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GOP Civil War: Old-school Republicans vs. Movement Republicans

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posted on May, 25 2005 @ 02:35 PM
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There's a civil war brewing in the ranks of the GOP. It has been brewing for quite some time, but the cracks are starting to show now. You basically have two groups: Old-school, Paleo-Conservatives & moderates and you have the movement Republicans (religious fundamentalists) & Neo Cons. The latter banked on the fact that Bush would cater to their every ludicrous whim after he was reSelected.

Something strange is happening, though. The Old-schoolers have put their ears on and are exercising their God-given common sense. They've heard the public and its disdain for so many of the assinine policies being pushed by Bush and his extremist faction. They're finally, publicly breaking ranks with the corrupt GOP leadership and putting the good of the nation before party loyalties. What a slap in the face to the ethically challenged Tom DeLay and political opportunist and presidential wanna-be Bill Frist.

Bush, Frist and DeLay have seriously and disasterously overreached on a number of issues. It's been one thing after the next. Iraq, the Terri Shiavo case, the "nuclear option" (filibuster fight), the Bolton affair, social security, the stem-cell debate. Only a vengeful, ruthless fringe group in this country actually supports this ongoing madness the president is promoting.

It's time for all old-school Republicans to make their voices of reason heard! It's also time to make it clear to those fanatic pseudo-Republicans that the United States will not tolerate being ruled by a Taliban-like fundamentalist government! They want it their way or the highway. Even God Himself gave each of us freewill! They are nothing but wolves in sheep's clothing - forever tarnishing the Grand Ol' Party.

Here's an excellent article on this:



Exploit the Rift
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Wednesday 25 May 2005

Members of the Republican Party's political action corps pride themselves on discipline and adherence to the line. Most of the time they are very good at this, which explains to a degree their ascendancy of late. All of a sudden, however, that discipline has started to crack, and the outlines of a full-fledged civil war within the ranks of the GOP are beginning to become manifestly clear.

The public rift started several weeks ago, when Majority leaders Frist and DeLay dragged the rest of the party along on the demented sleigh-ride that was the Schiavo affair. Messrs. Frist and DeLay assumed, wrongly, that the American people would happily accept the idea that Congressmen should serve as mother, father, husband, wife, doctor and priest on matters of life and death as they pertain to medical decisions. When some 80% of the public rejected this concept out of hand, according to every poll, the cracks began to publicly appear.

This actually started as a private rift back in November. The 'movement conservatives' - read: fundamentalist evangelical activist Christian base of the GOP - believed they were the ones who single-handedly delivered electoral victory to Bush in the last election, and were set upon being paid back for their efforts. This expected payback amounted to the assumption that the GOP majority in Congress would take up all the issues dear to the movement conservative heart.

The problem arose when a good number of the old-school conservatives within the GOP decided they didn't really want the fundamentalists driving the bus. These old-school conservatives were likewise developing a significant disgust for the so-called leadership of the neo-conservatives in the White House and Pentagon, who had led the party into the bottomless blood-well of Iraq.
www.truthout.org...




posted on May, 25 2005 @ 04:14 PM
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I have noticed that too ECK but as usual anything coming from our political leaders has to be taken with skepticism.

After all is their political careers in the line, and the possibility of losing votes.

Now when it comes to Frist I can't way to see him running for the presidential candidacy.

He is truly the perfect "God send" if you know what I mean.

I am going to enjoy that one very much.

I kind of like when they are stepping on each other toes.



[edit on 25-5-2005 by marg6043]



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 05:23 PM
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"God Send" is right! President Scary.. I mean, president Frist...............


That guy doesn't have a chance; unless Diebold's employed universally.

I can't help but notice the tremendous lack of interest in this thread.
There are a lot of pseudo-Republicans around here who are clueless on this issue. Therefore, they will ignore it. There's no defending their positions. It would be nice for a change, if a few of them would actually step up and have an honest discussion about this - minus the venom.

The Republican party is basically fighting for its soul. That's why I havn't bailed on the GOP.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 05:30 PM
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Hey I did a thread on the view lack of interest by Americans when it comes to fillibusters wars, the polls shows that people don't care.

Nobody posted ECK I guess Americans are just to brain washed to notice that indeed is a fight going on in our government.

