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no other country has such extensive links to the saudi dictatorship.
Thats why Crown Prince Abdullah is listed as the worlds fifth worse dictator then?
They may be holding very limited elections for the first time in 40 years but Women may not vote or run for office.
Thas rubbish, the saudi dictatorship may be publically saying that but they've barely have control over their armed forces who mainly support terrorist groups such as al queda.
How about the 1.5 Million iraqi children killed as a direct result of US sanctions on Iraq and the US illegally bombing hospitals, water treatment plants and power stations (which incidentally are war crimes!) in the 1991 Gulf war?
Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
]Not true at all. Saudi Arabia, along with other Middle Eastern nations, have made progress over the years and will continue to do so.
The Saudi government is hated by groups like Al Qeada because of their ties with America, and the only official support they've received from them were most likely bribes to keep them off their backs.
Since 9/11, even that's stopped. How many shoot outs with Al Qeada operatives have been reported? I've seen accounts of casualties from the Saudi military.
They aren't an ideal partner, but they aren't as bad as you make them out to be.
Originally posted by arnold_vosloo
How about the 1.5 Million iraqi children killed as a direct result of US sanctions on Iraq and the US illegally bombing hospitals, water treatment plants and power stations (which incidentally are war crimes!) in the 1991 Gulf war?
Newsflash: Wahhabism remains the exclusive, state religion in the Saudi Kingdom.
The boat used to attack the Cole & kill 17 of my Navy brothers & sisters was purchased in Saudi Arabia and the attack planned by a scumbag of the United Arab Emirates.
Saudi princess Haifa al-Faisal funneled money to Saudi 9/11 hijackers Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi who then slit stewardess's throats before slamming American Airlines Flight 77 & it's innocent passengers into the Pentagon.
NSA possesses communications intelligence of A.Q. Khan's nuclear smuggling ring selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia
They're not are allies, they just feed us lipservice and apply minimal effort for only the sake of keeping up appearances. For they know that America is willing to put a blindfold on vigilance when it comes to preserving their economy & maintaining their lifestyles.
Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Newsflash: Wahhabism remains the exclusive, state religion in the Saudi Kingdom.
Your wording is far too harsh. What's your real point? Wahhabism isn't much different then the rest of Islam on the outside. It's not anymore extreme.
I Don't Think So, for more than two centuries, Wahhabism has been Saudi Arabia's dominant faith.
The severe simplicity of the Wahhabis has been remarked by travellers in central Arabia. They attack all luxury, loose administration of justice, all laxity against infidels
www.globalsecurity.org...
The boat used to attack the Cole & kill 17 of my Navy brothers & sisters was purchased in Saudi Arabia and the attack planned by a scumbag of the United Arab Emirates.
Once again, what's your point? They could have bought it anywhere. I never denied there is strong anti-American/Western sentiment in Saudi Arabia, but that exists all over the Middle East. Al Qeada's original founders were Saudis who went to Afghanistan to fight against the Russians.
From former CIA Director James Woolsey's Freedom House:
The Wahhabism that the Saudi monarchy enforces, and on which it bases its
legitimacy, is shown in these documents as a fanatically bigoted, xenophobic and sometimes violent ideology. These publications articulate its wrathful dogma, rejecting the coexistence of different religions and explicitly condemning Christians, Jews, all other non-Muslims, as well as non-Wahhabi Muslims. The various Saudi publications gathered for this study state that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping such “infidels” in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations. They instill contempt for America because the United States is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. Some of the publications collected for this study direct Muslims not to take American citizenship as long as the country is ruled by infidels and tells them, while abroad, above all, to work for the creation of an Islamic state. The Saudi textbooks and documents spread throughout American mosques preach a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel.
www.freedomhouse.org...
I'd like to see some proof of this. The only time I've heard of the Saudi government giving money to Al Qeada was simply to prevent attacks. The Saudi government is probably the most hated by Al Qaeda in the Middle East. They've basically said so themselves. The fact that they let us station troops in their nation for a decade made them the main target.
Saudi officials acknowledged yesterday that Princess Haifa al-Faisal, the wife of Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan, gave money to the family of Osama Bassnan, a Saudi citizen, when they were in the United States. One of Bassnan's friends, Omar al-Bayoumi, helped two of the Sept. 11 hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, with introductions to the Muslim community when they arrived in San Diego in 2000. Al-Bayoumi hosted a party and helped Almihdhar and Alhazmi with rent payments.
