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Cheney slams North Korean leader

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posted on May, 30 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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no other country has such extensive links to the saudi dictatorship.


That's because they are in America's sphere of influence. Go take a look at the Sudan. Mostly European powers preventing anyone from acting there, along with China. The French have sold weapons to the Sudan. Why? They have oil interests.

France is hated throughout Africa, almost as bad as we are in the Middle East. The recent flare of violence in the Ivory Coast showed that.


Thats why Crown Prince Abdullah is listed as the worlds fifth worse dictator then?


I actually believe I know the little list you're talking about. It's completely arbitrary and meaningless. Didn't they put China's government in the top five, as well? It's ridiculous, and politically driven more than anything.


They may be holding very limited elections for the first time in 40 years but Women may not vote or run for office.


Um, how does this compare to most nations in the world who have no elections, and persecute their women in the same ways?


Thas rubbish, the saudi dictatorship may be publically saying that but they've barely have control over their armed forces who mainly support terrorist groups such as al queda.


Really?

Highlights the string of terrorist attacks against Saudi Arabia recently:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Saudi forces fight militants who try and attack American consulate:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Your signaling out of Saudi Arabia is completely unjustified.


How about the 1.5 Million iraqi children killed as a direct result of US sanctions on Iraq and the US illegally bombing hospitals, water treatment plants and power stations (which incidentally are war crimes!) in the 1991 Gulf war?


Since when were they "US" sanctions? Last I checked, they were put on by the UN. There wouldn't have been any need for them had America's European allies simply agreed to inavde and finish off Saddam.

And the situation wouldn't have been like that if Saddam simply wasn't greedy. He was hoarding away food and money while his people starved.




posted on May, 30 2005 @ 04:55 PM
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"It's vulgar to believe that they are nothing compared to the likes of Kim Jong 11, if anything, they are far more worse."

right, we have death camps, slave labor, conduct weapons and disease tests on whole families, make our population worship them, force abortions, mass executions, kidnap people and force them to live here, neglect our infrastructure, starve millions, dedicate our economy to military only, not even saudi arabia isnt even as bad as north korea, europe and canada support as many dictatorships as us so are they as bad as north korea too?

you must be brainwashed or crazy if you can compare us to north korea with a straight face.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
]Not true at all. Saudi Arabia, along with other Middle Eastern nations, have made progress over the years and will continue to do so.

The Saudi government is hated by groups like Al Qeada because of their ties with America, and the only official support they've received from them were most likely bribes to keep them off their backs.

Since 9/11, even that's stopped. How many shoot outs with Al Qeada operatives have been reported? I've seen accounts of casualties from the Saudi military.

They aren't an ideal partner, but they aren't as bad as you make them out to be.


Newsflash: Wahhabism remains the exclusive, state religion in the Saudi Kingdom. As we speak, House of Saud quietly redistributes large portions of US oil dollar$ to their Mutawwiin to teach their young impressionable masses "death to us infidels" and the martydom & afterlife rewards that await the dedicated wahhabi. The boat used to attack the Cole & kill 17 of my Navy brothers & sisters was purchased in Saudi Arabia and the attack planned by a scumbag of the United Arab Emirates. Saudi princess Haifa al-Faisal funneled money to Saudi 9/11 hijackers Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi who then slit stewardess's throats before slamming American Airlines Flight 77 & it's innocent passengers into the Pentagon. Almidhar & Alhazmi account for just 2 of the total 15 evil 9/11 hijacking terrorists that were Saudi citizens. The nearly 3000 wailing voices of my fellow countrymen from the grave demanding justice drown out the budget-preserving alibi's of the Saudi apologist - talk about tip-toeing. $100 barrels of oil, pissing a billion off about Mecca? So what, we don't have to desecrate Mecca or go anywhere near it to get the job done. My deceased brothers & sisters deserve to be rightfully avenged from the true perpetrators of 9/11 & Cole. NSA possesses communications intelligence of A.Q. Khan's nuclear smuggling ring selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia. They're not are allies, they just feed us lipservice and apply minimal effort for only the sake of keeping up appearances. For they know that America is willing to put a blindfold on vigilance when it comes to preserving their economy & maintaining their lifestyles.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by arnold_vosloo
How about the 1.5 Million iraqi children killed as a direct result of US sanctions on Iraq and the US illegally bombing hospitals, water treatment plants and power stations (which incidentally are war crimes!) in the 1991 Gulf war?


So where are you getting all this info that 1.5 million kids died from U.S. sanctions on Iraq. And bombing hospitals and all the other plants and power stations that you said were bombed. I just want to know where your getting your info from. Because 1.5million people is alot of people and its actually a pretty obsurd number of deaths.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 06:06 PM
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1.5mil lol this guy on Drugs? everyone blames America for there problems in the world, Its sad people need to start owning up for there mishaps and mistakes in there lifes
America has the Best Healthcare Best Education Best Military/Security Ect. and people love to complain how sad!
I vote someone that complans get shipped over to N.K or some other Rouge State.


