Poland, because they (the Entente) hated Germany.


- You are avoiding the issue.

The events you have relayed are pre-WW2 and nothing to do with the postwar redrawing of the German, Polish and Russian borders by the USSR following Germany's defeat.

Silesia is now a part of Poland because of Russia (and the victorious allies consent) and the fact Germany lost WW2.

This has nothing to do with Poland. Poland was in no position to do anything immeadiately post WW2.

Can't you accept this is true?

[edit on 26-8-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The events you have relayed are pre-WW2 and nothing to do with the postwar redrawing of the German, Polish and Russian borders by the USSR following Germany's defeat.

The facts I mentioned have to do with UPPER SILESIA, which is also a part of Silesia.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Silesia is now a part of Poland because of Russia (and the victorious allies consent) and the fact Germany lost WW2.

There was no consent. Roosevelt and Churchill agreed to all Stalin's demands. That is not a consent, that is surrendering.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by AtheiX
The facts I mentioned have to do with UPPER SILESIA, which is also a part of Silesia.


- You raised events that happened preWW2.

They were more than over-taken by the events post WW2.

Face it man.


There was no consent. Roosevelt and Churchill agreed to all Stalin's demands. That is not a consent, that is surrendering.


- No, this is quite wrong.

The 'western powers fully accepted the idea of Stalin and the USSR having a 'sphere of influence' - though they were later to have second thoughts.

(Just as Americans today think they have a 'sphere of influence' concerning Sth America through their so-called 'Monroe doctrine')

The fact remains that it was Stalin and the USSR that moved the Russian border approx 200 miles west, then moved the Polish border by a similar amount and took those territories away from Germany.

Something the German chancellor Kohl finally accepted as permanent in 1990

Article 1 of the Final Settlement makes clear that with the German unification the question of its borders shall be finally determined. The borders of the united Germany as described in the Settlement shall be definitive.
The confirmation of the definitive nature of the borders of the united Germany is considered as an `essential element of the peaceful order in Europe'. This provision embraces a final settlement of all territorial questions arising from World War II.
The united Germany, as Article 1 para 3 of the Settlement provides - has no territorial claims whatsoever against other states and shall not assert any in the future. Concerning the Eastern border the existing border between Poland and Germany is to be confirmed in a binding treaty. The Settlement does not leave any discretion in that question.

www.ejil.org...

The fact also remains that this has nothing to do with any Polish actions post WW2 - which let's face it is the only period of any relevance in this matter.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- No, this is quite wrong.

No, this is not wrong. Roosevelt and Churchill AGREED TO FULFILL ALL STALIN'S DEMANDS. STALIN WANTED HIS SATELLITE COUNTRY POLAND TO EXPAND ITS BORDER, BECAUSE IT LOST OTHER TERRITORIES TO THE USSR.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The 'western powers fully accepted the idea of Stalin and the USSR having a 'sphere of influence'

A sphere of influence - BY GERMANY'S COST. So Silesia was stolen.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The fact remains that it was Stalin and the USSR that moved the Russian border approx 200 miles west, then moved the Polish border by a similar amount and took those territories away from Germany.

In other words, Silesia was stolen. Just because it was Stalin's will.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
which let's face it is the only period of any relevance in this matter.

No. Other periods of history do matter as well.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by AtheiX]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by AtheiX
Roosevelt and Churchill AGREED TO FULFILL ALL STALIN'S DEMANDS. STALIN WANTED HIS SATELLITE COUNTRY POLAND TO EXPAND ITS BORDER, BECAUSE IT LOST OTHER TERRITORIES TO THE USSR.


- Er, hang on, that is pretty much exactly what I said.

(Except Poland didn't actually do anything, how could she, she was a wreck and lacking any kind of legitimate leadership - it was in exile in the UK then.
Poland herself did not expand her borders west, Stalin did all of that alone when he moved Russia's borders.)

(and why are you shouting and using caps?)


A sphere of influence - BY GERMANY'S COST. So Silesia was stolen.


- Of course it was at Germany's 'cost'; that's surely an expected and perfectly normal consequence of losing (so hugely) the war in the east.

Surely you cannot imagine such a thing would be free from consequence?

You can claim territories were "stolen" all you like but Germany lost - and by the then standards Germany was happy to use on others when she had the chance this is really a case of 'tough luck'.
Considering the way others were treated by Germany - particularly in the east - the fact is Germany could have suffered far worse and the world wouldn't have cared less.


In other words, Silesia was stolen. Just because it was Stalin's will.


- Silesia was lost - taken as a spoil of war. Thanks to Germany losing the war against the USSR that Germany started.
It's a tad ridiculous and a bit late to be complaining given the circumstances.

