The Kinross Incident

Check into the town names in Pennsylvania for a real treat....

Such as Intercourse, PA...for example.

Several months before the Kinross incident a UFO visible as a blue-green light about 6 ft in diameter slowly paralled the main runway at Tyndall AFB, FL where a squadron of F89Cs were operating. It was observed about midnight by at least one night-time flight line person, and several others as it buzzed their car off-base. It is quite likely that the control tower staff noted the incident and logged it, but it was not publicized at the time, and I have never seen anything about it in the UFO lore even today.

GAZ, great post!! Always love to read your work.
There have been several suggestions that Lake Superior would be
iced over at that time and there would be wreckage of a hole in the ice. Growing up in Northern Wisconsin, I would say that it would be nearly impossible for Superior to be iced over at that location on the map you posted, at that time of year. It would be interesting to get the weather details. I remember in the 60's when Lake Michigan was nearly froze over, but that was much later into the winter months.

Sorry for not giving credit to the poster that suggested the same.

I have included a link regarding the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald on Nov. 10th, 1975. Only to give an idea how bad that lake is that time of year.

www.ssefo.com...

Gaz, keep up the great work!

Muck

Speaking of the Edmond Fitzgerald.....I understand there is still some mystery surrounding it. I have family in the upper peninsula and have been told by several people that there were ufo sightings everywhere around the Great Lakes and specifically Lake Superior the night of the wreck. Also I was told a tale by someone who knew a sailor that had missed E.F. and took another ship that sailed behind. ( I was not told the distance apart) Apparently this man and the crew of the smaller boat that followed witnessed a white glowing haze come directly down up the E.F. and then the ship disappeared in a matter of seconds. They also witnessed UF0's. I know this is all heresay but have been told similar accounts by different people who don't even know one another. Just curious if anyone has heard anything else.

I live in the upper peninsula, I've had family in that storm and its still talked about today. I know the area like the back of my hand.

My apologies. My post was to reference the condition of Lake Superior during the month of November, not to get off track.

Let's stay with the Kinross Incident!

Thanks!

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Another thing to note:

Lake Superior, at the time, was mostly covered with a good layer of ice. Yet after this incident, flyovers of the area showed no break in the surface of the ice. None. The plane had quite literally vanished into mid air.

ple.

Lake supperior doesn't freeze over in novermber. its usually starts to freeze at the end of december and is frozen till the middle of march..usually. it didn't freeze over this year.


there are alot of fisherman and tankers around the area, I've heard all kinds of lore, this story is talked about too, and goes hand in hand with all the boats that have gone missing for like the last 200 years.

[edit on 11-2-2006 by waffleprime]

[edit on 11-2-2006 by waffleprime]

Originally posted by Gazrok
The Kinross Incident

In 1953, a UFO was detected on radar near Kinross AFB, Michigan. A Northrop F-89C Scorpion (assigned to the 433rd Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Traux Field, Madison WI) was scrambled from Kinross AFB and sent to intercept and identify this target. Radar controllers watched as the F-89 closed in on the UFO, and then sat stunned in amazement as the two blips merged on the screen, and the UFO left. The F-89 and it’s two man crew (Pilot First Lieutenant Felix E. Moncla, Jr, and Radar Observer Second Lieutenant Robert L. Wilson) were never found, even after a thorough search of the area.

[[edit on 26-4-2005 by Gazrok]

Hi Gazrok,

Thanks for your year-old post on this subject. You might be interested in reviewing the web pages I have posted to UFOBC on this subject:

www.ufobc.ca...

Originally posted by Hal9000

I wonder how they explain the death of a pilot under these circumstanses to their families?

Edit: PeanutButterJellyTime, is it possible to determine the altitude with radar? I believe altitude is returned from the IFF transponder signal, is that right? If the anomoly was at the same altitude as the plane, wouldn't this be more evidence?