Or perhaps people is just tired of politics.



posted on May, 25 2005 @ 05:36 PM
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The people I'm talking about - who avoid this - are the party faithful (or "useful idiots," as the elitists say). Those who swallow the party line, hook, line and sinker; without ever questioning, at any length, what exactly it is they are supporting. They see someone who looks right to them and blindly follow. They hail from all parties, believe it; but these folks are the followers of the poisonous Neo Cons and fundamentalists. Neo Cons and fundamentalists have thoroughly corrupted the Republican party.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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In about 8 million years, I never imagined that Trent Lott would be on our side, but he was working beind the scenes to preserve the fillibuster option and sabotage Bill Frist.

Anyone see Old Man Dobson, from Focus On the Family, ripping on McCain and Trent Lott? I hope this is a good sign of a moderate. old school revolt within the Republican party. I mean, I can have a spirited debate with a traditional conservative, because they're at least pragmatic.

It's the rapture folks, who wake up every morning to a Come to Jesus Meeting, and actually believe that the rest of us will be Left Behind - these are the guys that scare me. How does one think long term national planning, when they believe Jesus is coming back to spirit everyone away.

Any day now.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 06:29 PM
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Very good point brimstone, I am amazed how people in theirs believe stop taking care of matters that are important to us as a whole nation.

I will take the waking up to Jesus coming to a lack of respect to the fellow human beings that have to keep on living in our world and face the realities of Jesus not making it back for another one thousand years.

I always feel that we have to take care of now and prepared for what will come next.

I also think that I will be one of the left behind to clean up and fix the mess of the ones that live in "Rapture" every day of their life without thinking of the consequences they can become a burden and a danger to our nation


It Jesus is coming for them. I hope he does it soon, so we can keep on living our rapture less lives and tried to put the nation back in shape.



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
How does one think long term national planning, when they believe Jesus is coming back to spirit everyone away.


Those who know their scriptures know that Jesus commanded the faithful to keep working and to keep going until that day comes. He also pointed out that not even He knows the hour and the day. That is most interesting to me.

Dobson...
Don't even get me started!



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 10:30 PM
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Much will depend on who the Republicans choose for the 2008 race at this stage it looks like the Republican party has sold its soul to a bunch of regliouse nuts. Unless the Republicans can claim there party back they risk losing votes to the Libertarians and handing the election to the Dems on a platter.

The millon dollar question is who can take the Republican party back?
Is it possible that the Republican party is dyeing? Its seems unlikely but we could see the end of the two party system in America if a group of Republicans form a break away party.

The other possablity is that for the first time we are seeing the Republican party for what it is there is no doubt Reagan was a great prez but was he a Republican ?

I will watch with the next few years with great interest to see what emerges from the American right.



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 09:00 AM
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Now for the balance...

The Republican party is doing just fine. Well, if you compare them to the Democrats. We do have some whackos, that we have got to take care of, like John McCain and several others. Look for the RNC, under pressure from contributers like me, to support competition against the "finger in the wind" moderates.

The Democrats only wish they had Republican troubles. That would mean that they were winning elections, which they are clearly not.

The only problem Republicans are having is that they have power and are scared to use it.

I do agree Bill Frist, and his lack of leadership, will have a hard time getting the Republican nomination. But that leaves the door open for Newt Gingrich or someone like Tom Tancredo or George Allen. Don't be surprised if good ole Dick Cheney decides to run!

[edit on 29-5-2005 by Carseller4]



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 03:45 PM
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Great questions, xpert. No pun intended.



Originally posted by xpert11
Much will depend on who the Republicans choose for the 2008 race at this stage it looks like the Republican party has sold its soul to a bunch of regliouse nuts.


I disagree with your first idea. Of course, I believe the whole voting system is rigged. (Which is another conversation.) I don't think it matters a whole lot who is chosen. Thankfully, and hopefully, Frist has shot himself in both feet and won't be credible.
Who else, who knows.

On your second point, I wholeheartedly agree. They've also entered into a devil's bargain allowing the Neo Cons to run foreign policy. Our nation is peril because of it.


Unless the Republicans can claim there party back they risk losing votes to the Libertarians and handing the election to the Dems on a platter.


At this point I'm all for populism. I voted for as many Libertarians in 2004 election as I could. It was a pleasure, at that point, to deprive the GOP of as many votes as I could for their bad behavior. That is, if my votes even counted.



