In the end, who is right?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

First , we have tons of " Soft" evidence , enough to make a conviction in a court of law!

Are you sure about this bit?

I've read myriad personal stories and anecdotes, theories and assumptions, but I've seen very, very little evidence - soft or hard. Help me out here?

Second hand information and lack of physical evidence would make a conviction very, very difficult....

I'm still sitting on the fence on this entire issue, though I'm yet to see compelling evidence of the existence of alien life forms, although it's not outwith the realms of possibility for such evidence, if it existed, to have been squirrelled away by (insert government/agency/other party).

It seems outlandish though, to think that nobody - ever, anywhere - has ever been able to sneak, steal, borrow, or otherwise obtain, this hard evidence and get it out there in the public eye.

I'd also be interested in the claim made earlier, that there's more than enough proof that governments have taken/stolen evidence of alien contact. What is this proof?


One other thing. It's flawed logic to think "millions of stories mean that there must be truth to it". Remember, millions of us also thought the earth was flat, because of various stories related to travels and theories related therein.

And of course, that turned out to be false.

Well I would disagree , but I'm just one of those millions of people you mention.

So in that respect my logic is flawed , in your eye's.

Testimony is considered to be a form of evidence.

Proof is evidence that leaves one without doubt.

Eye-Witness testimony does not qualify as Proof, by that standard.

It seems outlandish though, to think that nobody - ever, anywhere - has ever been able to sneak, steal, borrow, or otherwise obtain, this hard evidence and get it out there in the public eye.

If I ask you to show me hard evidence that the B-2 Stealth Bomber exists, what would you show me ? Do you know someone that has a piece of a B-2 ? Do you think that someone can just steal some scap of Radar abosoring material from a B-2 ? Do you think our Millitary would allow this to happen?

I think all of would agree the B-2 Stealth Bomber exists , and yet very few , if anyone could provide "Hard " evidence , of that fact.

Although , "Soft" evidence to support our claim would be abundant.

[edit on 17-6-2005 by lost_shaman]

If I ask you to show me hard evidence that the B-2 Stealth Bomber exists, what would you show me ? Do you know someone that has a piece of a B-2 ? Do you think that someone can just steal some scap of Radar abosoring material from a B-2 ? Do you think our Millitary would allow this to happen?

Er....I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this question? The fact there are photographs, physical examples...doesn't really align itself well to your analogy.

B2 Strealth bomber

More B2 Stealth stuff

If you're implying that there's just as much evidence - of that nature - relating to aliens and UFOs....then by all means, just list the sources for me, so I can investigate myself! I'm all for investigation. Just not so trusting of anecdotal evidence.

Exaclty my point there is nothing in your links that I would consider "Hard" evidence.

I could give you this Link , and you can look at pictures ,and read things , neither your links , or mine offer "Hard" evidence.

Ok. The difference here is:

The images shown of the B2 cannot be reliably or realistically explained as being anything other than a B2. We have plans, blueprints, builds and examples of a B2, as a reference point.

The UFO photographs on the other hand, have no such reference points - what is a blurry object in a particular image can reasonably be explained by several theories. Is there a point of reference?

Can you see the difference in approach to evidence? With that in mind, is there any other evidence available?

There certainly was a time when you could find all sorts of people who would tell you the Earth is flat. Just like today when you can find all sorts of people to tell you Aliens do not exist, or at least have not been here.

(As an aside, always find it funny that people will say with passion 'there are no Aliens' which is pretty final... but then they tack on 'or at least they have not visited yet'. I believe that they know that they are wrong, so they tack on the second part.)

Both groups have 2 things in common, they are only relating what they have been TOLD, and they are wrong.

That is the difference, to disbelieve in all Alien contact you have to ignore everyone who says different. The difference is the sheer number of people with personal direct experience, not what they have been told.

Now if you are cynical you can ignore all these people, call them all names and go about your day. But if you believe that there are some honest people, 10%, 25%, whatever, then you are left with direct first-hand accounts that defy conventional explaination.

I am more than well aware of all other things we 'see' sometimes. I write off more than I should based on human error. But there are those cases where you cannot do that.

It is easy and safe to say 'I await proof'. It takes intellectual courage to say 'I believe in what is yet unproven', always has.

Everyone should realize that Betty and Barney Hill were a mixed race couple. Even today that is not an easy road, but at the time the Hills did it, well all I can say is they had guts. If I knew nothing else about them they would still have my respect. It is not easy to do something for Love that means a never-ending struggle just to do normal things that other people get to take for granted.

