The topic for this debate is "Russia can and will return to something like the Soviet control system"

The_Final will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
Wyrdeone will argue against this proposition.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.

Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of 13 judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority (7) is reached.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.

Sorry for the post being so close to the deadline, but the time zone change caught me off guard.


I am very sorry to say that I will have to pull out of this debate due to schedualing problems. I will be attending a Standford Water Polo camp as a surprise birthday present which will be four days long starting tomorrow.For this reason I will be unable to post, which would disqualify me from the debate. I apologize once again and wish the best of luck to Wyrdeone,sorry dude but at least you advance..first one to at that!

OK, well, since you withdrew before posting, and it's Round 1, I'm gonna bring in Loki to take over.

First I want to thank everyone for their patience, I've had a rough week when it comes to technology. I think my electro-whatever fields are interfering with nearby circuitry, I've lost two rigs in three days.

And of course, thanks to Amory and Loki. I made y'all wait, and I'm sorry, so let's get started.

Human beings are famous for repeating past mistakes, granted. However, there are countless examples throughout history that show we, as a species, have the capability to learn from our mistakes, and even to profit from them. It is the engine by which we prosper and advance. Inevitably, the successful societies are the ones that learn the proper lessons and avoid the obvious pitfalls - it's simple survival advantage.

Human societies truly do stand on the shoulders of giants. We are here today, in our current incarnations, because of the mistakes and triumphs of our ancestors. Without the ideas, the teachings, and the warnings of earlier civilizations, our evolution as a species would be a fair sight more dodgey than it is already, and that's really saying something.

Most would agree that the human race has always clung to existence by the thinnest strand. We live on a watery dirt ball in a backwater neighborhood of the universe. We have survived fire, and ice, starvation, disease, privation of all sorts. It's our will that has kept us alive, kept us dominant.

The cities and cultures that came before are like our parents, they teach us and nurture us, they define us, and..sometimes..they embarass us.

Now, our parents can serve their children two ways. They can be a shining example, or a terrible warning. Either one suffices, as most grown children can attest.

The system of control utilized in soviet-era Russia failed because it could not accept the natural greed of human individuals. It recognized the natural altruism present in most of our kind, but it forgot the other side of the coin. We are duality personified, and this should be common knowledge at this point in history. Humans made a mistake, they built a machine that looked good on paper, it didn't work, back to the drawing board. That's how it goes, that's how it always goes.

We have to grow, we have to move on, we have to succeed where others have failed.

If anyone has a better chance of learning from the mistake of Communism, it's the Russians. They have the history, the terrible warning exists in reality for them, not just in a textbook. Of all the nations on earth, I would expect them to be the last to return to that system of governance whereby all men are equal, but some men are more equal than others. The reminders of that time are all around Russia, making it very difficult to forget that chapter of history.

We, as men, seek control over our fellows, because that's one way to insure our survival. The world has seen the pinnacle of control, and it is not communism, it is capitalism. Golden shackles are the most secure, because so few prisoners have the strength to overcome their greed.

Personally, I find both systems distasteful, however, I believe Capitalism is much more attractive to the masses than Communism ever was. The disparity in the world market share should tell us something.

My father always said to me, "If you're going to sell anything, sell dreams."

Now, both systems have a convincing pitch, and both are certainly selling dreams, but Capitalism has the added advantage of ENCOURAGING greed instead of simply refusing to acknowledge its existence. The rags to riches dream is a powerful motivator, much more so than the general warm and fuzzy feeling of working so your comrades can remain comfortable. Capitalism plays on our (often humongous) desire for self advancement.

Capitalism is an 'improvement' on Communism, in the sense that it achieves greater control over the actions of the people, and does so with less overt violence.

That's the primary reason the Russians won't return to a system of hardwired state control. Why use a butter knife to cut steak?

The Russian power brokers and control mongers have a new game plan, they bought a bigger stick, and you can bet that they'll use it to their advantage.

Loki forfeits his reply, WyrdeOne please continue.

[edit on 6/27/2005 by Amorymeltzer]

I apologize for missing my last post.