The millon dollar question is who can take the Republican party back?
Is it possible that the Republican party is dyeing?


I tell ya this. In the '96 South Carolina presidential primaries, I proudly cast my vote for ex-Reagan foot soldier, Patrick J. Buchanan. He was tha man! He still is tha man (most of the time, anyway). He was better than yes-man Dole (who had the lock) and far better than political whore Clinton.
Reagan's GOP ain't dead. It's in men like Buchanan. And in those of us willing to speak out.


Reagan was a great prez but was he a Republican ?


Some people don't know this; but, Reagan began his political life as a liberal Democrat. He was a big FDR guy, as most were.


I will watch with the next few years with great interest to see what emerges from the American right.


Pass tha pop corn.


[edit on 5/29/05 by EastCoastKid]



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Carseller4
Don't be surprised if good ole Dick Cheney decides to run!


Oh you thought Dubya was runnin' things?!


Come on, now!



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Some people don't know this; but, Reagan began his political life as a liberal Democrat. He was a big FDR guy, as most were.



I think Reagan was a moderate Democrat he later said the Democrat party deserted him. I think his wife Nancy and his childhood had a big influnce on his move to the political right. But alas Im getting off topic pass the popcorn.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
I think Reagan was a moderate Democrat he later said the Democrat party deserted him. I think his wife Nancy and his childhood had a big influnce on his move to the political right. But alas Im getting off topic pass the popcorn.


Excerpts from: Ronald Reagan and his Quest to Abolish Nuclear Weapons, By: Paul Lettow

Reagan's antinuclearism is one of the best kept secrets of his political career, for it fails to conform to conventional wisdom. Reagan's quest to abolish nuclear weapons is only nbow becoming widely known, sixty years after it began.

This book offers a fresh portrayal of Reagan, drawn largely from newly available evidence. Reagan was much more complex than is generally understood, and his personal influence on his administration was direct and extensive.
- from the introduction

From Chapter I: Origins

The thirty-four year-old Ronald Reagan, recently discharged from U.S. Army service and an established film star, then considered himself to be a liberal Democrat and was an earnest, if "naive," member of HICCASP (Hollywood Independent Citizens Committee of Arts, Sciences and Proessions).

As the above passages show, Ronald Reagan has been greatly misunderstood. He was much more intelligent and involved than most give him credit for. Simply put, he was a revolutionary. And as he grew, he grew into one of our greatest Republicans.



posted on May, 30 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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Well friend, I'm afraid I'm going to be taking exception to virtually every sentence of this post, but for the sake of ease I'm going to pick and choose the issues and stay away from the partisan dogma such as the 'S' being inserted into re-elected.


Originally posted by EastCoastKid
There's a civil war brewing in the ranks of the GOP. It has been brewing for quite some time, but the cracks are starting to show now.

I don't believe that disagreement equates to civil war. If there has been a recent civil war in the GOP it was when Ross Perot split the conservative vote, allowing Clinton to enter his first term with a measly 41% of the popular vote.
When the GOP rebounded with the Contract With America- that was the revolution in the GOP. It is a shame that it didn't go better, especially on the issue of term limits, but the real point here is that a few disagreements in the GOP are hardly a civil war, and in fact pale in comparison to what went on a little over 10 years ago.


You basically have two groups: Old-school, Paleo-Conservatives & moderates and you have the movement Republicans (religious fundamentalists) & Neo Cons.


I would argue that you have the Republican party and a few semi-conservatives like McCain positioning themselves for the 2008 race. The Republican party has lost its identity thanks to the war on terror. Fiscal conservatism is gone, small government is gone, and only the grass roots seem to remember that illegal immigration is both a winning issue (defeated only by activist judges in most cases) and a vital policy issue.
I strongly believe that both of these things will change in a few years, especially if a Republican who isn't named McCain wins in 2008. The so called moderate republicans won't have any more reason to play to the democrats and when the war on terror begins to wind down we're going to see a renewed call for fiscal conservatism and other key conservative issues, especially if I am correct in my belief that the left will begin to gain ground in the senate in 2008 and 2010.

Again, really no civil war in my humble opinion- just a little bit of a SNAFU resulting from the right's unexpected rise to power post Clinton combined with the extraordinary circumstances of the war.


Something strange is happening, though. The Old-schoolers have put their ears on and are exercising their God-given common sense. They've heard the public and its disdain for so many of the assinine policies being pushed by Bush and his extremist faction.