What they did, what they stood up for, is important, we should not limit ourselves to only people of our same race in matters of romance. We should be open to every possibility.

So I know these 2 people had courage. And when they related their tale it meant something.

I guess I just point to the Hills because so many of the people who have told UFO stories have backgrounds that would normally earn them points in truthfulness.

One thing I know for absolute certain, we will never, ever, prove that Aliens do not exist. That cannot be done, not today, not in a Century, or a Billions years of traveling through space. So either tomorrow we make contact or we keep on looking until we do. Alien life we have found, little tiny things that came here on a rock. So we know it is not all barren wasteland out there, that was a silly idea anyway.

A.T
(-)

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Ok. The difference here is:

The images shown of the B2 cannot be reliably or realistically explained as being anything other than a B2. We have plans, blueprints, builds and examples of a B2, as a reference point.

The UFO photographs on the other hand, have no such reference points - what is a blurry object in a particular image can reasonably be explained by several theories. Is there a point of reference?

Can you see the difference in approach to evidence?

With that in mind, is there any other evidence available?

Why can't I argue that B-2's don't exist? It could be a " Flying wing"!

The point I'm making is that you have no " Hard" evidence for B-2's that we know for a fact are real!

And yet you want someone to show you " Hard" evidence that some UFO's are ETV's.
I'm just as frustrated as everyone else on the evidence issue, more so than some , because I make the claim , that I have had an encounter with one!
Hard to " encounter " something that isn't real isn't it!
I know that I'm not insane , but you don't know that.

Therefore I would like to have evidence to shows that what I tell people I witnessed , was real.

I hope that one day we will all have that " Proof".

One member made a good point that I failed to cover. The member stated that I am dealing in absolute proof. Thats pretty hard to do so I will tone down my examples.

Lets go to UFO photos and video.

Now lets take a good case and one that people seem to believe is the real deal. I will use the battle of L.A. ufo case.

ufocasebook.com...

Case and point: A UFO event of mass proportion: a giant Alien spaceship hovering over one of our major cities, threatening our very existence.

Yes a massive sighting of a possible UFO that was fired at while countless people observed the craft at close range.

In a matter of a few short minutes, the entire southern area of California was looking to the skies, watching the intense spotlight beams converging on the giant invading UFO. The 37th's anti-aircraft guns helped light up the night, firing volley after volley at the large craft. Many eyewitness reports would state that the large object took many direct hits, but appeared undamaged. The 30+ minute barrage would send fragmented shells over homes, businesses, and citizens. In the aftermath six individuals were found dead from the spent and fragmented artillery shells.

How many photos of the event have you ever seen? This one most likely, or this one enhanced / not enhanced / negative etc.

30 minutes of gun fight and nobody seems to take pictures? Sure it was a dangerous situation, but are you going to say that nobody else snapped some shots?

Oh but the war!

As the giant UFO moved away, things began to get back to normal, as normal as things could get, considering the times. The military clampdown on Japanese citizens, and security restrictions on its native populace made this an unusual time. Had it not been for America being at war, news of this event would have gained more momentum. The lesson to be learned from this is simply that we must be ready at all times to defend our country, and our globe from any invading force that would take our freedom as we know it from us.

The witness quotes on this page are for and against people watching it. One moment they are observing it, then in shelter, and then again observing it etc.

"Wonder why they picked such a clear night for a raid?"

Now you see, possibly the best ever UFO case and yet we still cant back it up.

Where are the photos?

There have been countless cases of abductions and eye witness accounts of aliens on earth, people going as far as saying they seen the alien and frightened it off. Yet whenever there is a photo its sooner or later deemed a fake.

Alien autopsy videos? Fake. Interrogation videos? Fake.

In my opinion photographs are the only real evidence we have. We really have nothing physical. The only thing I can really think of was the metal recovered from roswell with the symbols etc.

What happened to that?

Now crop circles, if you believe them, can have proof to a certain extent. They can leave trace minerals that basically mean something weird went down.

But how many have been faked? We KNOW there are people faking them.

So you see the people claiming to see UFOs and such a good number of time turn out to be fraud and it only puts a bad name out there for everyone.

Do you really think the government is hiding it from you? The common citizen is no better than the government. At least they out right say nothing happened.

Whats worse, evidence that turns out to be fake or no evidence at all?

Another thing I should add. This goes out to all the people that tend to have encounters. I know there are some on this board.

Why dont you carry a camera with you wherever you go? Its not that hard. Even a cheap digital that fits in your pocket.

Do you understand that your proof could change the world?


Oh but I guess all sorts of excuses could prove my theory wrong.