[edit on 30-5-2005 by Jamie6661986]



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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Newsflash: Wahhabism remains the exclusive, state religion in the Saudi Kingdom.


Your wording is far too harsh. What's your real point? Wahhabism isn't much different then the rest of Islam on the outside. It's not anymore extreme.


The boat used to attack the Cole & kill 17 of my Navy brothers & sisters was purchased in Saudi Arabia and the attack planned by a scumbag of the United Arab Emirates.


Once again, what's your point? They could have bought it anywhere. I never denied there is strong anti-American/Western sentiment in Saudi Arabia, but that exists all over the Middle East. Al Qeada's original founders were Saudis who went to Afghanistan to fight against the Russians.


Saudi princess Haifa al-Faisal funneled money to Saudi 9/11 hijackers Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi who then slit stewardess's throats before slamming American Airlines Flight 77 & it's innocent passengers into the Pentagon.


I'd like to see some proof of this. The only time I've heard of the Saudi government giving money to Al Qeada was simply to prevent attacks. The Saudi government is probably the most hated by Al Qaeda in the Middle East. They've basically said so themselves. The fact that they let us station troops in their nation for a decade made them the main target.


NSA possesses communications intelligence of A.Q. Khan's nuclear smuggling ring selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia


Have proof?


They're not are allies, they just feed us lipservice and apply minimal effort for only the sake of keeping up appearances. For they know that America is willing to put a blindfold on vigilance when it comes to preserving their economy & maintaining their lifestyles.


Tell me, what does Saudi Arabia get out of screwing America? I highly doubt the men at the top there are big idealists. Why would they bite the hand that feeds them?

Without American support, the Saudi government would most likely have been toppled already. Our weapons and soldiers keep them in power.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

Newsflash: Wahhabism remains the exclusive, state religion in the Saudi Kingdom.



Your wording is far too harsh. What's your real point? Wahhabism isn't much different then the rest of Islam on the outside. It's not anymore extreme.


I Don't Think So, for more than two centuries, Wahhabism has been Saudi Arabia's dominant faith.
The severe simplicity of the Wahhabis has been remarked by travellers in central Arabia. They attack all luxury, loose administration of justice, all laxity against infidels

www.globalsecurity.org...


The boat used to attack the Cole & kill 17 of my Navy brothers & sisters was purchased in Saudi Arabia and the attack planned by a scumbag of the United Arab Emirates.


Once again, what's your point? They could have bought it anywhere. I never denied there is strong anti-American/Western sentiment in Saudi Arabia, but that exists all over the Middle East. Al Qeada's original founders were Saudis who went to Afghanistan to fight against the Russians.

From former CIA Director James Woolsey's Freedom House:

The Wahhabism that the Saudi monarchy enforces, and on which it bases its
legitimacy, is shown in these documents as a fanatically bigoted, xenophobic and sometimes violent ideology. These publications articulate its wrathful dogma, rejecting the coexistence of different religions and explicitly condemning Christians, Jews, all other non-Muslims, as well as non-Wahhabi Muslims. The various Saudi publications gathered for this study state that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping such “infidels” in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations. They instill contempt for America because the United States is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. Some of the publications collected for this study direct Muslims not to take American citizenship as long as the country is ruled by infidels and tells them, while abroad, above all, to work for the creation of an Islamic state. The Saudi textbooks and documents spread throughout American mosques preach a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel.

www.freedomhouse.org...

I'd like to see some proof of this. The only time I've heard of the Saudi government giving money to Al Qeada was simply to prevent attacks. The Saudi government is probably the most hated by Al Qaeda in the Middle East. They've basically said so themselves. The fact that they let us station troops in their nation for a decade made them the main target.


Saudi officials acknowledged yesterday that Princess Haifa al-Faisal, the wife of Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan, gave money to the family of Osama Bassnan, a Saudi citizen, when they were in the United States. One of Bassnan's friends, Omar al-Bayoumi, helped two of the Sept. 11 hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, with introductions to the Muslim community when they arrived in San Diego in 2000. Al-Bayoumi hosted a party and helped Almihdhar and Alhazmi with rent payments.

Bassnan was deported to Saudi Arabia Nov. 17 and his wife was deported to her native Jordan the same day, both on visa violations, officials said.



Fifteen of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, and questions have arisen about whether Saudi government officials or private foundations may have helped fund terrorists and may still be doing so.



The possible link comes just as the United States is trying to line up Saudi Arabia's help for a likely confrontation with Iraq.



The checks were issued from the princess's account at Riggs Bank in Washington. The Saudi Embassy called the president of Riggs Friday night after learning of the FBI investigation from media inquiries.

Bank officials opened the bank so embassy employees could spend the night going through the checks that had been issued from her account. Officials were still going through the records to see if any checks sent to the Bassnan family were endorsed over to Bayoumi. Some of the checks, officials said, were endorsed over to third parties -- perhaps members of the Bassnan family.

