Is satan real?

Originally posted by Croat56
The greatest thing the devil ever did was convince ppl he didnt exhist.

lol ,true !

Originally posted by humbled_one
Saint4God, I don't know why so many like you that think that "their" belief is the "only" correct way of thinking always want to suggest (with hostility it usually seems) that you have all the answers and everyone else is wrong ('

') .

If "people like me" think their own belief is the only correct way of thinking then they're obviously not people like me. I know that my way of thinking was wrong, which is why I needed to get on board with His way of thinking. I'm still working on it, trust me. Apologies for any hostility, that certainly was not the intent. I do not have all the answers. I'm here to point to the One who does. Ask Him.

Originally posted by humbled_one
First off I never said an eternity without God is not as painful as any other type of eternity. I actually expirenced what i believe to be an almost total seperation from God because of some things I did and it literally drove me insane for about a week. It was the most horrible feeling I have ever felt and part of it never left me, i will never forget it, i live in a repentent state every day all day long and it happened about a year ago. i do not know if i can be forgiven for the way i sort of "turned my back on God".

And the answer is....you absolutely can! Besides John 3:16, there's...

Ephesians 1:7, "In Him (Christ) we have redemption (that is, God has purchased us) through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace."

1 Peter 1:18-19 also makes this point: "You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold . . . but with the precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."

God's grace means being given more than we could ever deserve. God doesn't hold grudges like people do. He's above that.

Originally posted by humbled_one
i did not mean to, but it happened because of my stupid ego, hyper sex drive and wanting to make money, etc. I should have known better and wheater it was Satan or unclean/evil spirits or whatever, something got a hold of me and i was blind to it.
Second, i don't think you understood what i meant by the "roman church", please look up history on the church and how they put the New Testament together and how it is said they have possibly added things and taken away things, like

Like what?

Originally posted by humbled_one
Third, how you mention Matthew 25:41, the correct word is not "eternal" it's "age-during". Go to biblegateway.com and look up the verse under the "Youngs" version of the Bible which is supposed to be one of the closet versions to what the bible actually says in it's original words that were not changed/manipulated, etc. What does "age-during" mean? I don't know for sure but a lot of people feel it may be for a certain amount of time as punishment to learn and not for all eternity. This is one of the reasons I brought up the people who have expirenced near death and what they say, afterall they have been closer to it then either you or myself, right?

The New International Version has been translated by a group of over 200+ scholars from original Hebrew and Greek texts. I've talked to people who can read original text and it seems to be a close fit. Who translated the "Youngs" version, and what about all the other mentions of the word "eternal" and variations thereof? Also, why are NDE's more valid than my, HIFIGUY's, and others interactions with God, Satan, etc.? I was agnostic when I bumped into Satan, so please no assumptions that it was pre-programmed training or some such nonsense. He made it abundantly clear who he was and what he wanted.

Originally posted by humbled_one
As far as you meeting "Satan" or HIFIGUY meeting Satan, I never said neither of you did not meet him, what I said was how do you "know" for sure. How do you know it was not an unclean spirit using your belief in Satan to trick you? I am also not saying Satan does not exist. But it seems there are all types of negative/evil entites out there both walking around as men and out there in the spirit world. It sort of when people say "God himself spoke to me, and I KNOW it was God", yet according to the Bible God did not even speak to Mary himself about her being about to give birth to his son, God sent an angel instead. My point is Satan or evil or negative entites, etc. are numerous out there, yet so many people want to always say that it is simply one entity doing evil things and that it's name is Satan.
Unclean spirits are mentioned in different areas of the bible and by Jesus himself. When he cast out the unclean spirits and/or demons from the man and they fled into the swine/pigs they said that their name was "Legion" not Satan, for they were many.

Funny thing is when you call on Satan, you get Him, not a proxy. Ask for a proxy, and you get a proxy. I do not know why this is, I can only say that it is. Perhaps a candid Satanist is better equipt to explain. The one I knew is no longer in my area for me to ask. It's very limiting to say Satan can't show up or hasn't the time. He's got the time if you have a sweet enough offer. This is where the danger is.

Originally posted by humbled_one
SaintforGod , neither you or I have "all" the answers, only God does...

Totally agree, but I think it's important to discuss and glad you're here to check these things out. I can only speak about what I know. If there's discussion on an unknown topic, I keep my ears open and my mouth shut.

Also, I've not talked to HIFIGUY a lot about Satan other than to say He exists and my dealings with him. Interesting thing is how many matches his story has to mine in ways I never mentioned to him. This to me is validation. When stuff happens that I cannot compare, I shrug and say, "I don't know."