You've raised a few concerns, so I'm going to have to address them for you:

When 70% of Russians say NO to communism, and fewer than five percent say YES, the will of the people is fairly clear.

This is a valid point, however we must all realize that the system that is in place is flawed, because if the government becomes corrupted, the people themselves have zero power to stop it. Executive action will replace democratic election...I mean, once the people lose their voice, there's really nothing to do...Which despite what many think, is more than possible. In fact, nearly 50% of Americans may at this very moment feel as if they have lost their voice in the government, with the result of this past election, and the growing power of the Republican party, I'm sure that there are many Democrats out there that feel as if they are losing what little power they had to begin with...is it really so far a stretch to see the same, and worse, happening in Russia?

or he's very skilled at manipulating perceptions, either way the result is the same.

One of they key policies of the Soviet Union was to keep their people under contol. The did this by fear, oppression, deception, and of course, the expulstion banishment of free-thinkers, and the 'Iron Curtain' policy, keeping new ideas from becoming common knowledge...what you say here raises the hackles on my neck, as to me, it indicates that one minor piece is in place, and that Russia truly may not be far from what we speak of.

The revival of Russian cultural heritage is in full swing after it was nearly lost to the creeping, bland uniformity of the soviet era. Powerful, influential churches of several faiths (primarily the orthodox church) gained more than most from the soviet collapse, they are in a good position now to prevent its resurection.

Um, not to alarm anyone, but RELIGION, especially in the Orthodox church (in which every facet of the congregation's lives are affected by the church, especially that of those highly invovled..) Is at it's core another form of control. I dont' mean to offend, but organized religion (and you can see this throughout history), is a way in which leaders kept their population under control. Some of the more notable examples are in the middle east, where Religion IS the state, and also, during the time of the crusades, the whole of Europe was literally under the control of the church...it was a 'Mandate from God' that they retake the holy land from the 'Heathen'. Reading deeper into that paragraph, I'm alarmed to see that you've even come out and said that these religions have power in the government. I say, man...are you trying to hand this debate to me? Religion, because so many cling to it for hope, is the perfect vessel in which to control people. Here, I'll make it easier to understand...with an example set closer to home. Here in America, The 'christian' church has attached itself to the Republican Party. Now, whether or not there was a memo sent out to everyone officially announcing this is immaterial. The truth is that the connection exists. This puts all followers of that religion into a moral obligation to support said party, or be labelled as 'not a good Christian', or 'not devout', whatever. We saw this first hand during the last elections, when Bush's camp made it very clearly known that they didn't buy it, when Kerry said he considered himself a devout man. It's the persecution of those that 'are not' what you are, and it's textbook to getting all your sheep herded into one corral. From this will stem the ability to control Russia from the top down, under one body, and though it won't, like I said, be Communism in name, it will bear the earmarks of a similar system to that of Soviet Rule.

Historically, communism has been easiest to pitch when the people are living in abject poverty,

You also must realize that the seeds of communism are ready for harvest when there exists a clear class division, where there exist figures something like this: 75-90% of all wealth of the nation controlled by the top 10-25% percent of people...Injustice...Injustice is the key to the revival of the Communist movement. When people begin to see injustice, and imbalance...they begin to look for solutions, and Communism comes VERY readily to hand. You saw this VERY clearly in the Guevara/Castro Coup to overthrow Batista in Cuba.

Please, continue WyrdeOne.

Executive action will replace democratic election...I mean, once the people lose their voice, there's really nothing to do...Which despite what many think, is more than possible.

It's certainly possible, but I've seen no evidence to suggest Russia is moving in that direction. I'll grant you the can, but you're going to have to work for the will.

Putin has just recently enacted serious changes to the soviet-era social welfare system, and though the move was unpopular, his people have stuck with him. Another sign that the system is not preparing for a backslide.

The cult of personality, it seems, is a worldwide phenomenon. The state has elected not to throw away ALL the trappings of the soviet system, but it has retained only those useful going forward. Strangely, the people of Russia have little trust or love for government officials, but Putin is almost universally respected and trusted.