[edit on 4/28/2005 by Hal9000]

The USAF explained this incident as an accident. The base chaplain and base commander visited the pilot Lt. Moncla's wife and told her that F-89 had probably banked to avoid collision with the aircraft it was sent to identify and then crashed into Lake Superior. (Lt. Col. Harry Shoup's theory at the time). Apparently, she was later told that the aircraft probably exploded in mid-air (another theory, probably to explain why they didn't see the F-89 descend below 7000 feet on height finder radar.)

I believe the radar stations had a separate radar to get the altitude of targets. They knew the altitude of the "unknown target" even though it had no transponder signal - or signal was unidentified.

Originally posted by SkiFreak
I wonder if the F-89C aircraft in question from this event was 'remanufactured' & fitted with the stronger wing structure and attachment points??

A sonar survey of the alleged wreckage area probrably won't reveal anything- remember, Lake Superior is a VERY deep lake with some area aproaching depths of nearly 1800ft. I don't know what kind of depths of water near the wreckage area, but I'm sure that they are none-too-shallow.

Something to think about...
T.S.

The F-89 was one with the strengthened airframe and fins added to wing-tip fuel tanks. This is stated in news stories and in the USAF report on the accident.

If the F-89 crashed into Lake Superior, I am reasonably certain it would be possible to find traces of the aircraft wreckage using sonar imaging, although I suspect most of it would be in small parts and would be in deep water in the middle of the lake.

You might be interested in accounts of military jet aircraft parts found in the bush north of Sault Ste. Marie in October 1968. It doesn't appear that the US military (who inspected the parts although they were found in Canada) ever provided a positive identification for the parts found. In response to an inquiry of Canadian National Defence about the parts, they told me they were unable to find any record of the incident where these aircraft parts were found in Canada.

See following URL:

www.ufobc.ca...

Originally posted by SpookyVince
This is a way interesting one, but no one seemed to notice that the initial reports don't conflict: a C-47 is simply the military version of the DC-3, and quite obviously they are rigorously exactly the same on the radar, unless one of them carries some special outside equipment.

This is a good observation, but the situation may have been more complicated that that. There are a number of sources that refer to a DC-3 which penetrated restricted air space over Soo Locks as being the cause of the initial alert. In Donald Keyhoe's book, The Flying Saucer Conspiracy, he wrote that a PIO at the Pentagon, a Lt. White, told him this was the cause of the alert. Also, the book asserts that Frank Edwards interviewed two pilots of the DC-3 on his nationally syndicated radio show, just after the incident. The two pilots refuted the allegation their plane had flown over Soo Locks.

Note that Frank Edwards did not interview the RCAF pilot, Flight Lieutenant Gerald Fosberg, who was flying the RCAF C-47 that was flying EAST over Lake Superior at the time of the alert. So there seems to have been a separate commercial civilian airliner involved. What I find strange is that their is no mention of the civilian airliner in newspaper accounts published in Sault Ste. Marie the following day. If the pilots of this DC-3 were interviewed, this was covered up or ignored by the print press.

Originally posted by Gazrok
More info:

Since learning the identity of the radar operator, I've had the chance to pose some questions to him, which he has answered. Now, as he has chosen to be called only John C., I will respect that wish, and add only that I have great trust in the source of this confirmation. However, to you, the reader, I can only offer it as additional info to those wishing more information on this case.

I got a chance to ask him some of the questions you had for my dad. He does not remember what type of radar they were using at Battle Creek. He said he never heard anything about a Canadian plane, and was present during the entire incident. Everyone present in the control room were told not to speak of the incident as well.

He also added a new piece of information, I guess talking about it stirred his memory a bit. He said that they were first alerted to the target by a station to the north of his position, one of the SAGE radars in northern Michigan I am assuming. He said they turned the radar on to long range and tracked the target which was moving at a considerably faster speed than aircraft of that time.

The target moved to a position and stayed there for 10 minutes in a stationary position, at which point it was intercepted by the fighter. He said that when fighters were scrambled, the planes were in the air in about 2 minutes and he used this to guestimate the approximation of 10 minutes.

I did not ask him if we could use his name on the message board, and to be honest I am uncomfortable with the idea. The reason is when [censored by request] I was almost immedietly contacted by one Gordon Heath. He attacked the veracity of my story and also the anonymous nature of my "source."