Bassnan was deported to Saudi Arabia Nov. 17 and his wife was deported to her native Jordan the same day, both on visa violations, officials said.
Fifteen of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, and questions have arisen about whether Saudi government officials or private foundations may have helped fund terrorists and may still be doing so.
The possible link comes just as the United States is trying to line up Saudi Arabia's help for a likely confrontation with Iraq.
The checks were issued from the princess's account at Riggs Bank in Washington. The Saudi Embassy called the president of Riggs Friday night after learning of the FBI investigation from media inquiries.
Bank officials opened the bank so embassy employees could spend the night going through the checks that had been issued from her account. Officials were still going through the records to see if any checks sent to the Bassnan family were endorsed over to Bayoumi. Some of the checks, officials said, were endorsed over to third parties -- perhaps members of the Bassnan family.
A congressional panel investigating the Sept. 11 attacks took note of the payments from the princess while reviewing FBI files, sources said. Panel members were not satisfied the bureau had fully examined the money trail there and asked the bureau for more information.
The bureau and the Justice Department had firmly resisted the committee's request to declassify the information. They now say they cannot comment because it is a matter of continuing investigation.
www.washingtonpost.com...
NSA possesses communications intelligence of A.Q. Khan's nuclear smuggling ring selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia
Have proof?
NSA possesses communications intelligence that proves the A.Q. Khan nuclear smuggling ring in Pakistan was also selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia.
www.onlinejournal.com...
They're not are allies, they just feed us lipservice and apply minimal effort for only the sake of keeping up appearances. For they know that America is willing to put a blindfold on vigilance when it comes to preserving their economy & maintaining their lifestyles.
Tell me, what does Saudi Arabia get out of screwing America? I highly doubt the men at the top there are big idealists. Why would they bite the hand that feeds them?
Without American support, the Saudi government would most likely have been toppled already. Our weapons and soldiers keep them in power.
You can candycoat preferred dictatorships all you want. The House of Saud love our money, not our culture. They're treacherous scumbags who only strike out feebly against small factions that threaten themselves and would topple their anti-democratic regime, all while continuing to fund the Islamic extremist fringe Wahhabists who focus primarily on undermining the west and it's interests.
[edit on 30-5-2005 by Vajrayana]
The severe simplicity of the Wahhabis has been remarked by travellers in central Arabia. They attack all luxury, loose administration of justice, all laxity against infidels
The Wahhabism that the Saudi monarchy enforces, and on which it bases its
Saudi officials acknowledged yesterday that Princess Haifa al-Faisal, the wife of Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan, gave money to the family of Osama Bassnan, a Saudi citizen, when they were in the United States. One of Bassnan's friends, Omar al-Bayoumi, helped two of the Sept. 11 hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, with introductions to the Muslim community when they arrived in San Diego in 2000. Al-Bayoumi hosted a party and helped Almihdhar and Alhazmi with rent payments.
Fifteen of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, and questions have arisen about whether Saudi government officials or private foundations may have helped fund terrorists and may still be doing so.
NSA possesses communications intelligence that proves the A.Q. Khan nuclear smuggling ring in Pakistan was also selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia.
You can candycoat preferred dictatorships all you want. The House of Saud love our money, not our culture. They're treacherous scumbags who only strike out feebly against small factions that threaten themselves and would topple their anti-democratic regime, all while continuing to fund the Islamic extremist fringe Wahhabists who focus primarily on undermining the west and it's interests.
Quite the source you've got for this...I was kind of looking for something a little more credible, especially since you're talking about what the NSA knows.
Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
What is with American patriots and their lack of perspective???
Yea, how dare us dumb ignorant Americans not realize that our president is the same as Lil' Kim. I mean, look at how many babies they've killed to control the population, or the number of children who are forced to fight over pieces of rice (given to us by nations like Japan) just to survive...
Wayne Madsen is a Washington, DC-based investigative journalist and nationally-distributed columnist. He served at the National Security Agency during the Reagan administration.
Interesting, I don't see you providing zilch to support your whirlwind view. Just another Saudi apologist trying to create diversion from the real funders of this war.
Those are the ones that believe that you have to mimic Hitler's every step before you can be considered similar in ideals or you have to kill babies out in the open on an alter as Kim must do before you can be considered evil
Please, I'm sure Kim isn't starting wars in other countries to close the gap between business and politics either, no he's hurting his people in a much more obvious way, a way that you can easily point your finger at without having to understand in detail. The problem with these ignorant dumb Americans are that they won't do the work to discover the problems within their own country, they are too busy pointing the finger at easy targets offshore.