[edit on 7-6-2005 by saint4God]

Saint4God,
I am not saying either of you did not run into something evil, but how do you know it was "the" satan? Just because something evil appears to you and says they are "satan" does not make it so. I am also not saying that you did not run into satan, but how can you know for sure what you ran into. I to have run into more then a few evil enties but none said they were satan...
I see the quotes about forgiveness that you put up and i have read them also. No where does it say though that God will forgive all sins over and over. If you go by your quotes, what it says to me is that if you admit you are a sinner and then ask for the forgiveness through Christ's blood then you are forgiven. However, no where does it say then that after that, you can just keep knowing sinning and just keep being forgiven because afterwards you just keep asking to be forgiven. People live like this everyday. They sin the same sin over and over and then just say they are sorry afterward each time and say to themselves God will forgive me so it is alright. Where does it say you can do that? If someone was really sorry for doing something to someone else and said they were sorry to that person but then kept doing it over and over, then are they really sorry?
I suppose one could say that the person that is sinning is weak and really wants to be forgiven but it also says in Bible that we are not tempted to more then we can handle (not exact quote but that is what it basically says). So then one might have to say is the person really just weak and can't help himself or does he love sinning more then God?
Also what of "Apostates" to Christ who then change their mind and say they now want to come back to Christ? A lot of people make what Hebrews says on this like it is a sin that can not be forgiven (but i am not so sure on their interpetation of Hebrews so i don't know if i agree with it). Jesus on the sermon of the mount says let your yes be yes and your no be no and do not swear oath's so that you are not "condemned". So does that mean if you do and do not follow through that you can not be forgiven? Also what about waht Jesus says about those who lead others astray or those whom sin comes through so that others sin?
I really hope not as I have done these things and more (never hurt anyone though and never did anything illegal) and yet i should have know better. i somehow became someone that i never would have thought i'd become, i literally became blinded in my sin until it all came to a head and i woke up.
I pray everyday that God will forgive me. I really want to believe God will forgive me, but it's hard because i can not forgive myself...i was not ignorant, i was someone that knew better, but then my mind started changing because of my sin and somehow i thought it was all alright...now i have nothing but regret on how i lived my life. i am not living that way now but i just feel i turned my back on God and i can't forgive myself for it...

Originally posted by smadewell
So, in answer to the question.... Yes, Satan is real; howbeit, a REAL part of the human psyche. In short, Satan is that little voice in your head that accuses you day and night. Satan is that little voice in your head that tells you how worthless you are. Satan is your internal Critical Parent Ego-State, if you will. ...(portion clipped for later comment) ... if you continue to allow your "Id" to govern your life.

Psychology considers only an earthly human. It excludes both positive and negative spiritual influences. Had the apostles talked to a modern psychologist after Jesus returned and visited them, they would have been told they were suffering from delusions. Then they would then be given medication/therapy until they believed they suffered from delusions.

But, if you remove the personification of Satan, you still do not have it defined properly. It is not simply internal influences but also external influences. In its essence it is any influence which tempts you to do something which is not God's will. If it was simply a matter of overcoming self-preservation, the first sin would not have been a sin.

This is why the Apostle Paul writes that YOUR heart will accuse or excuse you come Judgement Day. You needn't worry about G_d judging and condemning you.... You'll do that yourself ...

This is about love. (see Luke 7:47 and surrounding story)





[edit on 7-6-2005 by Raphael_UO]

I pray everyday that God will forgive me. I really want to believe God will forgive me, but it's hard because i can not forgive myself...i was not ignorant, i was someone that knew better, but then my mind started changing because of my sin and somehow i thought it was all alright...now i have nothing but regret on how i lived my life. i am not living that way now but i just feel i turned my back on God and i can't forgive myself for it...


If You have already ask you Lord to forgive you,,, It has already happen..

Its not that you can't forgive yourself, It is Satan thats keeping you from forgiving yourself..

He want you to not forgive yourself, That way he can keep tearing you down till you will just say the heck with it, I'm no good and I'll always Sin and I'll never be able to get close to the lord again, Then Satan has you, He has tore you down from inside and now you are his....

You have to belive the word of God, He has never lied and he never will !!!!

You have to learn to forgive yourself or the Lord will not be able to because he will not over run Your will, and as long as you convict your self, You are telling God that you know better than him that you will always be a Sinner and you telling him not to bother you anymore because you know best..