One of they key policies of the Soviet Union was to keep their people under contol. The did this by fear, oppression, deception, and of course, the expulstion banishment of free-thinkers, and the 'Iron Curtain' policy, keeping new ideas from becoming common knowledge...what you say here raises the hackles on my neck, as to me, it indicates that one minor piece is in place, and that Russia truly may not be far from what we speak of.

First off, it's the goal of every country to control their citizens, that's the function of the state, to protect people from each other, and from other states. The difference is in severity. A minor deception is accepted in politics, in fact it's integral to the election process of most civilized nations. The other things you mentioned are the things that raise eyebrows and plant the seeds of revolution, and none of those things have come to pass.

There have been no banishments, no media blackouts, no murders of teachers. We're a long way away from that state of affairs.

Um, not to alarm anyone, but RELIGION, especially in the Orthodox church (in which every facet of the congregation's lives are affected by the church, especially that of those highly invovled..) Is at it's core another form of control. I dont' mean to offend, but organized religion (and you can see this throughout history), is a way in which leaders kept their population under control.

Sure it's a control mechanism, but it's not the one under discussion. You're preaching to the choir when you say religion is a control mechanism, but it fails to prove anything regarding a return to a soviet system. My point, exactly, is that the state has no need of the soviet central control system, because they've upgraded their tool chest to include several other ostensibly acceptable methods of controlling the populace.

The state, like any other organism, has a desire to survive. It will survive at the people's expense, if it must, but only as a last resort, because that sort of parasitism can lead to bloody revolt and very bad times for all involved. Generally the state seeks to be as much of a remora as possible, existing without injuring its host, the people.

Injustice is the key to the revival of the Communist movement. When people begin to see injustice, and imbalance...they begin to look for solutions, and Communism comes VERY readily to hand.

By this measure the USA is exponentially closer to a communist rebirth than Russia.

One of Putin's main goals is to limit the power of the oligarchs, and ostensibly return the wealth of Mother Russia to her people. Is it any wonder he's immensely popular with the poor? The environment is ripe for positive change, and to regress back to the old, failed system, would upset far too many people. It would be political suicide, and Putin doesn't strike me as particularly suicidal. Perhaps a little homicidal, but that's neither here nor there...

Firstly,

By this measure the USA is exponentially closer to a communist rebirth than Russia.

I'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole. I'll be hearing about it for ages. For some reason the words "Patriot Act" are on my tongue. No matter.

Secondly,

As to your feelings about what I've presented regarding religion...they are just that. Feelings. I don't understand why you don't recognize the orthodox church, or any church for that matter, as what it's being used for. Control. Karl Marx himself said that Religion was the Opiate of the masses. What better way to coerce people into doing what you want them to than to control their absolution? Is it secular? No. But recall what I stated above in my opening, that Russia herself doesn't have to fall back to being called 'The Soviet Union' in name, rather, that these definitions and systems of governance/control can be administered by any authority figure in Russia, INCLUDING that of the Church. Note that the topic reads, VERBATIM: "Russia can and will return to something like the Soviet control system" In my opinion, there is little difference between the rule of secular and non-secular societies, in that God himself sure won't be governing any theocracies, and control will fall, inevitably, to the social elite...oligarchs...aristocrats.

You stated how Putin has fought to reduce the power of these Oligarchs. I grant you that Russia is putting up a good facade of completely rebreathing life into her government...but you must also recognize that these Oligarchs haven't gone away completely...they've just...changed their names, put on suits, and ties, and shaved. They're still there, but they're not called 'Oligarchs' anymore.

But let me harp a bit upon terrorism, for that is where we now turn in this debate.

Chechnya. We've all heard of it, of the terrorists that hail from there...but, We all know what can happen when your country has terrorism on the brain, right? We can see it first hand here in America. It will create a division on the inside such that those on the one side will turn upon those on the other. With conflict like this, it can become quite easy to consolidate one's power. All it takes is a single, galvanizing event...for America it was 9/11, and we are now reaping what was sown, and see the waxing power of the Bush administration. Many don't see this as a problem, but almost as many do. In a country as unstable as Russia, what can result? We all saw the Star Wars prequels, right? Well, so then we can all see how it's possible, even probable. Now the only question that remains...is what 'attack' will touch this process off in Russia?


