French Surrender?

I was watching BBC the other day and there was a story on how the French public debt was beginning to have drastic effects on their economy so much that just paying the interest to finance the debt is the equivalent to what the french treasury receives in income-tax revenue. It seems to me that the french are starting to realize that they can't support there current way of life and that it's off the couch and back to work. Here's the link.

Back to work Frenchie

Is there anybody out there.There hasn't been any posts in this section for nearly two days

Maybe that's why they're trying to extort money from Britain.

Thank God somebodies taken an interest. Well anyways thanks Chris for your post while that may be part of the reason I think that this is mainly a smokescreen put up by chirac to draw attention from his humiliation in the referendum and to try to win back some voters his popularity has plummited recently. I think it's around 25-27%. Pretty bad or good depending on where you live

That might be part of it but their whole idea of europe is screwed. They imagine a USE taking on the USA. They also imagine that we'll all be happy little europeans working 35 hours a week (or is that just the french and tube drivers).

The best possible thing that could happen to europe would be Chirac and Schroder getting voted out of office.

You do realize that a title like "French surrender" will lead people to think that this is another thread about the French not being able to fight their battles, and that it may be the reason why not many people are posting, right?

Look, like any country, France has its economic woes. I think it would be unfair, however, to portray the French as slackers - besides, I highly doubt that the job situation is the sole culprit in this case. Like a lot of states - no matter whether it's North America or Europe we're talking about - the French state is undoubtedly rethinking its approach to social involvement. The tendency worldwide seems to be to abandon the "welfare state" model not in favor of American-style privatization, but a "partner state" model where the government establishes partnerships as much with the private sector as with the not-for-profit sector to create jobs and to stimulate community development.

France may have to re-evaluate its social and economic policies. Which European country doesn't?

I know a bit about French working practises.

A member of my family worked for a (US) company there for many years.

The Americans just didn't get it, they found it such a culture shock; they couldn't understand why the French didn't want their lives to revolve around their work (they were at opposite ends on on the old 'live to work' or 'work to live' adage).

The thing is the French are just different - just as the Italians and Greeks etc etc are.

......but considering the size of their economy and national wealth anyone trying to pretend they don't work is fooling themselves.

Europe is different to the Anglo-US idea; so, if you don't want to trade with them, fine, the thing is they do have wealth and there is serious money to be made there......

.....and even the critical Americans want a piece of that.

(I have to agree with Otts, the prospect of another bashing exercise put me off this one a bit)

[edit on 25-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

I think you are right Otts the title of the thread is a bit misleading to its contents I'll keep your criticism in mind.

And yes it is wrong to portray the French as slackers, however I've come away from the recent results of the French referendum and the recent EU budget summit that the French seem to want the best of both worlds that is an economy with jobs, high income, reduced cost of living, vacation time to boot and all that without having to worry about nasty foreign competition. Is all this possible, I doubt it. You have to also remember in todays globalized world you have to play by the same rules as the rest of the world(even the USA) and remember that those rules were written by liberal-market countries. From Britain in the 19th century through the US in the 20th century to todays asian giants can France and the rest of the EU compete against these economic giants with protectionist measures, Don't forget the WTO rules were also written reflecting the American view on the future of the world economy.

Sminkey while I know alot of people from your part of the world share your view of americans as work-aholics I would have to inform you that for in large part that is a falisy, sure we have more than are fair share of work-aholics but that comes along with an entrepreneurial culture its also why we have a comparatively low rate of unemployment(even in these difficult economic times) but around my family its pretty much a work to live lifestyle just ask my mom she recently was laid off after her employer went out of business, she looked at it is an extended vacation(she's been to San Francisco since and now is heading to Vegas in about a week). I think why people work so hard is they want the car to get the girl and then the house to get her to marry you and then a bigger house for the family and the kids college fund. I mean were not some mindless working society that work to make the billionaires richer we get quite a bit out of life, actually I wish I had a work-ethic like those people maybe if I had I'd actually be driving a Porsche or BMW instead of a beat up old Ford(god its a piece of
s!@#).