How about lack of Flu shots for one? There's a 50 million flu shot shortage for America thanks to Bush and the flu kills over 40,000 Americans every year but NO, that's probably someone elses fault right? Only Kim Jong Il could have such blatent regard for the lives of his citizens.
Get perspective next time you get milk because you are sounding like a dumb ignorant American
Yes there are problems overseas but fix your own before you meddle in others. Your sh-t does stink, the rest of the world can smell it.
Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Similliar in ideals? What does Bush share in common with Hitler? Care go give some real examples?
And you have absolutely no examples of Bush's administration ordering the deaths of small babies. The very best you could come up with is how many Iraqis have died, or something along those lines, yet that would have to ignore the fact that we are still helping the nation of Iraq in the longrun by establishing a free and democratic state.
Even if Bush had money in mind when he started this war, it doesn't matter. You know why? Because it helps the Iraqi people in the longrun, as well.
You aren't even or wrong just because you do something that you benefit from.
How is this actually Bush's fault? I'm sure he called someone up and said I demand you hold back on flu shots for the American people...
And it should not be the government's job to provide flu shots to the people, but the private sector. America is still officially a capitalist nation.
"Get perspective next time you get milk because you are sounding like a dumb ignorant American"
It's better then being an ignorant socialist liberal who has no understanding of history or the present.
And the rest of the world can do nothing but run its mouth while America does whatever it wants.
That's because they are in America's sphere of influence. Go take a look at the Sudan. Mostly European powers preventing anyone from acting there, along with China. The French have sold weapons to the Sudan. Why? They have oil interests.
France is hated throughout Africa, almost as bad as we are in the Middle East. The recent flare of violence in the Ivory Coast showed that.
I actually believe I know the little list you're talking about. It's completely arbitrary and meaningless. Didn't they put China's government in the top five, as well? It's ridiculous, and politically driven more than anything.
Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment
Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials.
China continued to use the global “war on terrorism” to justify its crackdown on the Uighur community in Xinjiang.
Killings by security forces and armed groups escalated, exacerbating the already dire human rights situation in the country.
Dozens of people, including peaceful critics of the state, were arrested and over two dozen suspected in connection with the “war on terror” were detained following their forcible return by other countries.
Allegations of torture were reported and flogging, which constitutes a cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment and may amount to torture, remained a routine practice.
Um, how does this compare to most nations in the world who have no elections, and persecute their women in the same ways?
women still face extreme forms of discrimination and restriction on their basic human rights." Amnesty International said in its report "Gross human rights abuses against women" released today.
Discrimination against women touches virtually all aspects of their lives including family life, decision making, employment, education and the justice system. It impacts upon and compounds the wide range of human rights violations commonly reported in Saudi Arabia.
Women can not walk alone even in their own neighbourhood without the fear of being stopped, beaten or detained particularly by the religious police as suspected moral offenders.
For instance they are not allowed to go anywhere, or leave the country without a male guardian
Really?
Highlights the string of terrorist attacks against Saudi Arabia recently:
news.bbc.co.uk...
Saudi forces fight militants who try and attack American consulate:
news.bbc.co.uk...
Your signaling out of Saudi Arabia is completely unjustified.
Since when were they "US" sanctions? Last I checked, they were put on by the UN. There wouldn't have been any need for them had America's European allies simply agreed to inavde and finish off Saddam.
And the situation wouldn't have been like that if Saddam simply wasn't greedy. He was hoarding away food and money while his people starved.
The United States is knowingly violating Article 54 of the Geneva Convention which prohibits any country from undermining "objects indispensable to the survival of (another country's) civilian population," including drinking water installations and supplies.
One document, written soon after the bombing, warned that sanctions would prevent Iraq from importing "water treatment replacement parts and some essential chemicals" leading to "increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease."
Another document lists the most likely diseases: "diarrheal diseases (particularly children); acute respiratory illnesses (colds and influenza); typhoid; hepatitis A (particularly children); measles, diphtheria, and pertussis (particularly children); meningitis, including meningococcal (particularly children); cholera (possible, but less likely.)"
