Is the government hiding the real state of the economy?

Yes, but I question whether the army would follow ol' George W. into war against our own citizens. It would be civil war within the army as well as within the country.

I buy the bit about making money shorting stocks. But if you look back at the history during the Great Depression, those who had plenty of money were forced to hand over a major chunk of it to the government to fund programs for the unemployed.

Reading first hand accounts of what it was like during the Great Depression is very educational about the pressures a society faces when under enormous economic strain.

The biggest problem I see with the Republicans is that they truly believe that when we descend into an economic abyss, nothing should be done to relieve the suffering it causes. That's a certain trip to civil war, imo.

Where2Hide

Contrary to what we learned in primary school, the 13th Amendment to the Constitution did not abolish slavery in 1865. The purpose of this amendment was to limit slavery to those who had been convicted of crimes.

Great numbers of newly freed blacks were then “convicted” and forced to work without pay in state prisons. This simply transferred the ownership of slaves from private parties to the state. Today, with the advent of private prisons and joint-venture prison factories, this ownership is shifting back to the private sector

www.greenleft.org.au...

Here's a links page with some interesting information:
web.jjay.cuny.edu...

I particularly liked this report.
eastbay.bizjournals.com...

It appears that prisons benefit the federal government and private corporations, but do not help the towns that they're built in. This is in keeping with the screw the little guy attitude that we're so familiar with.
www.iastate.edu...

Here's another links page with a wealth of information
www.lib.msu.edu...

I particularly like these two articles.
www.paulsjusticepage.com...
www.motherjones.com...

That last link came from www.motherjones.com... which was featured on the last links page.

Most articles don't collect the full scale of the issue though, they stop at prisons. Truth is, the system has deep roots into law and politics, especially of the southern variety... Politics is where lawyers go when they die...

I heard somewhere that there are more lawyers in school every year, than there are lawyers practicing. That is some indication of how many people are employed just in that function. Then you have parole officers and street cops, federal alphabet agencies and private corporations, contractors for prison construction and food distributors. There's the prisoner transport micro-economy which employs tens of thousands of people.

Prison employees are a big enough demographic, but when you add in the associated parties, who depend on the prisoners for their existence..the scope of the problem becomes clear.

Slavery is slavery, no matter what they tell you.

Edit: This problem has nothing to do with left and right, republican and democrat. That's a distraction, two colorful juggling balls intended to keep y'all occupied. It's worked successfully I'd say, nobody has called out the hands in public.

[edit on 8-6-2005 by WyrdeOne]

by AL MARTIN

There was an interview on CNBC of the renowned funds manager Julian Robertson. He is one of the greatest of the old-timers. 53 years on the Street. He manages the Robertson group of funds. They used to call him, still do call him ‘Never Been Wrong’ Robertson. He has predicted every economic cycle, every debacle, every bull market, and every bear market.

Of course, he’s a very old man now. But his reputation on the Street is like nothing you could imagine. When the segment of his interview was through, his comments alone took the Dow Jones down 50 points. Just on his comments alone. That’s how powerful this man’s reputation is.

Robertson was actually a teary-eyed, an old man. When Ron Insana asked him about his predictions, he said that he’s worried about the speculative bubble in housing and the fact that more than 1/4 of all consumer spending is now sustained by that bubble, plus the fact that 20 million citizens could lose their homes in a collapse of the speculative bubble in housing, and that the Fed and, indeed, central banks worldwide would act in concert out of desperation to reinflate the global economy in the process, creating an inflationary spiral unheralded in the economic history of the planet.

Insana then asks, “Where does it end?” And he said, “Utter global collapse.” Not simply economic collapse; complete disintegration of all infrastructure and of all public structures of governments. Utter, utter collapse. That the end is collapse of simply epic proportion.

In 10 years time, he said, whoever is still alive on the planet will be effectively starting again.

Source: AlMartinRaw.com

I think the key statement in that scenario is 'whoever is still alive when it's over.' One thing that's virtually guaranteed is that if there were massive economic collapse, we'd be killing each other in the streets.