Originally posted by danwild6
Sminkey while I know alot of people from your part of the world share your view of americans as work-aholics

- I usually try not to generalise too much dan but I was referring to the people in my brothers company; they really did have a seriously tough time accepting that France (and the rest of Europe.......and in large part the world too for that matter, they are a very large global concern) just don't do it the way they think folks should.
I know that is partly company culture too but it very definitely stems from their roots in the USA.

My brother likes it though, they want their pound of flesh so to speak but the renumeration package is (to him) excellent and worth it.

Personally I'd not give up being around to see my kids grow up for anyone.

But, of course I know that not all of the USA is obsessed with working long hours.....similarly in the UK we have problems with a sane work/life balance; apparantly we work the longest hours in Europe but I'd lay odds that a hell of a lot of it is nothing to do with any uncoerced 'choice'.

(In fact that is one of the tragically funny things about the way any attempt by the EU to 'cap' a persons' 'normal' working hours is presented in our media, they roll out all the people they can find working ridiculously long hours, due to their own choice, and act as if that is how it is for everyone!
Never a word about people having to work long hours to afford the pretty ordinary things in life.....you know, having a life and run a car or take a holiday once a year. These are apparantly now to be considered 'luxury items' to be slaved away at 48hrs+ a week for.)

Well thats true Sminkey it does seem harder to get the ordinary things in life the working people in my country get the shaft far more than their fair share. Are unions have been losing power and influence since Reagan threatened to nationalize the airports. However in large part its our own fault I mean just about everytime a ballot initiative in my state or a law comes up in the congress it gets voted down why? Ironically enough not because some billionaire campaigns against it but because it is unpopular among the general population why? I think because in our culture just about everyone at one point in their lives believes that wealth is just around the corner and when they become wealthy they don't want the government to come with its hand out. I know that I'm ashamed to admit it but I would have to say I was one of those people. I guess you can say were conditioned through our mass media with rags to riches stories on how anybody can attain unimaginable wealth.

I agree dan, that's what I find so worrying about this attempt to paint the French/European viewpoint as 'crazy' and a 'bartering down' Anglo-US liberal economic viewpoint established as some kind of accepted 'orthodoxy'.

We are being screwed royally IMO.
The mere mention of unions has people turning off......this is what you get when a handful own the media outlets and so obviously formulate and push a particular agenda.

What was once affordable with one parent working now, for most (?), takes two and even then grandparents are being called in to help in a way their parents never were.

......and now the talk is of 40yr mortgages becoming the norm or the Japanese style 'inheritable mortgage' (at least they have the excuse of seriously limited land).

Then some talking head will come on and tell us all about how consumer goods are getting cheaper and cheaper!

The facts are (whether we care to accept them or not) that the wealth divide is growing (inside our countries and when the wealthiest and poorest countries are compared) and simply turning western countries into one big service industry losing any and all workers' rights in a futile attempt to 'compete' with the cheapest the world can offer is no answer at all, IMO.

I think the conceit that we all harbour (as you say the one where we're all going to be "rich" one day) is a major part of the problem, we've IMO been schooled into this like children and like all favourite dreams it's a hard one to let go of.
I don't go along with any kind of 'know your place' BS but previous generations did seem to have a more realistic grasp (at least at times) on a reason approach.

The main thing IMO is to inform people, informed educated people are a reasonable basis to expect reason from IMO, but that requires a free media.

I think we have a media that is actually pretty far from free, it's certainly far from diverse or informative on all the serious issues.
Even compared to how it was a couple of decades ago the difference is striking......and pretty scary actually, I think.

Oh it's very very cleverly and subtly done but I really do think a Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao couldn't dream of a mass-media as undiverse, conformative and 'mainstream' as almost all of ours is today (both US & UK......and spreading across Europe and beyond as we speak).

[edit on 27-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I know a bit about French working practises.

A member of my family worked for a (US) company there for many years.

The Americans just didn't get it, they found it such a culture shock; they couldn't understand why the French didn't want their lives to revolve around their work (they were at opposite ends on on the old 'live to work' or 'work to live' adage).