A congressional panel investigating the Sept. 11 attacks took note of the payments from the princess while reviewing FBI files, sources said. Panel members were not satisfied the bureau had fully examined the money trail there and asked the bureau for more information.

The bureau and the Justice Department had firmly resisted the committee's request to declassify the information. They now say they cannot comment because it is a matter of continuing investigation.

www.washingtonpost.com...


NSA possesses communications intelligence of A.Q. Khan's nuclear smuggling ring selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia


Have proof?


NSA possesses communications intelligence that proves the A.Q. Khan nuclear smuggling ring in Pakistan was also selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia.


www.onlinejournal.com...


They're not are allies, they just feed us lipservice and apply minimal effort for only the sake of keeping up appearances. For they know that America is willing to put a blindfold on vigilance when it comes to preserving their economy & maintaining their lifestyles.


Tell me, what does Saudi Arabia get out of screwing America? I highly doubt the men at the top there are big idealists. Why would they bite the hand that feeds them?

Without American support, the Saudi government would most likely have been toppled already. Our weapons and soldiers keep them in power.


You can candycoat preferred dictatorships all you want. The House of Saud love our money, not our culture. They're treacherous scumbags who only strike out feebly against small factions that threaten themselves and would topple their anti-democratic regime, all while continuing to fund the Islamic extremist fringe Wahhabists who focus primarily on undermining the west and it's interests.






[edit on 30-5-2005 by Vajrayana]



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 09:13 PM
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The severe simplicity of the Wahhabis has been remarked by travellers in central Arabia. They attack all luxury, loose administration of justice, all laxity against infidels


I've yet to see anything that makes them stand out. Practicing a stricter form of Islam doesn't mean much. It does mean they ban the use of things like suicide bombers, though.


The Wahhabism that the Saudi monarchy enforces, and on which it bases its


What Saudi Arabia has now is a toned down form of Wahhabism. They clearly don't mind cooperating with infidels, as they work with us just fine.


Saudi officials acknowledged yesterday that Princess Haifa al-Faisal, the wife of Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan, gave money to the family of Osama Bassnan, a Saudi citizen, when they were in the United States. One of Bassnan's friends, Omar al-Bayoumi, helped two of the Sept. 11 hijackers, Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, with introductions to the Muslim community when they arrived in San Diego in 2000. Al-Bayoumi hosted a party and helped Almihdhar and Alhazmi with rent payments.


Wow. This just proves to me you're a spin artist. He gave the money to a friend of a friend who helped the hijackers...

That's hardly a smoking gun.


Fifteen of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, and questions have arisen about whether Saudi government officials or private foundations may have helped fund terrorists and may still be doing so.


As I said, Al Qeada was started by Saudis who ran off to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Something as big of 9/11 would have used veterans, and they were most likely to be Saudis. This in no way points to the Saudi government.


NSA possesses communications intelligence that proves the A.Q. Khan nuclear smuggling ring in Pakistan was also selling nuclear components to Saudi Arabia.


Quite the source you've got for this...I was kind of looking for something a little more credible, especially since you're talking about what the NSA knows.


You can candycoat preferred dictatorships all you want. The House of Saud love our money, not our culture. They're treacherous scumbags who only strike out feebly against small factions that threaten themselves and would topple their anti-democratic regime, all while continuing to fund the Islamic extremist fringe Wahhabists who focus primarily on undermining the west and it's interests.


Really? From what I hear, many of those Saudis can't get enough of our lifestyle when they come here. They love their drugs, women and gambling.

Once again, why fund any extremists? What do they actually get out of it?



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 09:20 PM
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Interesting, I don't see you providing zilch to support your whirlwind view. Just another Saudi apologist trying to create diversion from the real funders of this war.


Quite the source you've got for this...I was kind of looking for something a little more credible, especially since you're talking about what the NSA knows.


Quite the source? Just shows your spin. Who is the source of this article?

Wayne Madsen is a Washington, DC-based investigative journalist and nationally-distributed columnist. He served at the National Security Agency during the Reagan administration.

I'll take his word over yours.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by Vajrayana]



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 09:22 PM
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KICK THE CRAP OUT OF HIM CHENEY !!!

Comparing the leaders of the US to Korea is absolutely Ridiculous.

First of all, Lets not even bring up the homeless situation or any other that has no validity at all when it comes to bashing Bush or Cheney. By the way, What are you doing about the homeless situtaion ???

Second, Bush is not killing, starving and slaving his people like Korea. There is no comparison. Pleeeeeeeeease ! Would someone do some True research before they make such stupid, ridiculous claims that they probably couldn't think up for themselves but just go with the flow of the LIBERIAL ONE STANCE, ONE VIEW MEDIA !

I could slam some more but that would be like:

Casting stones before swine !