You have told God that you will judge yourself and you will not let him do what he has promas you, that he would always Forgive you as long as you ask him and when you ask him, at that point he will forget all about you sin.

Once forgiven, your files are gone and he never remembers the past sins again, but he will pick up on new ones, thats why we need always to ask for giveness, and he will forget again what we have done..

He promises that to you always...............

[edit on 02/20/2005 by jfdarby]

Originally posted by humbled_one
Saint4God,
I am not saying either of you did not run into something evil, but how do you know it was "the" satan? Just because something evil appears to you and says they are "satan" does not make it so. I am also not saying that you did not run into satan, but how can you know for sure what you ran into. I to have run into more then a few evil enties but none said they were satan...

...then to that I'd say none of them were. If you want Satan to show up and announce in a way that would be to his benefit, he will. I've ran into what I considered evil buggars that were clearly not Satan as well. Why do you think I'm so quick to judge? After all, I hang around "the skeptic's" website, because I am one. Imagine if you will about to be hit by an 18-wheeler Mac Truck. How do you know it's an 18-wheeler Mac Truck? Same question, same situation, except with Satan you get more than just sight and sound as sensory perception.

That experience shook me so badly, it silenced me from it for over a decade. I see now that even after becoming a Christian, he still had one up on me for encouraging me to keep quiet about it.

Originally posted by humbled_one
I see the quotes about forgiveness that you put up and i have read them also. No where does it say though that God will forgive all sins over and over. If you go by your quotes, what it says to me is that if you admit you are a sinner and then ask for the forgiveness through Christ's blood then you are forgiven. However, no where does it say then that after that, you can just keep knowing sinning and just keep being forgiven because afterwards you just keep asking to be forgiven. People live like this everyday. They sin the same sin over and over and then just say they are sorry afterward each time and say to themselves God will forgive me so it is alright. Where does it say you can do that? If someone was really sorry for doing something to someone else and said they were sorry to that person but then kept doing it over and over, then are they really sorry? I suppose one could say that the person that is sinning is weak and really wants to be forgiven but it also says in Bible that we are not tempted to more then we can handle (not exact quote but that is what it basically says). So then one might have to say is the person really just weak and can't help himself or does he love sinning more then God?
Also what of "Apostates" to Christ who then change their mind and say they now want to come back to Christ? A lot of people make what Hebrews says on this like it is a sin that can not be forgiven (but i am not so sure on their interpetation of Hebrews so i don't know if i agree with it). Jesus on the sermon of the mount says let your yes be yes and your no be no and do not swear oath's so that you are not "condemned". So does that mean if you do and do not follow through that you can not be forgiven? Also what about waht Jesus says about those who lead others astray or those whom sin comes through so that others sin?

This is a perfectly valid concern and some "Christians" (the ones who call themselves but are not) believe they can practice "Repent and go out to sin again", but Christians know or should know that Jesus said to the woman about to be stoned, "Go and sin no more". We gotta make the change, the commitment or else it's useless lip-service. Yeah, we'll continue to sin, but hopefully we'll be able to recognize it before it happens and change. This is a relationship process to work with God. None of us are going to 'earn' heaven, we get there because we know how to say we're sorry and make a change to do what it right. It is only then that God graciously allows us into His presence. Nobody can score enough 'brownie points' no matter how many good deeds they do. All we have to do is focus on the here and now, talk to Him, read the Word, and make the decision that benefits Him and other people.

Originally posted by humbled_one
I really hope not as I have done these things and more (never hurt anyone though and never did anything illegal) and yet i should have know better. i somehow became someone that i never would have thought i'd become, i literally became blinded in my sin until it all came to a head and i woke up.
I pray everyday that God will forgive me. I really want to believe God will forgive me, but it's hard because i can not forgive myself...i was not ignorant, i was someone that knew better, but then my mind started changing because of my sin and somehow i thought it was all alright...now i have nothing but regret on how i lived my life. i am not living that way now but i just feel i turned my back on God and i can't forgive myself for it...

If you've accepted God and Jesus as the son, then he died for all your sins whether past, present or future. That does not give us the right to turn around and slap God by intentionally sinning. If we truly love Him, we would not seek to hurt Him, rather rejoice in this gift He has given without worry or regret for our transgressions. If God can forgive you, why cannot you forgive you? I'd be interested in hearing more on specifics if you'd like to U2U me. I'd be more than willing to recount my own sins if it would help you relate. Perhaps then we can explore why what you've felt you've done is 'unforgiveable'. I can only think of one that is and that's suicide, but that's a discussion for another thread...and yes, I had planned it some years ago.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.