The thing is the French are just different - just as the Italians and Greeks etc etc are.

......but considering the size of their economy and national wealth anyone trying to pretend they don't work is fooling themselves.

Europe is different to the Anglo-US idea; so, if you don't want to trade with them, fine, the thing is they do have wealth and there is serious money to be made there......

.....and even the critical Americans want a piece of that.

(I have to agree with Otts, the prospect of another bashing exercise put me off this one a bit)

[edit on 25-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

It's the French who don't get it. They think that they can have a booming economy with high growth and that they can be prosperous, but they want to be lazy and work just 35 hours a week. The other day, I read that there's a factory somewhere in France whose workers work just 30 hours a wek! The French, and other Continental Europeans, have never been good at economics. In 2000, they said the EU will become the world's most competitive economy by 2010, but now that's not likely, because the Eu is the world's economic laughing-stock. They think the EU can get an economy that outperforms the US and other countries whilst not even wanting to work! They want to pay paid high slaries, whilst working only 35 hours a week!

France's 35-hour work week is not working. Compare France with Britain, with Europe's longest working hours, and the US, whose people are even more hardworking than the British. Between 1990 and 2001, the American economy grew by 75%, the British economy grew by 44%, and the French economic grew by a pathetic and laughable 8%.

[edit on 29-7-2005 by AdamB]

To Otts, what war has France won? NONE!!!! They did good with Napolean, but lost. England literally OWNED France for a couple centuries. Then Germany sneezed, France fell, they coughed, Framce fell again.

The greatest French people were from Canada! They were the only French people to ever win anything. Hell, they burnt the Whitehouse down, must be the beaver meat and maple syrup that gives them bravery. If Japan had invaded France, there would be no one left. It would be far worse then the Rape of Nanking for some of the Chinese still fought back, they didn't just roll over and surrender.

Anyways, I love the french, had a foriegn exchange student from there, the first woman I found with skin as thick as mine. I had such a good time annoying her/making fun of her cause she could dish it back out, sometimes better then me. But sadly she just proves the joke "How do you tell the difference between a frenchman and a french woman? French women have bigger b@ll$" Although, when I told her that joke she showed me she didn't have them either.

Anyways, Europeans are more laid back you could say. They aren't wound as tight as American workers are, why you rarely read of a worker going in and shooting everyone at work. At least none that I have heard.

Originally posted by AdamB
The French, and other Continental Europeans, have never been good at economics. In 2000, they said the EU will become the world's most competitive economy by 2010, but now that's not likely, because the Eu is the world's economic laughing-stock.

- I suggest a little reality check.

The EU is the 2nd largest economy in the world.

If that really is to be a "laughing stock" to you I suggest to adjust your hyperbole down a tad.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
England literally OWNED France for a couple centuries.

- Actually James if you want to go centuries back it was the other way around (and hence all the subsequent troubles).

The Normans came and "OWNED" England/Britain which is how come the English felt they had claim to French territory later on.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The Normans came and "OWNED" England/Britain which is how come the English felt they had claim to French territory later on.

The Normans weren't French were they..they were well...Norman

Thats what I've been led to believe.

Originally posted by UK Wizard
The Normans weren't French were they..they were well...Norman

Thats what I've been led to believe.

- The Normans held the French crown Wizard so whatever differences there might have been are really a little moot given the context, wouldn't you say?

It's about as meaningful and significant as Cornish people claiming to be different. Many of they themselves still do but they're still English.

The Normans were Norman, they were their own people, not French. That's like saying France owned Poland after Germany took over France along with Poland.

Yeah well whatever..... you need to say to keep those sad little French digs consistant.

Not my fault the only French to win anything was from Canada. Hell, look at hockey! A sport no could play, but French Canadians? Ice in their veins, blood in their eye, "Let's go kick some @$$!"

And again, the Normans owned them, not France. As given France didn't own Poland just because the same country that took Poland took them.

[edit on 19/8/05 by JAK]