Now open those books NOT news magazines and discover the Truths !




posted on May, 30 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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For what its worth, I'll make this perfectly clear first- Kim is a monster and what Cheney said is true.
Having said that, Cheney is rattling the Korean leaders cage on purpose.
Diplomacy? LOL...

This will thwart any efforts of nuclear weapons negotiations. Which is exactly what Cheney wants



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

What is with American patriots and their lack of perspective???


Yea, how dare us dumb ignorant Americans not realize that our president is the same as Lil' Kim. I mean, look at how many babies they've killed to control the population, or the number of children who are forced to fight over pieces of rice (given to us by nations like Japan) just to survive...


Yeah, your right there are plenty of dumb ignorant Americans.
Those are the ones that believe that you have to mimic Hitler's every step before you can be considered similar in ideals or you have to kill babies out in the open on an alter as Kim must do before you can be considered evil.


Please, I'm sure Kim isn't starting wars in other countries to close the gap between business and politics either, no he's hurting his people in a much more obvious way, a way that you can easily point your finger at without having to understand in detail. The problem with these ignorant dumb Americans are that they won't do the work to discover the problems within their own country, they are too busy pointing the finger at easy targets offshore.

Bush will let your country men die in a plethra of other ways.
How about lack of Flu shots for one? There's a 50 million flu shot shortage for America thanks to Bush and the flu kills over 40,000 Americans every year but NO, that's probably someone elses fault right? Only Kim Jong Il could have such blatent regard for the lives of his citizens.

Get perspective next time you get milk because you are sounding like a dumb ignorant American.

Yes there are problems overseas but fix your own before you meddle in others. Your sh-t does stink, the rest of the world can smell it.


[edit on 30-5-2005 by TheShroudOfMemphis]



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 09:53 PM
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Wayne Madsen is a Washington, DC-based investigative journalist and nationally-distributed columnist. He served at the National Security Agency during the Reagan administration.


And none of that makes him credible at all. Where exactly are his columsn distributed? Not even the New York Times would except a guy who doesn't list a single source for any of his bold claims.

I did a quick google to find other stories this guy has written, and I found great ones like-

"Exposing Carl Rove"
"Bush's Christian Blood Cult"

He seems to have written about things like election fraud, as well. Actually, it seems every story he's ever written is about how bad Bush and the neocons are.

I don't see him in any respected news sources.


Interesting, I don't see you providing zilch to support your whirlwind view. Just another Saudi apologist trying to create diversion from the real funders of this war.


My view is pretty basis. If you want me to back up something I've said, just ask, and I'll do it.


Those are the ones that believe that you have to mimic Hitler's every step before you can be considered similar in ideals or you have to kill babies out in the open on an alter as Kim must do before you can be considered evil


Similliar in ideals? What does Bush share in common with Hitler? Care go give some real examples?

And you have absolutely no examples of Bush's administration ordering the deaths of small babies. The very best you could come up with is how many Iraqis have died, or something along those lines, yet that would have to ignore the fact that we are still helping the nation of Iraq in the longrun by establishing a free and democratic state.


Please, I'm sure Kim isn't starting wars in other countries to close the gap between business and politics either, no he's hurting his people in a much more obvious way, a way that you can easily point your finger at without having to understand in detail. The problem with these ignorant dumb Americans are that they won't do the work to discover the problems within their own country, they are too busy pointing the finger at easy targets offshore.


Even if Bush had money in mind when he started this war, it doesn't matter. You know why? Because it helps the Iraqi people in the longrun, as well.

You aren't even or wrong just because you do something that you benefit from.


How about lack of Flu shots for one? There's a 50 million flu shot shortage for America thanks to Bush and the flu kills over 40,000 Americans every year but NO, that's probably someone elses fault right? Only Kim Jong Il could have such blatent regard for the lives of his citizens.


How is this actually Bush's fault? I'm sure he called someone up and said I demand you hold back on flu shots for the American people...

And it should not be the government's job to provide flu shots to the people, but the private sector. America is still officially a capitalist nation.


Get perspective next time you get milk because you are sounding like a dumb ignorant American


It's better then being an ignorant socialist liberal who has no understanding of history or the present.


Yes there are problems overseas but fix your own before you meddle in others. Your sh-t does stink, the rest of the world can smell it.


And the rest of the world can do nothing but run its mouth while America does whatever it wants.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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I think the point the "anti-Americans"
are trying to make is that if anybody is going to call out Kim Jong Il, it should NOT be Richard Cheney or anybody in the U.S. government, for that matter. It's like King Fahd or Shah Reza Phalavi, or even Adolf Hitler calling out Kim Jong Il. it should be someone more level-headed, someone not hypocritical, and somebody who actually does give a damn about it's people. Definitely not Cheney, Bush, or anybody in the U.S. government. But someone... someone like me.


For the record, Kim Jong Il sucks and I constantly hope for a change of heart in him. If he thinks America is so bad, he should strive to be the better man than whomever he considers his adversary.