On August 2nd, 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait, an action that led to the Persian Gulf War, the largest military offensive since World War II. On Jan. 16th, a coalition of countries, led by the United States and England began an assault on Iraq, which killed as many as 150,000 to 200,000 Iraqis. Ten years later, over 1.5 million people have died in Iraq.UNICEF says that 5,000 Iraqi children die every month due to the sanctions and the effects of the depleted uranium weapons used in Iraq.
Immediately after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, 500,000 American soldiers were sent to Saudi Arabia, the stage being set for the Persian Gulf War, which started on Jan. 16th. In the next 42 days, 110,000 aerial sorties dropped 88,000 tons of bombs on Iraq. Over 150,000 Iraqis were killed. The U.S. media was kept from reporting this action. We were told that the air strikes were surgical in nature, hitting only military targets. This was not true. We systematically destroyed Iraq's infrastructure, its water systems, food storage, electrical, sewer and transportation systems were all taken out. There was very little if no resistance from the Iraqi military. This was a slaughter! U.S. General Schwarzkopf says we could have taken Baghdad, but Bush ordered a halt. The Iraqi opposition, who had been encouraged to overthrow Hussein, was given no help at all, allowing Hussein to defeat them and stay in power.
"To dismantle the imperialistic theology of good and bad, I identified 10 levels of comparison between the U.S. imperialist system and Hitler’s short-lived empire: 1) Imperialism, 2) militarism, 3) pattern of military occupation, 4) pattern of violence, 5) manifestoes, 6) system of government, 7) structure of political power, 8) romantic nationalism, 9) propaganda and indoctrination, and 10) statements of intent."
It's your opinion that America is helping Iraq in the 'longrun'. That's not factual evidence either. It only stands IF you believe the retoric from the whitehouse as to why your in Iraq thou if you look at the damage in Iraq, the quality of health and the billions of dollers gone missing, there's a LONG road ahead until any form of 'help' comes to the forground. Your opinion is ideological, not factual. In the longrun, Iraq could be ten times the hell hole it is now aswell, there's much more evidence supporting that ideology.
Again, your ASSUMING this is helping Iraqi's in the longrun, there's no proof of that. The country is on the verge of civil war, it's health is WORSE than under Saddam and thanks to the DU America has dropped on the country, the Cancer rate has risen 10 fold. How is that helping in the longrun??
How is that helping again? That's not even helping Americans who will have to forfit more to fill the funding hole this has left. This is only ONE example of many.
your obviously not one to believe the government works for the people
"Bush should be doing one thing right now: As Dr. Marcia Angell, author of the book "The Truth About the Drug Companies," urges, "The government should declare an emergency, purchase all available doses, and create an allocation plan." Instead, preposterously, the Bush administration has called on healthy people to forgo shots voluntarily, leaving older Americans, clinics, and doctors to fend for themselves."
You're the one who has displayed nothing but opinion based on a promise that 'all will come good' in the future without admitting to the past and present.
So again, when Russia and China decide they are going to have to make a move to align with Europe (and they have done joint military exercises in the last 12 months of which they haven't done in 50 years) then what are you going to be saying?
The only reason why Americans believe they have the right to mouth off about America's power and how they have the right to do what they want to get what they want is because they are yet to be confronted.
To put it simple, your greed and arrogance will come back to bite you because other countries will band together and fight back rather than being left out in the cold to die.
That's why bush is trying to prevent the senate from passing a bill whcih would help the situation in Darfar then is it?
I agree that the US is not the only guilty partner, my country is guilty of doing nothing to help in darfar either but the whole point of the thread is to show the hypocrisy of the US administration.
France is not the topic of the post, france is not going around critisising NK or Iran but illegally detaining, torturing and denying basic human rights to alleged terrorists
more hypocrisy, It ok for you to criticise Iran and NK but as soon as someone criticizes your mates in Saudi, Pakistan and now China it is politically motivated
So what you are saying is china is a lovely nice place to live eh? how about some of chinas crimes against humanity then?
sound familiar? guess what, I'm talking about China but could be saying similar things about the US.
So it's ok to discriminate against women because they have very limited elections? The elections are not to decide who runs the country!
The US was the driving force behing keeping the sanctions in place despite the fact that they clearly were not working. The US was the one who didn't want to continue onto baghbad after driving the iraqi forces out of kuwait.
The US was the one who decided to illegally bomb water treatment plants, hospitals and power stations which are war crimes.
The Iraqi opposition, who had been encouraged to overthrow Hussein, was given no help at all, allowing Hussein to defeat them and stay in power.