You may call it "stolen" if you like but it is no different to the treatment Germany was happy to dish out when she was 'on top'.
Stalin and the USSR effectively moved Russia and Poland west by almost 200miles after the end of WW2.

Poland was utterly powerless and ruined at this time; this had nothing to do with Poland.


No. Other periods of history do matter as well.


- Well ok, there are instances where they can do but in this instance (when you are complaining about the present eastern German border) you are quite wrong to blame that on Poland.

It had nothing to do with Poland and everything to do with the direct consequences of Hitler involving Germany in a disasterous war, one consequence being that Russia was able to effectively move herself - and Poland - west by approx 200miles.

The blame for this totally resides with Hitler and the nazis and those of those generation(s) that brought them to power and sustained them through the madness they unleashed across Europe and the wider world.

It is not something one can try to blame the Poles for.

Nor is it likely to change.



[edit on 26-8-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 05:59 PM
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Athiex, this is a heads up....I will be responding to your post tomorrow, however, I feel that it would be quite a waste of time, as it is quite apparent that you choose to ignore everything that has been said or your grasp of the english language is limited.

I would go for the latter, as you do not know the word "elaborate". Now, please, do not take this as an insult, but I feel we have little chance of having a decent debate if their is a severe language barrier.



posted on Aug, 26 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Atheix, you really need to improve your discussion culture. If anyone says "you are wrong on this and that point" and backs that up with SOURCES, then "NO, YOU ARE WRONG" as an answer is not helping the discussion, nor does it strengthen your points. You wrote a lot of stuff, and most of it simply YOUR OWN OPINION, still you keep referring to "us/we germans".some of your points are offensive, some are hilarious, and most of them are utterly WRONG.

I will only comment on a few:

1. Your claim that the EU membership is what brings Germany down.

I already disproved this on the first page of this thread, but you chose to ignore it, so I will quote it here:


Originally posted by Lonestar24
And lets have a little look at the numbers: The Eu costs each German 92€ per head p.a. So 92€x82 million Germans = 7.544 billion € Germany loses to the EU. This figure of 92 € per head is the net amount of money Germany pays, the sum of German input into EU minus the sum that Germany GETS BACK directly from the EU.

Now the stability pact calls for a new debt of less than 3% of the annual GDP. Germanies GDP is 2.177 billion € for 2004. 3,1% of that are 67.49 billion €. So what the EU membership costs the Germans per year is only 8.5% of the total minimum new debt Germany WILL have this year. So you are wrong.


Even with your own number of 8.6 billion € net payment this stays within a rather neglectable 10% of Germany´s new debt. Germany has far worse money problems than the EU membership. For example the annual transfer of 70 Billion € from wetsern to eastern german states. Atheix, you are wrong.


2. Your claim that Germany could do it on its own.

Newsflash, have you ever heard of Germany´s role in international trade? Germany is
a. totally dependent on foreign sales
b. totally dependent on foreign sales within EU
c. totally dependent on imports

Look at THIS. Germany is the worlds largest exporter of real goods (counting in services and money transactions it is second to the USA). And it counts for over 80% of the whole EU exports. Now, look at the biggest trade partners:


France 10.2%, US 8.8%, UK 8.2%, Italy 7.2%, Netherlands 6.3%, Belgium 5.7%, Austria 5.4%, Spain 5% (2004)

Source

Hmm, take the US away and I only see European partners, partners because we all share the benefits of the EU. And compared to the huge amount of money ex- and imported Germany only has a relatively small lead of 74 billion € of exports vs. imports. This would most probably simply VANISH if Germany pulled out of EU. Atheix, you are wrong.


These numbers also disprove your statement:
3. Your claim that EU membership and Germany´s payments do not benefit Germany.

Your own link says that while Germany pays 8.6 bll. € and Spain receives 8.5 bll. €. The link I gave says that Spain counts for 5% of German exports. In money this is 44,7 billion €. And this is only ONE example of ONE trade partner of dozens within EU. Does this ring any bell? I´d hope so, but I guess not. Atheix, you are wrong.


4. Your claim that Germans like healthy food and thus mainly eat german meals by german cooks.

a. Germans do not especially like healthy food. Germany is in the top ten of obesity, heartstrokes lowest spending on food. Additionally not every country has to routinely add iodine to salt like Germany does (to prohibit malnourishment). If germans ate healthier this wouldnt be needed. Actually, the diversity of food brought to the country by the immigrants already lead to that it wouldnt necessarily be needed anymore. But you still have the kind of people that eat Schnitzel on a daily basis, so we keep the iodine.

b. German traditional meals are not healthy. That is a simple result of its northern position, and therefor its kitchen consist of heavy meals with lots of calories. Sausages, big meat lumps, heaps of potatoes, creamy sauces, cheese, thoroughly cooked and /or conserved vegetables are a specialty of the German as well as EVERY other northern european country. In the past this was a result of the higher calorie need and the lower availability of fresh vegetables and fruits.

c. Germans (as well as other northern europeans) especially like the different fresh and spicy flavours of other countries. I guess here, but I would say that 75% of German restaurants are not specialized in German food. Just go through a german city of reasonable size and show me ONE german restaurant before passing an italian, a turkish, a chinese and a fast food restaurant. The "turkish burger", the Döner Kebap, was even INVENTED in Germany.