[edit on 30-5-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 11:15 PM
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What you said was exactly what everyone else has been saying. It's just nonsense. There is no comparison to Hitler and Cheney or any member of the American government for that matter.

Most of the Cheney's actions can be justified in a number of ways. The same is not true of Kim.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

Similliar in ideals? What does Bush share in common with Hitler? Care go give some real examples?


Example: www.onlinejournal.com...
American Modified and Accepted Hitlerism: Comparisons and conclusions

"To dismantle the imperialistic theology of good and bad, I identified 10 levels of comparison between the U.S. imperialist system and Hitler’s short-lived empire: 1) Imperialism, 2) militarism, 3) pattern of military occupation, 4) pattern of violence, 5) manifestoes, 6) system of government, 7) structure of political power, 8) romantic nationalism, 9) propaganda and indoctrination, and 10) statements of intent."


And you have absolutely no examples of Bush's administration ordering the deaths of small babies. The very best you could come up with is how many Iraqis have died, or something along those lines, yet that would have to ignore the fact that we are still helping the nation of Iraq in the longrun by establishing a free and democratic state.


Again, i never said Bush killed babies. I said Bush is still responsable for thousands of deaths in other countries and in your own country and the actions he's made will result in thousands more. If you can only accept Bush has a black heart like people such as Kim Jong Il when he does start ordering the killing of babies, then you've allowed him to get to that point by ingnoring what he's doing now in a not so open and public manner. The means of death aren't important, it's why they occured and in the case of Bush, thousands have died needlessly.

It's your opinion that America is helping Iraq in the 'longrun'. That's not factual evidence either. It only stands IF you believe the retoric from the whitehouse as to why your in Iraq thou if you look at the damage in Iraq, the quality of health and the billions of dollers gone missing, there's a LONG road ahead until any form of 'help' comes to the forground. Your opinion is ideological, not factual. In the longrun, Iraq could be ten times the hell hole it is now aswell, there's much more evidence supporting that ideology.




Even if Bush had money in mind when he started this war, it doesn't matter. You know why? Because it helps the Iraqi people in the longrun, as well.

You aren't even or wrong just because you do something that you benefit from.


Again, your ASSUMING this is helping Iraqi's in the longrun, there's no proof of that. The country is on the verge of civil war, it's health is WORSE than under Saddam and thanks to the DU America has dropped on the country, the Cancer rate has risen 10 fold. How is that helping in the longrun??

Yes if you believe what your told then Iraq will be a paradise if America gets its way but there's nothing to back that up other than more empty words.
Here's a headline for you:

Audit: U.S. lost track of $9 billion in Iraq funds
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Nearly $9 billion of money spent on Iraqi reconstruction is unaccounted for because of inefficiencies and bad management, according to a watchdog report published Sunday.
edition.cnn.com...

How is that helping again? That's not even helping Americans who will have to forfit more to fill the funding hole this has left. This is only ONE example of many.



How is this actually Bush's fault? I'm sure he called someone up and said I demand you hold back on flu shots for the American people...

And it should not be the government's job to provide flu shots to the people, but the private sector. America is still officially a capitalist nation.


By your response, your obviously not one to believe the government works for the people and you seem to not understand how the government does business with the drug companies. The easiest response is to quote this paragraph:

"Bush should be doing one thing right now: As Dr. Marcia Angell, author of the book "The Truth About the Drug Companies," urges, "The government should declare an emergency, purchase all available doses, and create an allocation plan." Instead, preposterously, the Bush administration has called on healthy people to forgo shots voluntarily, leaving older Americans, clinics, and doctors to fend for themselves."
www.commondreams.org...

Then go talk to the doctors that are working over-time and the hospitals which are strained because they are also working over-time because there's been no help from the government. Bush tells people not to get sick! Well, what happens if they do??


"Get perspective next time you get milk because you are sounding like a dumb ignorant American"

It's better then being an ignorant socialist liberal who has no understanding of history or the present.


How have i no understanding of history or the present?
You're the one who has displayed nothing but opinion based on a promise that 'all will come good' in the future without admitting to the past and present.




And the rest of the world can do nothing but run its mouth while America does whatever it wants.


So again, when Russia and China decide they are going to have to make a move to align with Europe (and they have done joint military exercises in the last 12 months of which they haven't done in 50 years) then what are you going to be saying?

The only reason why Americans believe they have the right to mouth off about America's power and how they have the right to do what they want to get what they want is because they are yet to be confronted.

If you had perspective and you had logic and you understood future trends and foriegn policy, you would be well aware of the hole your trying to dig yourselves out of.

To put it simple, your greed and arrogance will come back to bite you because other countries will band together and fight back rather than being left out in the cold to die.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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PARIS - President Jacques Chirac moved swiftly forward Monday with a widely expected government shakeup to save face at home as European Union officials worked to control damage after French voters rejected the EU's first constitution, dealing a potentially fatal blow to the charter.