I know this is probably a big faux pa here, but does anyone else find it hauntingly similar the road it looks like we are going down is a lot like what Titor said? I understand(or gathered) that he has been discredited?, but still, does make one stand back and go hmmmmmm.

For the Government to hide the true state of our economy, they would have to know what that state is.....

I don't see how the could.

I heard on the news last night that close to a quarter of the homes being bought are in the interest only category. How many of those people are buying a house they really can't afford now, gambling that the their salary will raise (how many of us has seen any significant increase in our wages the past few years?), or, if that doesn't happen, the overinflated real estate market will continue to inflate?

Then there's the large number of people who have refinanced or taken out their first mortage with what is now a cheap variable rate. It is probably these people that the financial community is thinking of when they insist on keeping those interest rates so low instead of following Greenspan's lead and increasing them that modest amount that Greenspan suggests. I don't think they can hike that rate much higher without causing alot of other problems, just as bad, or worse as they have now. Individual debt, business debt, and the national debt are all at an all time high! and well, an increase in that interest rate will cause a large portion of that debt to incur more interest fees in it's monthly payment.

And, yet, with the interest this low, there is really not much interest in placing your money into the bank account for any length of time is there? Our Government's......federal, state, and local, all seem to want to borrow more and more of that money, but well, ain't many actually putting that much into the bank for them to take out. Sooner or later, it seems that they would have to increase that rate some...

and well, since the banks aren't really offering much in the line of interest on savings.....people are looking for other investment options, which after every stock market decline, real estate seems to be thier avenue of choice.
They ARE creating a bubble in the housing market....
and well, can someone please explain to me how we can have more shares of a stock being sold on any giving day on wall street than what the company issued? if we called an end to the game today, just where would it all stand? would we have more owners of stocks than we do shares?

sort selling throws the numbers off....as does coming up with new and not so wise mortgages.....as does having your government, businesses, and individuals buying so much unaffordable stuff.......as does all the grants and other assistance given to new businesses when they start up, especially when it's offering services that are already oversupplied in the community. .....

our image of prosperity, all the "growth" you see raising up around you....is it real, or is it us just digging ourselves deeper into the hole?

and, I didn't even mention all the voodoo accounting that goes on to make the balance sheets appear more favorable.


how can you tell what type of state our economy is in?


of course, all these data thefts might just bail us out.....they steal all of our identities and create a big enough mess, well, they just might decide it aint worth sorting out.....some of us might come out ahead.

[edit on 10-6-2005 by dawnstar]

Where2Hide2006 says:

There was an interview on CNBC of the renowned funds manager Julian Robertson. He is one of the greatest of the old-timers. 53 years on the Street. He manages the Robertson group of funds. They used to call him, still do call him ‘Never Been Wrong’ Robertson. He has predicted every economic cycle, every debacle, every bull market, and every bear market.

Robertson is a great hedge funds guy, but he's not in the same league as someone like, say, George Soros; and he made a few mistakes, as his handling of copper shorts from back ten years ago show.

I've been listening to gloom-'n'-doomers for over thirty years now, and everyone of 'em so far has been wrong.

This is really simple if you think about it in common sense terms. Home price can’t stay high like they are in rural areas I say rural because places where people desire to live like Florida will always have good market value supply and demand. What you’re seeing in the rural areas this year are more homes on the market then last, with sold homes basically cutting in half, hence more homes on the market. Now booming areas this is not happening yet but it won’t ever happen there first. The basic thing is American companies are outsourcing jobs fine. But they are not lowering the price just making more profits. If you’re not growing you’re dieing in the American business model. With American salaries shrinking, and shrinking, and good jobs harder, and harder to come by something has to give. Expect a 20-30% house price reduction in non-hot areas in the next 3 years. People don’t have money to buy homes thus a bubble. Everything has raised in price in the last 5 years considerably your gas your groceries your cable but our salaries are not. Not to mention in the last 3 years the value of our dollar has taken a major hit this is coming home to roost. Yes people have been declaring for years the sky is falling but truly right now the sky is falling and no one is listening to chicken little anymore and spending like mad.