Atheix, you are wrong. Please, either take it into consideration when someone obviously correcty a mistake of yours, OR LEAVE THIS DISCUSSION BOARD! I say leave because you obviously do not want to discuss, because a discussion should lead to a result. What you do (and also in most other threads) is only trolling out your opinion in disregard of reality. You can do that with your fellow Deutschnationals, but here it doesnt help anything.

Then again you might just brighten up the day of many people reading your posts, so please, post on


+++++++++++++++++

Disclaimer:
I know very well that most people contributing here know that Atheix is only one persons opinion.
I know very well that most people know that this is not a common way of thinking in Germany
AND I know very well that I shouldnt do this, but Atheix continues to speak as "WE GERMANS", so he includes me, and I am fed up with his. So I say that:

1. ...Atheix in no way represents any publicly cherished and accepted viewpoint in Germany

2. ... Atheix´s views are only shared by the most right-wing parties (which are only of regional significance) of Germany´s political diversity

3. ... that leaving the EU has NEVER been openly debated, discussed, even only thought of in any significant political, social or medial context.

4. ... that the Deutschnational movement is a fuzzy, long gone dream of an unified Germany with ALL germans including Austria and of totally independent German rule. The movement had its last appearance in 1933 when they dissolved into the NSDAP, and the last breath of it was in the 60´s when the newfounded DNVP was unsuccesful and dissolved into the NPD (Germanies extreme-right party).

5. ...that blaming the polish people for all the failures and shortcomings of modern Germany is NOT a common sport in my country.





[edit on 26/8/2005 by Lonestar24]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by Lonestar24
Atheix, you really need to improve your discussion culture.

It is YOU who needs to improve his discussion culture. I am ALWAYS backing up my claims, and this thread is an example of this.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
If anyone says "you are wrong on this and that point" and backs that up with SOURCES,

But stumason doesn't do that, while I do.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
then "NO, YOU ARE WRONG" as an answer is not helping the discussion,

I am writing more than that. READ MY POSTS.


Originally posted by Lonestar24
You wrote a lot of stuff, and most of it simply YOUR OWN OPINION,

NO. It is not my opinion, these are almost always FACTS (backed up by evidence, just like the fact of Germany losing money, which was backed up by a link to BBC's site).

Originally posted by Lonestar24
some of your points are offensive,

NONE OF MY POINTS ARE OFFENSIVE. I NEVER OFFEND ANYONE. ON THE OTHER HAND, SOME OF YOUR POINTS ARE OFFENSIVE. LIKE THIS ONE.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
some are hilarious, and most of them are utterly WRONG.

I hardly ever (ALTHOUGH NOT NEVER) am wrong. In this discussion, I am not wrong.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
1. Your claim that the EU membership is what brings Germany down.

It does. However, not only EU membership.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
I already disproved this on the first page of this thread

No, you didn't disprove that. I disproved you. You were posting rubbish, which I disproved. READ MY POSTS.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
And lets have a little look at the numbers: The Eu costs each German 92€ per head p.a. So 92€x82 million Germans = 7.544 billion € Germany loses to the EU. This figure of 92 € per head is the net amount of money Germany pays, the sum of German input into EU minus the sum that Germany GETS BACK directly from the EU.

Now the stability pact calls for a new debt of less than 3% of the annual GDP. Germanies GDP is 2.177 billion € for 2004. 3,1% of that are 67.49 billion €. So what the EU membership costs the Germans per year is only 8.5% of the total minimum new debt Germany WILL have this year. So you are wrong.

No. YOU are wrong. I have already in this discussion provided a link to the site which is presents how much money does Germany pay more to the EU budget than it receives. That money is 8.6 billion euros. So YOU are wrong, because Germany DOES lose money.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
Germany is
b. totally dependent on foreign sales within EU
c. totally dependent on imports

That is a lie.
Germany is not dependent on foreign sales within the EU. We could sell our products to any country outside the EU. And we are not dependent on imports (apart from oil and natural gas). We have our own resources and we are able to produce for ourselves almost anything we need. Read a book about Germany. Books about Germany prove that.