At the very core of this debate, there is a distinction to be made. A distinction between 'Communism' and the 'Soviet System of Control'. Pure Communism really had little to do with the Soviet Union. In truth, the Soviet Union was a Despotism, throughout the entirety of Stalin's rule. And while at it's core, there were many communist Ideals upheld, the truth of the matter is that if you look for communist ideals anywhere in the world you can find them, adopted here and there by various countries. Earlier I talked about Soviets, and what they were. Well, I can safely say that I believe, and I hope you do too, that the ruling party in Russia right now more resembles the Supreme Soviet than we are led to believe. Russia hasn't much changed...they've just changed the sign out front.

Now, I know you're looking at me like I'm crazy, so watch closely, I'm only going to demonstrate this once.

Just because it's not called 'Communism', or 'The Soviet Union', doesn't mean that the framework isn't there! We look too much without seeing. What lies beneath is always, ALWAYS what determines what's REALLY going on.

We would all agree that Power Corrupts, and that the Soviet Union was a corrupt state. Even from simple 2+2 logic, one can surmise that government can, and most likely will, become corrupt, over time.

Then again, if you'd still like to cling to the Bible and throw logic out the door, Russia will become one of the 12 kingdoms under the Antichrist.

But, however you want to look at it, it's pretty obvious to see Russia is already well on its way.


Well, there you have it. Continue, Wyrdone.

There's a Russian proverb that I think is particularly applicable to this argument. It goes "Once burned by milk, you'll blow on cold water."

The point of course, is similar to the American proverb "Once bitten, twice shy."

The Russian people have every reason to maintain their newfound freedom, and no reason to give it up. They've been through a phase of cultural evolution that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, and now, a decade and more later, they're still picking up the pieces, but wiser for the accident.

That's just it, they're cleaning up and changing the scenery, not looking for the super glue to put humpty dumpty back together again! Mistake made. Mistake recognized. Mistake avoided. Easy as 1, 2, 3.

The entire landscape has changed, and modern Russia is worlds away from the Soviet Union. I've showed in previous posts how the situation today is different than the situation in Soviet Russia (Economy, free speech, travel, communication, human rights, etc.,etc.) These motions in the right direction should inspire some faith in the future.

Corruption will always be a problem for every society. The presence of corruption in no way indicates a likelyhood of a return to the Soviet system. The absence of corruption in a human endeavor would be a truly momentous occasion, a freak of nature, let me know if you ever come across such a singular situation, I'd very much like to study the abomination.

With the current, evolving system, the Russian people have a shot at containing the corruption, because they now influence the political landscape directly, with votes and pressure from NGOs like churches and workers groups. The people are in the driver's seat, not any Supreme Soviet.

Communism promised power to the people, and it failed to deliver. The world watched it fail, we're wise to the faulty code now, it's apparent.

The Russian people are more conscious of the problem than most, because they were in the front row for the stage collapse. That makes them even less likely to embrace a system similar to the one that crashed and burned so spectacularly.

Russia could, under certain circumstances or extreme environmental conditions, return to a Soviet-style control system, that's a given (monkeys from my butt, chaos, yadda yadda). However, it's clear that those circumstances/conditions are not in place at this time. Furthermore, the soviet style system will not return until the will of the people makes it possible. The people have shown no indication that this is their desire. For the forseeable future, Russia will remain free of Soviet-style central government, and the people will remain, more or less, in control of their own lives.

Bottom line, if the people don't want it, it won't happen.
The facts show that the people don't want it.
Therefore: It won't happen.

Very well done job, guys. Off to the judges, now!

Excellent jobs to you both, Loki and Wyrdeone.


Wyrdeone has won by a large margin. Congratulations, now prepare to defend your position in the next round!

Some comments:

Good arguments from both sides

An interesting debate, with two interesting sides of argument. Both of you have stuck to your sides of the debate well and both of you have raised some interesting ideas.