The results of Sunday's referendum were a humiliating blow to Chirac and a disavowal of his government, left reeling by the decisive victory of the constitution's opponents.


sounds like every one ps jumping on the band wagon to fight us big o'l mean Americans.
I can/t believe how jealous you sound. its always hate, America.
from what I've seen anytime some one needs help America if the first one they ask



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 02:47 AM
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I Second that!!!!!! When other country's need Aid they come running to America! and uualy we always help but America now notices how the Country's we help turn there back on us as quick as we help them



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer


That's because they are in America's sphere of influence. Go take a look at the Sudan. Mostly European powers preventing anyone from acting there, along with China. The French have sold weapons to the Sudan. Why? They have oil interests.


That's why bush is trying to prevent the senate from passing a bill whcih would help the situation in Darfar then is it?

I agree that the US is not the only guilty partner, my country is guilty of doing nothing to help in darfar either but the whole point of the thread is to show the hypocrisy of the US administration.


France is hated throughout Africa, almost as bad as we are in the Middle East. The recent flare of violence in the Ivory Coast showed that.


France is not the topic of the post, france is not going around critisising NK or Iran but illegally detaining, torturing and denying basic human rights to alleged terrorists


I actually believe I know the little list you're talking about. It's completely arbitrary and meaningless. Didn't they put China's government in the top five, as well? It's ridiculous, and politically driven more than anything.


more hypocrisy, It ok for you to criticise Iran and NK but as soon as someone criticizes your mates in Saudi, Pakistan and now China it is politically motivated


So what you are saying is china is a lovely nice place to live eh? how about some of chinas crimes against humanity then?

web.amnesty.org...


Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment


sound familiar? guess what, I'm talking about China but could be saying similar things about the US.


Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials.


again could be about the US but it's china!


China continued to use the global “war on terrorism” to justify its crackdown on the Uighur community in Xinjiang.


are we starting to see a pattern here yet?

Lets have a look at what Saudi Arabia is up to then...

web.amnesty.org...


Killings by security forces and armed groups escalated, exacerbating the already dire human rights situation in the country.



Dozens of people, including peaceful critics of the state, were arrested and over two dozen suspected in connection with the “war on terror” were detained following their forcible return by other countries.



Allegations of torture were reported and flogging, which constitutes a cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment and may amount to torture, remained a routine practice.


now onto your other points..


Um, how does this compare to most nations in the world who have no elections, and persecute their women in the same ways?


So it's ok to discriminate against women because they have very limited elections? The elections are not to decide who runs the country!

this is what amnesty have to say about the treatment of women!


women still face extreme forms of discrimination and restriction on their basic human rights." Amnesty International said in its report "Gross human rights abuses against women" released today.

Discrimination against women touches virtually all aspects of their lives including family life, decision making, employment, education and the justice system. It impacts upon and compounds the wide range of human rights violations commonly reported in Saudi Arabia.

Women can not walk alone even in their own neighbourhood without the fear of being stopped, beaten or detained particularly by the religious police as suspected moral offenders.

For instance they are not allowed to go anywhere, or leave the country without a male guardian


suggest you read the full report! www.amnesty.org.uk...


Really?

Highlights the string of terrorist attacks against Saudi Arabia recently:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Saudi forces fight militants who try and attack American consulate:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Your signaling out of Saudi Arabia is completely unjustified.


someone else has already covered this point further down so I wont comment any further but I suggest you do some research into actual situation in saudi arabia.


Since when were they "US" sanctions? Last I checked, they were put on by the UN. There wouldn't have been any need for them had America's European allies simply agreed to inavde and finish off Saddam.

And the situation wouldn't have been like that if Saddam simply wasn't greedy. He was hoarding away food and money while his people starved.


The US was the driving force behing keeping the sanctions in place despite the fact that they clearly were not working. The US was the one who didn't want to continue onto baghbad after driving the iraqi forces out of kuwait.

The US was the one who decided to illegally bomb water treatment plants, hospitals and power stations which are war crimes.

Iraq had the best equiped Hospitals, the best trained doctors in the mid east and one of the best completely FREE healthcare systems in the world before 1991. Since the US destoyed it during the war and continued the daily bombing of Iraq over the next FOURTEEN years they are solely responsible for the death of 1.5 millions Iraqis !

www.mediamonitors.net...


The United States is knowingly violating Article 54 of the Geneva Convention which prohibits any country from undermining "objects indispensable to the survival of (another country's) civilian population," including drinking water installations and supplies.

One document, written soon after the bombing, warned that sanctions would prevent Iraq from importing "water treatment replacement parts and some essential chemicals" leading to "increased incidences, if not epidemics, of disease."

Another document lists the most likely diseases: "diarrheal diseases (particularly children); acute respiratory illnesses (colds and influenza); typhoid; hepatitis A (particularly children); measles, diphtheria, and pertussis (particularly children); meningitis, including meningococcal (particularly children); cholera (possible, but less likely.)"


www.change-links.org...