[edit on 8-6-2005 by saint4God]

SAINT4GOD and JFDARBY, i know both your hearts are in the right places, but some of the things you are saying i just can not find where it actually says it in the Bible. I'd like to think the way both of you do and i did at one point, but then i actually started reading the Bible and i do not see where it says a lot of the things that both of you are saying about forgiveness? I'd like to think the way you both do, but???
JFDARBY in one post you say that if someone can not forgive themselves then they are saying that they know better then God to judge themselves. Yet, in another post you quote Paul as saying that at judgement are own hearts will judge ourselves, is this not a contradiction to what you are saying in the two posts?
SAINT4GOD, i think it is horrible to say that a suicide can not be forgiven. I am not saying it can or can not as i don't see anywhere in the Bible that actually says this. It does say though that we should not judge others though.
I would like to be forgiven, but again i have not been able to forgive myself and i read a lot of things that seem to condemn in the Bible. If i was "ignorant" of sinning and what the Bible says, then i could grasp my being forgiven, but i knew deeply what the Bible says since i was about 19. Still i continued to be a sinner, then try to not sin, then a sinner and back and forth until finally i became blind to my sin, somehow convinved myself that i was not sinning and it all came to a head when i was 36 and was shown on national Tv on a major (huge) network telling people that the way i lived was not a sin and the show made it look like it was all cool and there is nothing wrong with living that way. It was a documentry that i put together for the network and they still show ever few weeks and it's be showing for about a year now.
I have no idea how many viewers may have been lead astray by me and that documentary. Shortly after it aired i felt spiritually bankrupt and realised that the way of life i promoted was "sin". i then went through the worst depression of my life and started praying for forgiveness and for God to somehow use me as an instrument to maybe change some of what i did somehow. Well, a series of things happened which i do feel was out of the ordinary or "miracles" happened then to me which would have really changed my life and probably would have made me a public witness to God's helping those who pray, but somehow i then even turned my back on it all through doubt and fear, etc. I could not see the big picture as my heart was not sincere in what i was asking and i was made blind to what was actually going on. Blind because i was not sincere. It then all came to pass out of grasp (the "miracle") and my life became even harder and i became even more depressed when i realised what a fool i was (hence my name here as "humbled one)...
I only pray now that my heart is more sincere (i really think it is) and that i can be forgiven...
I would say what the documentary is , but i don't know if it would influnce people to live that way or if it would not influnce them to live that way by what i say here and how it really will spiritually bankrupt you, what do you think? It is being aired again soon...

I thought this thread was dead, and it appears to be picking up steam.

6 months ago, if you read some of my posts, you will see me denying Satan at all. For in my eye, God had no master plan for creating evil.

I did not have a Near Death Experience to see Satan. Once in a dream, the other in the evening while I was typing much like I am now.

I am not delusional, but if one sees Satan, they surely will think they are.

Want my description? Large. Like a good half time larger then a normal man. A large black Robe, and crouched. It was across the street on top of a building one street width away. When I looked at the hood, it had a large, like a huge large white face. two or three times the size of a mans. Looked more like a Jason Hockey Mask. I looked, scared, and no sure what to think. I thought I was losing my damm marbles. It was moving, and it had its arm point forward, and I asked for it to please no be real. And as I was looking at it, it dissolved, like into crumbly black material, then vanished.
I really dont think telling my friends and family about it is going to help me, but I can assure you it has gotten my attention.

So do you think I was scared a bit crapless? Hell Yeah! I thought I had done something wrong that warranted Satan or some other coming hear early to collect on me. I was really not understanding!

Then in my dream. A single night of terror, and waking up. Fear. Fear of Pain. Just shear fear. Of what I dont know. Then I looked to the ceiling, and I could see what looked like a dark image looming overhead.Then I used my little Silver bullet of accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. Satan Gone, and I have had no reoccuring anything. Vanished right away, and the disposition changed instantly. Which leads me to wonder about Satan or Christs ability to enter a mans being. There is no question about the precense of evil.
Its like a bad everything. Cant feel good, cant think good.

Im a guy who dots the i's and crosses the t's. Im a logical man with a mere recent birth into God and faith that has fueled itself with the help of other others as welll as Saint4God, thanks for the Bible by they way. Helps allot.