Another proof is that we were profitting LONG BEFORE the EU was founded. So no, we are not dependent.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
Now, look at the biggest trade partners:

France 10.2%, US 8.8%, UK 8.2%, Italy 7.2%, Netherlands 6.3%, Belgium 5.7%, Austria 5.4%, Spain 5% (2004)

Source

As I can said, we can find replacement countries for the EU. Apart from the EU countries, there are over 150 countries in the world, and they would buy our products as well. They would demand our products as well.

Not to mention the fact that after exitting the EU we would be allowed to trade with anyone. There wouldn't be any EU prohibition on whether we can or cannot trade with a particular country.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
These numbers also disprove your statement:
Your own link says that while Germany pays 8.6 bll. € and Spain receives 8.5 bll. €. The link I gave says that Spain counts for 5% of German exports. In money this is 44,7 billion €. And this is only ONE example of ONE trade partner of dozens within EU. Does this ring any bell? I´d hope so, but I guess not. Atheix, you are wrong.

No, I am not wrong, because we do not have to trade with EU countries, we can find replacement countries.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
4. Your claim that Germans like healthy food and thus mainly eat german meals by german cooks.

a. Germans do not especially like healthy food.

That is a lie. We DO like healthy food. That doesn't only apply to me.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
Germany is in the top ten of obesity,

Only in the top ten.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
b. German traditional meals are not healthy.

They ARE healthy. I eat Sauerkraut, frankfurters and pig meat, and I don't have health problems.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
That is a simple result of its northern position

We are not in the northern position, we are in middle Europe. The countries that are in a norther position are e.g. Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
Atheix, you are wrong. Please, either take it into consideration when someone obviously correcty a mistake of yours,

You are not correcting a mistake of mine because I DIDN'T MAKE A MISTAKE. You made a mistake. How? I proved in this post.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
OR LEAVE THIS DISCUSSION BOARD!

You leave this discussion board.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
I say leave because you obviously do not want to discuss,

YOU don't want to discuss. You are not only posting rubbish with no actual back-up (and when you do - which happens rarely - you are pointing out facts that are of small importance).

Originally posted by Lonestar24
What you do (and also in most other threads) is only trolling out your opinion in disregard of reality.

It is YOU who is trolling out your opinion in disregard of reality. You have no idea what you are talking about. You aren't backing up your claims with any evidence (in the topics I am talking about), and you are also behaving arrogantly.

Disclaimer:

Originally posted by Lonestar24
1. ...Atheix in no way represents any publicly cherished and accepted viewpoint in Germany

That is not true. It is my opinion that war in Iraq was wrong. That is a common viewpoint in Germany. It is my opinion that we can defend ourselves from outside aggression. That is a common viewpoint in Germany. However, there is an exception: the opinion that Germany should defend Taiwan in case of a Chinese aggression is my own opinion.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
2. ... Atheix´s views are only shared by the most right-wing parties (which are only of regional significance) of Germany´s political diversity

Not truth. My views are not shared by the Nazis.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
4. ... that the Deutschnational movement is a fuzzy, long gone dream of an unified Germany with ALL germans including Austria and of totally independent German rule. The movement had its last appearance in 1933 when they dissolved into the NSDAP, and the last breath of it was in the 60´s when the newfounded DNVP was unsuccesful and dissolved into the NPD (Germanies extreme-right party).

I am not a member of any party, and my view is not a Nazi view. The name I took for my political stance has absolutely nothing to do with the Nazis, I took it because it contains the words "Deutsch" and "national", aware of that some people will be mistaken.
You are falsely accusing me.


Originally posted by Lonestar24
5. ...that blaming the polish people for all the failures and shortcomings of modern Germany is NOT a common sport in my country.


Not truth. E.g. the German police says that "if your car was stolen, go to Poland - your car is already there in a workshop". Another fact is that Poles are our enemies, e.g. because they steal our cars. However, I am not blaming Poles for ALL the failures and shortcomings of modern Germany.



Germany is
a. totally dependent on foreign sales

Every country which wants to be an economic power is dependent on foreign sales. By selling to other countries, a country can make much money.
But apart from the EU, there are over 150 countries in the world. Germany could trade with them.

[edit on 27-8-2005 by AtheiX]

[edit on 27-8-2005 by AtheiX]

[edit on 27-8-2005 by AtheiX]

mod ed. to correct BB core [/u]

[edit on 27-8-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 08:37 PM
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Unless someone offers a compelling reason for this thread to remain open, it will shortly be closed.

It seems to have drifted off topic and gone down a path of bickering.



posted on Aug, 27 2005 @ 08:58 PM
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Close it by all means....not getting anywhere with it.







 
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