YOU people prove to be the key to helping this mystery as those that want proof seem to never get it.

I have a camera with me at all times waiting for moments to capture things like this. I suggest you do to.

As for the government covering up info I have a few things to add.

Have you or anyone else you know of taken a photo of a supposed ufo?

Did the government confiscate that photo? Nah didnt think so.

What about abduction tales on this very board?

If these stories are true, well its proof and its being spread to the world.

Has the government hunted these people down and "silenced" them? Nah didnt think so.

I'll say it again, but people really are not thinking that much.

There is no evidence that proves the existance of alien lifeforms visiting our planet. There is evidence of many unusual and unexplained occurences, such as unexplained objects in the sky.

I'd like to ask everybody now, where do you get the existance of visiting aliens from that?

Do you use telepathy for example? Okay, now you'll have to prove the existance of telepathy. It is true that people have been able to do weird and unusual things with their brains, but they are all unexplained.. unless you can explain them.

I understand that there are things that exist beyond our thoughts, science, and comprehension. This is why I don't put limits on it, such as calling it an alien visitation with no doubts.

The only intellgent place to be in this discussion is on the fence. That is why, my answer to the topic is neither are right.

30 minutes of gun fight and nobody seems to take pictures? Sure it was a dangerous situation, but are you going to say that nobody else snapped some shots?

I am not even sure I understand how anyone could suggest that only one photo was taken. You know that would not be in line with common human nature. Therefore you must assume that there were others.

No one has seen any other photo from that event except different versions of the original.

Why?

Because that is the only photo that was published the next day. It could not be taken, but every other photo and negative that could be located in the city was removed.

Newspapers at the time reported that they felt some sort of 'censorship' was taking place on the whole subject of what happened that night.

So back in Washington, a bunch of people sat around and looked at a bunch of these photos. From that moment on it was an accepted fact in the halls of power that we were not alone in the Universe.


A.T
(-)

Lost-shaman....with all due respect, your argument just doesn't hold any water.

You can call a B2 jet "a piece of pink birthday cake" - this doesn't make it so. Don't misunderstand me - I'm the first to concede that not only do we not have a full understanding of the universe, but also we have no real clue as to who (or what) may or may not be living there too. But your requirements for what constitutes proof, and what doesn't, just don't add up. Thus, your passage about having enough evidence to (excuse my paraphrasing) "get a conviction in court" seems nonsensical.

In all honesty, I can't quite understand why you think there's even a vague similarity between the proof of (to use your own example) of a B2, versus proof of a UFO. Did I miss where you offered a point of reference for the latter (hey, it happens. I miss things sometimes)?

This is why I'm on the fence. There's not enough proof either way; much as I could tell you I'm really the daughter of Prince Charles, saying so doesn't make it true.

Out of sheer curiosity - what do you consider "hard" evidence?

So are you saying that a coverup was done on and entire city and its citizens or that a handfull of citizens told a half decent "story"?

As someone that "has encounters" , LOL, ( only one ) I can tell you that I enjoy taking pictures, have more than one camera, and wished I had a good picture!

It was simply impossible to anticipate such an event, and being caught off guard I didn't have a camera with me at the time. Sorry.

However , there are pictures similar to what I saw. ( FooFighters) They are all very poor pictures IMO.

I am hopeful that the Operation Prato pictures taken by the Brazilian Air Force will be released . The Eye-Witness testimony , and description of the pictures ( over 5,000 est. ) of the "Chupa- Chupas" sounds very similar to my encounter.

TBOLA happened 8 weeks after Pearl Harbor. The power of the US government was rather absolute at the time.

All they did was take photos away. There were no research groups to go interview the witnesses, nothing at all like what would happen today.

I have done a bit of searching on the newspaper response, and there are follow-up comments, editorials, but since the government had said 'war jitters' there was little to do. The War took over and ground TBOLA into unimportance.

No big cover-up, nothing hard to do.


A.T
(-)

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Lost-shaman....with all due respect, your argument just doesn't hold any water.

You can call a B2 jet "a piece of pink birthday cake" - this doesn't make it so. Don't misunderstand me - I'm the first to concede that not only do we not have a full understanding of the universe, but also we have no real clue as to who (or what) may or may not be living there too. But your requirements for what constitutes proof, and what doesn't, just don't add up. Thus, your passage about having enough evidence to (excuse my paraphrasing) "get a conviction in court" seems nonsensical.

In all honesty, I can't quite understand why you think there's even a vague similarity between the proof of (to use your own example) of a B2, versus proof of a UFO. Did I miss where you offered a point of reference for the latter (hey, it happens. I miss things sometimes)?