My path with God and my direction is not always clear, and you can be assured that whatever the master plan, the negative energy of the world, both thought, words, intent, and implementation, is going to get stopped dead in its tracks. Its going to be do good, feel good, be good. How I dont know. Im not God, but Im sure hes at work.
Thats where my faith is leading me. Satan was making a last call on me as he knew I was seeing the will of God come through that said we shouldnt be feeling pain, or misery, or injustice. Is it possible to get only positve thought in the world thats non oppressive and non injurious?

Satan has no power if he has no followers. I cant think of a reason one would want to walk in the dark when one can walk in the light.

Im believing even Satan can be forgiven. He just has to change his evil ways.....

Peace

[edit on 9-6-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by humbled_one
SAINT4GOD and JFDARBY, i know both your hearts are in the right places, but some of the things you are saying i just can not find where it actually says it in the Bible. I'd like to think the way both of you do and i did at one point, but then i actually started reading the Bible and i do not see where it says a lot of the things that both of you are saying about forgiveness? I'd like to think the way you both do, but???

I dont' understand, these aren't in your Bible?

And the answer is....you absolutely can! Besides John 3:16, there's...

Ephesians 1:7, "In Him (Christ) we have redemption (that is, God has purchased us) through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace."

1 Peter 1:18-19 also makes this point: "You were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold . . . but with the precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."

or was it something else? Help me out, and I'll do everything I can to help you out.

Originally posted by humbled_one
SAINT4GOD, i think it is horrible to say that a suicide can not be forgiven. I am not saying it can or can not as i don't see anywhere in the Bible that actually says this.

Exodus 20:13. How can you say you're sorry for killing yourself when you're dead? I may be wrong. I really hope or wish I was wrong, but given these words, how can I believe differently?

Originally posted by humbled_one
It does say though that we should not judge others though.

Did I do this? If you truly care as a brother/sister, then please let me know what I've done wrong so I can fix it.

I've come to one of two conclusions, not saying I'm right. You've accepted Christ but don't know or feel the full impact of total forgiveness or you have not accepted Christ and need to in order to get that full impact of total forgiveness. I cannot say which it is, but I think it's the first. If that's so, talk to God about it, he'll get you the answer you need. If not directly than indirectly. It could be through one of us, I don't know. Prayers with you humbled_one, I hope you get the answer soon.

HIFIGUY, I cannot tell you how on-target you are. It's phenomenal really, how you went through a lot of the same feelings, approaches and conclusions I had. The only difference was physical appearance of the guy and what he said to me. Thank you very much for sharing this. Again, it's a validation of my own experience (more proof).

Pray, train, study,
God bless.


[edit on 9-6-2005 by saint4God]

So, the psychoanalytic, psycosexual, model is Hebrew theology? Not that I'm particularly surprised, but I've never heard anyone suggest that before.

My personal opinion: Satan was a character created as a scare tactic used for social control purposes in Old Testament times. Much like human nature was characterized as "sin", the Satan character allowed the Church (and God) to be the great equalizer, the savior from this "evil force", which in fact was simply people's inherent wants and desires. The concept of some fallen angel in a red suit with a tail trying to tempt human beings is absolutely laughable. But because it plays to the human ego, that there are forces out there hellbent (no pun intended) on destroying/tempting man, it worked for so many hook, line and sinker.

Of course, the only way to fight this demonic force is... (drumroll please) to go to Church to beg forgiveness of your sins. And of course to tithe 10% of your money. Best not be forgetting that part. When in doubt, always follow the money.

Want to really get a fundamentalist riled up? Ask him or her why there aren't any dinosaurs in the Bible. Seeing the person squirm for an answer is usually high comedy. Maybe they can blame Satan for somehow causing that oversight.

Originally posted by Tampa Lou
My personal opinion: The concept of some fallen angel in a red suit with a tail trying to tempt human beings is absolutely laughable.

Of course, the only way to fight this demonic force is... (drumroll please) to go to Church to beg forgiveness of your sins. And of course to tithe 10% of your money. Best not be forgetting that part. When in doubt, always follow the money.

Want to really get a fundamentalist riled up? Ask him or her why there aren't any dinosaurs in the Bible.

The cartoon concept you describe satan as, is not correct. You do have the temptation part right though. People can be tempted by the world, the flesh and satan.

The only way to overcome satan is by accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. It is then that a person can say no to sin. God doesn't need our money, He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. The reason why you would give money is to reach others with the saving knowledge of Christ and to minister to those already saved. You also learn to help by giving and to learn what is really important and you learn what things you can live without. By giving you are puuting God first in the area of your finances.

Dinosaurs are in the Bible. In the book of Job and Genesis. So there is no problem there, I didn't squirm in my chair or even break a sweat on that one.