The extremist faction seems to be the bigger faction. We've got a couple of people doing some pre-election politicking because Bush is a lame duck. They'll calm down a little if a democrat gets into office and they'll calm down a lot if a loyal republican gets into office.


They're finally, publicly breaking ranks with the corrupt GOP leadership and putting the good of the nation before party loyalties. What a slap in the face to the ethically challenged Tom DeLay and political opportunist and presidential wanna-be Bill Frist.


As much as I hate "the hammer" and company I'm not ready to believe that anybody on either side of the aisle or in the middle is putting me ahead of himself. Everyone does what's best for them. For the so-called moderates, being moderate is best for them. If these people really wanted to oppose the rank and file of their party and put us first, why don't they defect and put the senate back in Democrat hands? Becuase they need Republican nominations- especially presedential hopeful McCain. They don't want to break the leash- they just want to get the attention of those who hold it.



Bush, Frist and DeLay have seriously and disasterously overreached on a number of issues. It's been one thing after the next. Iraq, the Terri Shiavo case, the "nuclear option" (filibuster fight), the Bolton affair, social security, the stem-cell debate. Only a vengeful, ruthless fringe group in this country actually supports this ongoing madness the president is promoting.


What a can of worms. We'll start with the so-called nuclear option. We've all come to expect G-dub to engage in nuclear fearmongering, but since when do democrats try to tell us that congress is going to be attacked with a nuclear weapon? The fact of the matter is that rules changes are not unprecedented. There is nothing illegal or unconstitutional about it. It's not very classy- I'll give you that, but since when has class mattered on either side of the aisle? The moderate right tried stunts like this when they were out of power. The problem is that moderates are being ignored on both sides of the aisle now, so.
The Schaivo case was a waste- a huge joke- no arguement there, but let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. It was a PR stunt.
Iraq- another big mistake. Keep in mind that I'm not here to pick sides or defend the Republican party. I'm only challenging the idea that there is any serious split in the right or for that matter in meaningful opposition coming from the other side. If the left and the so called moderates were going to take a stand why didn't they do it when it mattered- on the Iraq issue? Do tell, could it have been because the republican nomination wasn't really up for grabs and the Iraq issue was good for the democrats?
I'll save you the laundry list because my stance on the remaining issues is similiar.



It's also time to make it clear to those fanatic pseudo-Republicans that the United States will not tolerate being ruled by a Taliban-like fundamentalist government!


I know you're better than that friend. We've got to be above this sort of partisan vitriol, even at P@ATS. The right is in trouble- almost as much as the left- but it's no civil war, and there is no voice of reason.
If there was a voice of reason it would be talking about fiscal conservatism and illegal immigration- not Bolton and a few judges. That voice of reason only exists in the grass roots for the most part. But we'll have our day. God willing we (the right) will lose the white house and a few seats in congress in 2008, then we in the grass roots can put some new blood in there and have our day in November 2012- just in time for the end of the world.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
Fiscal conservatism is gone, small government is gone, and only the grass roots seem to remember that illegal immigration is both a winning issue (defeated only by activist judges in most cases) and a vital policy issue.


Activist judges? Think again. Immigration is another issue that divides the Republican party. There are those traditional corporate conservatives, like Bush and McCain, that favor an approach that allows business the ability to continue to access a cheaper workforce by sponsoring 'guest-worker' or 'essential-worker' H-5B visas and continuing some federally-funded welfare programs.


But the breadth of Mr. McCain's proposal, and its potential to split his party, underscores the challenge of getting it enacted. It would invest more in border security through technology such as unmanned aerial vehicles, while creating an 'essential worker' H-5A visa for immigrants willing to fill low-skilled jobs that Americans won't take. Applicants would have to show that a job is waiting for them, pay a $500 fee, and clear security and medical checks.

Undocumented workers already here could register for a temporary H-5B visa that would be good for as long as six years. To qualify for permanent legal status, they would have to clear security checks, pay back taxes and a $2,000 fee, and learn English. Hospitals caring for illegal immigrants would be eligible for federal reimbursement.

'This is not an amnesty bill,' Mr. McCain declared on the Senate floor as he introduced the legislation. more from the WSJ 5/17/05


Then there are the social conservatives, like Tom Tancredo, that support tougher immigration laws, who not only want to eliminate illegal immigration and all associated federal funding, but also reduce legal immigration by decreasing the number of H-1B visas for technology specialists and lower all immigration quotas to stem population growth.