This is why I'm on the fence. There's not enough proof either way; much as I could tell you I'm really the daughter of Prince Charles, saying so doesn't make it true.

Out of sheer curiosity - what do you consider "hard" evidence?

Don't misunderstand me , I only use the B-2 as an example that the Military would not let you , say go in and take a peice of wing , smuggle it out to the public.

I would consider a piece of wing " Hard " evidence.

ev·i·dence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v-dns)
n.
A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

Edit:

proof ( P )
n.
1.The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
2.
a) The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
b) A statement or argument used in such a validation.

3.
a) Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.

b) The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.

[edit on 17-6-2005 by lost_shaman]

Trying to prove/disprove UFOs. ETs, paranormal, PSI etc. on the internet is folly.

However in the USA there are "hotspots". The one I am most familiar with is the San Luis valley in So. Colorado. Do some real reasearch and go outside. In my youth I was a cynic, arrogant, skeptical, closed minded spiritual bigot. But after spending some time in "The Valley" I had to admit that there are things that can't be quantified or Qualified by science as we know it. I don't know if my experience was paranormal, UFO related, mind control or PSI. Just that it was real and it knocked the cynacism and arrogance out of me. The experience was so frightening and strange; it changed me in a very fundalmental way.

I have no interest in satisfying internet voyeurs. I am not writing any books, I have nothing to sell. I know I can't convince anyone of anything.

The challenge to those folks that like to call others "wackos" "wingnuts" "ufo crazies" or other deragotory terms; TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER, go somewhere OUTSIDE and do some firsthand research. Might I suggest the American Southwest. Even if you don't have a mind blowing experience; you will enjoy a beautiful part of this great land.

I offered to show the well known skeptics on this forum [we know who they are] the Valley and its accompaning high strangeness. No response!!
As Sen. John McCain said: "all hat; no cattle"

"nothing so gladdens the heart as when a fool abandons his folly"

Another piece of factual evidence I was thinking about was that one roswell photo. The one where the guy is crouched down by the "balloon" wreck and is holding a memo / document.

Well the document is half facing the camera and when enhanced tends to come up with some nice evidence.

I myself have viewed the image. (it can be found online)

Its called the Ramey Memo.

ufocasebook.com...

Ive seen a very high resolution scan of it too and its online but I dont have it right now. Its pretty clear to see some words but anything could be made out of it.

This is my opinion is some of the better proof we have. But again who is right? The memo doesnt conclude that yep it was a ufo either.

Do you still think the government isnt telling the truth?

Originally posted by whaaa
Trying to prove/disprove UFOs. ETs, paranormal, PSI etc. on the internet is folly.

Well, that's pretty much the same for attempting to prove or disprove just about anything on ATS

That's why we're here - to discuss, offer theories, and try to find evidence if such exists.

There are hotspots of unexplainable "things" (for want of a more inclusive term) just about everywhere. Ever been to Death Valley? Wales? Hadrian's Wall, on the English/Scottish border?

All very, very beautiful places with certain areas that give some people a feeling, or an impression, that can't be explained rationally. Does this mean there's a supernatural or alien energy at work? Perhaps. And perhaps not.

That's why we're here. To discuss.

Originally posted by whaaa
Trying to prove/disprove UFOs. ETs, paranormal, PSI etc. on the internet is folly.

However in the USA there are "hotspots". The one I am most familiar with is the San Luis valley in So. Colorado. Do some real reasearch and go outside. In my youth I was a cynic, arrogant, skeptical, closed minded spiritual bigot. But after spending some time in "The Valley" I had to admit that there are things that can't be quantified or Qualified by science as we know it. I don't know if my experience was paranormal, UFO related, mind control or PSI. Just that it was real and it knocked the cynacism and arrogance out of me. The experience was so frightening and strange; it changed me in a very fundalmental way.

I have no interest in satisfying internet voyeurs. I am not writing any books, I have nothing to sell. I know I can't convince anyone of anything.

The challenge to those folks that like to call others "wackos" "wingnuts" "ufo crazies" or other deragotory terms; TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER, go somewhere OUTSIDE and do some firsthand research. Might I suggest the American Southwest. Even if you don't have a mind blowing experience; you will enjoy a beautiful part of this great land.

I offered to show the well known skeptics on this forum [we know who they are] the Valley and its accompaning high strangeness. No response!!
As Sen. John McCain said: "all hat; no cattle"

"nothing so gladdens the heart as when a fool abandons his folly"

Please, do share your experiences.

I would like to hear them.