On August 2nd, 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait, an action that led to the Persian Gulf War, the largest military offensive since World War II. On Jan. 16th, a coalition of countries, led by the United States and England began an assault on Iraq, which killed as many as 150,000 to 200,000 Iraqis. Ten years later, over 1.5 million people have died in Iraq.UNICEF says that 5,000 Iraqi children die every month due to the sanctions and the effects of the depleted uranium weapons used in Iraq.

Immediately after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, 500,000 American soldiers were sent to Saudi Arabia, the stage being set for the Persian Gulf War, which started on Jan. 16th. In the next 42 days, 110,000 aerial sorties dropped 88,000 tons of bombs on Iraq. Over 150,000 Iraqis were killed. The U.S. media was kept from reporting this action. We were told that the air strikes were surgical in nature, hitting only military targets. This was not true. We systematically destroyed Iraq's infrastructure, its water systems, food storage, electrical, sewer and transportation systems were all taken out. There was very little if no resistance from the Iraqi military. This was a slaughter! U.S. General Schwarzkopf says we could have taken Baghdad, but Bush ordered a halt. The Iraqi opposition, who had been encouraged to overthrow Hussein, was given no help at all, allowing Hussein to defeat them and stay in power.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 03:07 PM
link   

"To dismantle the imperialistic theology of good and bad, I identified 10 levels of comparison between the U.S. imperialist system and Hitler’s short-lived empire: 1) Imperialism, 2) militarism, 3) pattern of military occupation, 4) pattern of violence, 5) manifestoes, 6) system of government, 7) structure of political power, 8) romantic nationalism, 9) propaganda and indoctrination, and 10) statements of intent."


1-A bogus claim with nothing backing it up. America isn't making Iraq or Afghanistan colonies. At the same time, Bush has pulled us out of other countries, and reduced American troop strength in other nations, like in South Korea.
2-Simply increasing the military budget some doesn't make him militaristic. He's increased a lot of social programs, as well. How about education? Went up nearly 60% under him. Plus, America was attacked. The spike in military spending was bound to happen no matter who the president was.
3. This is basically a repeat of 1.
4. Once again, a repeat of 1. We were attacked first. Bush is not the aggressor. Even with Iraq, they started the conflict by invading Kuwait. The UN found them in violation of their own sanctions.
5. This is just nonsense.
6. This is a vague and idiotic statement. There is nothing alike about how Bush runs his government. Bush hasn't taken away free speech, and crushed his opposition with violence.
7. I consider this another repeat.
8. Romantic nationalism? Does Bush spout how Americans are a superior people? Has he targed any group and demonized them? The answers are no.
9. Look! Another vague claim they can't back up! What propaganda are they actually refering to? America has a free media that prints whatever the hell they want about Bush.
10. More nonsense. Statements of intent? What does that even mean?


It's your opinion that America is helping Iraq in the 'longrun'. That's not factual evidence either. It only stands IF you believe the retoric from the whitehouse as to why your in Iraq thou if you look at the damage in Iraq, the quality of health and the billions of dollers gone missing, there's a LONG road ahead until any form of 'help' comes to the forground. Your opinion is ideological, not factual. In the longrun, Iraq could be ten times the hell hole it is now aswell, there's much more evidence supporting that ideology.


No, not at all my opinion. Iraqis do now have free speech. A large number of schools have opened up. Women have rights and protection under the law.

The progress is already there.


Again, your ASSUMING this is helping Iraqi's in the longrun, there's no proof of that. The country is on the verge of civil war, it's health is WORSE than under Saddam and thanks to the DU America has dropped on the country, the Cancer rate has risen 10 fold. How is that helping in the longrun??


I've never heard anyone but liberals with no knowledge of how DU weapons work state it causes cancer. The radiation levels given off are harmless.

There is no basis for the claim that the health system has gotten worse under American occupation.

Iraq, apparently, has been on the verge of Civil War for some time now. Yet there have been barely any open clashes between Sunnis and Shiites.


How is that helping again? That's not even helping Americans who will have to forfit more to fill the funding hole this has left. This is only ONE example of many.


Do people like you even realize how much corruption and scandel there was when America was founded? We're rebuilding a nation from the ground up. Things like that happen.

It took America what, a decade or more to adopt a constitution?

The situation in Iraq is looking a lot better then that.


your obviously not one to believe the government works for the people


If you mean I'm not a socialist, then you're right.


"Bush should be doing one thing right now: As Dr. Marcia Angell, author of the book "The Truth About the Drug Companies," urges, "The government should declare an emergency, purchase all available doses, and create an allocation plan." Instead, preposterously, the Bush administration has called on healthy people to forgo shots voluntarily, leaving older Americans, clinics, and doctors to fend for themselves."


Most people I know don't even get a flu shot unless they work around sick people. There is no emergency. I didn't see thousands upon thousands of extra Americans dying in the streets from lack of flu shots.