[edit on 11-6-2005 by DiRtYDeViL]

``
no...

i really think that the Gov't is as in-the-dark & perplexed as any 'speculator' in the market.

the only 'control' & direction the Gov't (by proxy) has is in Chairman Greenspan & the 'fed rate' of interest charged for monies.

petro-dollars, Gold, are just 2 facets of the diamond (which is actually cut-glass or paste! & not a valuable stone!)

Originally posted by AWingAndASigh
The government says we're not in recession. Then WHY does everything seems so depressed? Could the government be hiding the true state of the economy for political purposes?

They couldn't hide it if people paid attention.

They couldn't hide it if people paid attention.

They could hide critical bits of information that would prevent us from seeing the whole picture. The economy is so complex that you need a lot of data to have a good idea of where it's headed. If they hide all the good data, we're kind of left with a contridiction between what we see and what they're saying. Kind of like what's going on now.

If the corporate media would actually talk about something of import, for a change, and with a modicum of depth, things would be much different.

If the corporate media would actually talk about something of import, for a change, and with a modicum of depth, things would be much different.

Yes, but corporations are all feeding from the trough, even those in the media.

I was watching a news show last night that interviewed one of the reporters for PBS who has been seriously attacked for having a 'liberal bias' because he did a show on how some small towns in mid-America are really struggling economically. Seems Bush and Co. approached the head of PBS about their liberal leanings because of the show. I think I read somewhere that funding for PBS has been reduced for the same reason.

If the administration is cracking down on reporting by using pressure tactics, then I don't see how the truth can get out. That's the nature of a cover-up.

It's not just the administration cracking down. The shareholders want their profits and the head honchos ain't gonna do anything to deprive them of that; especially if that means digging around in political/capitalist dirt. That would be stepping on too big a set of toes.

Why don't you face reality , America is only rich because it borrowed money to finance its arms race. Its like a credit card country and you have to pay back on your borrowing. Looks to me you cant do that so someones going to suffer.

It's not just the administration cracking down. The shareholders want their profits and the head honchos ain't gonna do anything to deprive them of that; especially if that means digging around in political/capitalist dirt. That would be stepping on too big a set of toes.

Agreed. This seems to be a steadily increasing phenomenon. I've been around a while, and I don't recall the 'fear' being quite so intense before.

I have to wonder what the long term impact of that 'fear' might be.

One thing seems certain - we are less likely to know what's going on than ever before.

With recent efforts to try to exert some legal control over blogs, I have to wonder if there isn't serious interest in Washington in controlling the free exchange of speech and ideas. For what?

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
Why don't you face reality , America is only rich because it borrowed money to finance its arms race. Its like a credit card country and you have to pay back on your borrowing. Looks to me you cant do that so someones going to suffer.

A lot of someones are definitely gonna suffer when the bill comes due. And eventually, it will. That's why I think the media is aiding and abetting the government in not levelling with the people.

A lot of someones are definitely gonna suffer when the bill comes due. And eventually, it will. That's why I think the media is aiding and abetting the government in not levelling with the people.

I've been wondering if the push for Social Security reform isn't an effort to somehow get around paying out those treasury bills SSA has invested it's surplus in - what the heck will happen to the budget when THOSE bills have to be paid?

All one has to do is take a look at the continuing decline in real wages over the last 30 years for the average American worker.

This couple with dramatic health care costs, the government mountain of debt taking a great portion of your taxes therefore no government investment is able to take place, rising fuel prices, rising college tuition, etc and someone asks if the government knows?

Just ask middle class America.

I used to not be a very big fan of Pat Buchanan. However, I'm becoming more convinced that he is right with his "peasants with pitchforks" talk. It won't be long before the 85% of America that is getting the shaft turns towards the gated communities of the "well off" demanding their money back.

The banks could pull the rug out of this country within 24 hours if they wanted their loans back. It's not American banks either friends.