This issue has created a divide between the traditional Republicans that support big business and the social conservatives. Tancredo has alread been slapped down once by Republican party management (aka Tom Delay) for setting up his Team America PAC and going after colleagues because of their immigration policies.

Now that McCain has introduced a bi-partisan bill that Tancredo feels is tantamount to amnesty, I'm sure that the Republican rift will just get bigger. Tancredo has already blasted the McCain bill, how long is it until we have a real, knock-down, drag-out battle going on here? I'm sure that management can't be pleased when bickering can be heard from under the big tent...



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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The issues within the Republican party have to do, exclusively, with those that spot trends & then take action items relative to their power quest. Some in the GOP camp realize that this era will have a very scorched Earth affect on the AMerican Physce, and are distancing themselves on the record. Sometimes, political gain has the side effect of doing something good for the citizenry.
Trent Lott is going to eventually play big, IMO, because he was abandoned big & retribution to the current GOP power structure surly consumes that man's every waking hour. Remember, he would have been the one primping for a WH run in 2008.
Political Captial is dependent on political fallout, and the least damaged will have the reigns for the 2008 WH run. Jeb Bush & Bill Frist are the only two that will seriously be considered - both have extreme damage possible that can derail them, both have levels of deniability and both have been groomed to be the heir apparent.
They will lose the WH in 2008, but both will be blind to the pitfalls - Frist = the backlash against the ChristCon movement will ensnare Frist. Jeb = the family name.
For all intents & purposes, there are no Republican moderates. At no time can I remember any party being so effective in smothering the baby of party dissent as today's NeoCons.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 02:53 PM
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As far as Frist goes, my feeling is that he doesn't have it. Ya gotta have that it factor. Besides, he's already shot himself in both feet with the Shiavo and filibuster fiascos.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by lmgnyc

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Fiscal conservatism is gone, small government is gone, and only the grass roots seem to remember that illegal immigration is both a winning issue (defeated only by activist judges in most cases) and a vital policy issue.


Activist judges? Think again. Immigration is another issue that divides the Republican party. There are those traditional corporate conservatives, like Bush and McCain, that favor an approach that allows business the ability to continue to access a cheaper workforce by sponsoring 'guest-worker' or 'essential-worker' H-5B visas and continuing some federally-funded welfare programs.


How is that in any way contradictory to my post? As I said, only the grass roots remember that it is a winning issue and a vital policy issue. Bush doesn't think it's a vital policy issue because he likes the fact that the we can circumvent the high wages required by honest working citizens.
As far as the activist judges go, you might remember a little something called prop 187- passed overwhelmingly in the PRC (People's Republic of California) and stricken down by the courts. So I repeat- the Republican party has lost its identity. They aren't having a civil war over who they are- they uniformly do not know who they are beyond the grass roots.

Most of us get it. It's not difficult. We don't want to play catch and release, we don't want to pay for these people's hospital bills, and we don't want them driving down wages by creating an oversupply of jobs. Our party doesn't get it though, as evidenced by the proposal from McCain that you brought up. Where is the discipline and where is the concerted effort from our party which has virtually full run of the government at present? Tancredo does us no good at all the party doesn't have this in their heart. This issue isn't going to go anywhere, much less cause a civil war in the party, because the party doesn't care about it that much. Why else did the REAL ID Act leave room for illegals to get non-federally recognized licenses? The fact of the matter is that most Republicans don't think it's a winning issue or don't think it's important, so they'd rather let it be a state problem for the border states rather than risking that they might tee off minority voters.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
the Republican party has lost its identity. They aren't having a civil war over who they are- they uniformly do not know who they are beyond the grass roots.


Hey! I know who I are!


Far too many Republicans aren't thinking for themselves. It's like they're on auto pilot mentally. They'd follow these pseudo-Republicans right over a cliff like the sheep they are.
It's so frustrating. Another part of it has to do with the fact that alot of people think they're Republicans b/c of the War on Terror. A lot of those folks are probly just a wee bit too young to remember what the Republicans used to be about.

It's sad.. very sad.

On another note.. I was disappointed to learn that PAT BUCHANAN is not Deep Throat, afterall.




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