You're the one who has displayed nothing but opinion based on a promise that 'all will come good' in the future without admitting to the past and present.


You hold Iraq to an impossible standard. It can't be rebuilt over night, and it's not going to go 100% according to plan, and people will have to make large sacrafices.

Find me a nation that transitioned from a dictatorship to democracy without bumps. Go take a look at how bad things went in Germany and Japan when we tried to rebuild them after WW2.

Nothing in Iraq is new. It's all been seen before in the past.

You like to talk about Bush's fear-mongering, but I'd say that's just what people like you do best. Iraq isn't about to crumble because of a few suicide bombers.


So again, when Russia and China decide they are going to have to make a move to align with Europe (and they have done joint military exercises in the last 12 months of which they haven't done in 50 years) then what are you going to be saying?


America has done joint military exercises with Russia. We have exercises with Europe on a constant basis.

It's normal for nations to do these things when they aren't at each others throats.


The only reason why Americans believe they have the right to mouth off about America's power and how they have the right to do what they want to get what they want is because they are yet to be confronted.


Um, yea, that's called reality. There is no one to confront us, so we'll do what anyone would do; which is whatever we want.


To put it simple, your greed and arrogance will come back to bite you because other countries will band together and fight back rather than being left out in the cold to die.


And you believe America will sit back and watch as others catch up?

Groups like the EU are easily countered. America is surrounded by big nations and little nations alike. Most would be absorbed before Europe would threaten us. China would never form an alliance with Russia because they are xenophobic and some of the most arrogant people on the planet. They have no need for the likes of Russia and India.

Russia is never going to be partners with anyone, because they want to be top dog competing with America. They won't be able to control China or Europe. They can't even control their former satellites anymore.


That's why bush is trying to prevent the senate from passing a bill whcih would help the situation in Darfar then is it?


What bill is this? I'm really growing tired of the vague claims.

America has been pushing the UN to call the situation in the Sudan what it is, a genocide. We've been the ones pushing for sanctions and actions while the EU and China won't allow it.


I agree that the US is not the only guilty partner, my country is guilty of doing nothing to help in darfar either but the whole point of the thread is to show the hypocrisy of the US administration.


Every threat around here seems to be about solely the hypocracy of the US administration. Why isn't anyone complaining about Chirac?


France is not the topic of the post, france is not going around critisising NK or Iran but illegally detaining, torturing and denying basic human rights to alleged terrorists


No, France is just going around secretly supporting genocide.

People should stand up to North Korea and Iran, or else things with those nations will never change, only get worse.


more hypocrisy, It ok for you to criticise Iran and NK but as soon as someone criticizes your mates in Saudi, Pakistan and now China it is politically motivated


America is hardly best pals with China. It's just unrealistic to compare these nations to the likes of North Korea.


So what you are saying is china is a lovely nice place to live eh? how about some of chinas crimes against humanity then?


And people say conservatives view things in just black and white...

Things in China aren't as bad as they are in North Korea, and even more importantly, things are CHANGING. In North Korea, they just get worse.


sound familiar? guess what, I'm talking about China but could be saying similar things about the US.


There are a few hundred people being held in Cuba. They are only at risk of behavior like seeing women in skimpy clothing, or perhaps having an Israeli flag draped over them.

You want to compare these things to what happens in North Korea? That's just insanity.


So it's ok to discriminate against women because they have very limited elections? The elections are not to decide who runs the country!


No, not yet. They will be eventually. That's the thing. With nations like Saudi Arabia, they can be forced to change slolwy over time. The same can't be done with North Korea. Even still, NONE OF THIS COMPARES TO THE CRIMES IN NORTH KOREA.


The US was the driving force behing keeping the sanctions in place despite the fact that they clearly were not working. The US was the one who didn't want to continue onto baghbad after driving the iraqi forces out of kuwait.


The sanctions weren't working? That's basically admitting Saddam had illegal weapons, which just justified Bush's invasion.

And no, it was not America who wanted to stop. Our great allies in Europe, and the Arabs all refused to go further.

And the sanctions were kept on by the UN. They were supported by the British just as much as by us. The nations that were for lifting it, like France, Germany and China, were all getting oil and bribes from Saddam.

The only reason the sanctions didn't work is because of those nations. It was not America's doing.


The US was the one who decided to illegally bomb water treatment plants, hospitals and power stations which are war crimes.


I've never heard of any instance where hospitals were bombed. Power plants aren't necessary for people to survive, sorry.

All of the things you keep naming were being used by the military of Iraq. They started the war. The Geneva Convention was never meant to be used as strictly as you liberals do today. The men who made it bombed the hell out of Germany and Japan. The infastructure of a nation has to be destroyed to defeat them in a war.


The Iraqi opposition, who had been encouraged to overthrow Hussein, was given no help at all, allowing Hussein to defeat them and stay in power.


This isn't true. Our fighters protected the Kurds for years. We kept Iraqi forces from acting against them.



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