When he did a little digging and found out that there really were two fighters dispatched initially and that the source was my old man he changed his attitude. Apparently until [censored by request] everyone assumed that only a single plane had been dispatched to intercept.

I am worried that people may harass him if we use his name. I suppose that I am being over protective, so if you want you can identify him as John C. I believe he was a staff seargent. (not positive that was his rank at that time)

I would appreciate it if you do not mention [censored per request]. I do not advertise it any longer. If you think of anything else, just let me know. I can tell you this though, that incident convinced my father that ufo's are real, and are being intelligently operated. He has cited the Kinross incident as proof in his eyes my entire life.

As I am the researcher in this incident, I should clarify my inquiries. Yes, I did contact the person who posted this information because I was seeking clarification of some of the information. I had some initial doubts about the information contained, so I wanted to find out more.

I did acknowledge the possibility that the purported witness might have been present at the Battle Creek radar site, and that he might have witnessed the incident from this location - as it appears that multiple radar sites did in fact witness the whole incident.

However, all my research leads me to conclude that parts of his memory recall of the incident may be in error as I have retrieved no indication that two F-89s were scrambled on the initial alert. After contact was lost with the F-89, a total of three F-89s were scrambled as part of the Search and Rescue efforts at different times. At one point, there were in fact three F-89s in the air over Lake Superior.

Please refer to the following URL for further explanation:
www.ufobc.ca...

Since parts of the USAF report are quite questionable and probably part of a cover-up, this might mean that it is not a reliable source for other information. However, I have talked on the phone with former Lt. Mingenebach, the pilot in the second F-89 in the air that night and he confirmed some details about the his Search and Rescue efforts. I think I also asked him about his testimony that he and his radar observer thought they heard an accidental radio transmission from Lt. Moncla, about 40 minutes after radar and radio contact was lost with Lt. Moncla's F-89.

See here:
www.ufobc.ca...

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
Has any more modern aircraft been invesigating UFO's only to disapear?

I had some visions a F-14 flyby and I had some feelings that in a previous life I was investigating UFO's and that they took me onboard somehow.

I believe I was killed due to that experience.

I do know that F-14's have been gone missing without a good reason.

I know is this very much a "what if" scenario which I have no evidence for but a vision, a feeling and a feeling of fear for greys.

Very interesting.

If you further read about my story below, you will find out that I have many memories that seem to go back to the pilot of this incident. I'm sure that most of you will find this material to be beyond believable, and I have to admit, I find much of it hard to believe or rationalize. I just have a lot of unexplained memories and a deep fascination with the case which has compelled me to visit the sites of incident, an unexplained encounter I remember as a child, and the hometown of pilot Lt. Felix Eugene Moncla, Jr. (Gene), where I met surviving friends and members of his family.

www.ufobc.ca...

I have read there were many other fatal encounters between UFOs and air force fighters over the years, but few are at all well documented. The Valentich disappearance (not an Air Force encounter) is the best documented.

I have questions about an incident involving the fatal crash of a US Air Force F-86 Sabre jet into Grouse Mountain, north of Vancouver, BC in February 1954. The incident as told in the press certainly leaves me with some unanswered questions.

www.ufobc.ca...

So if someone else has possible "past life memories" of aircraft encounters with UFOs and aliens, I certainly would be interested in hearing about it.

Hi bluestreak, thanks for your very interesting and personal web site and this thread.
Your parents behaved very strange and there´s something wrong without question.
Somehow they tell you you are not their son.

I´d push all my relatives who could know something really hard. It´s your right to know the truth.
The way they act is irresponsible.

You have been in contact with the wife/daughter of the missing pilot.
Did you ever think about an analysis of DNA ?
All you´d need is a hair of one of the pilots relatives.
The cost for the test should be less than 100 USD.
At least you´d be sure your parents are your real parents in 3D space and time.

That cleared I´d carefully search for a good hypnotist. Someone I believe I could trust.
Not someone from the Ufo/alien abduction scene, someone who has a reputation in childhood traumatas.
I´d just tell him I´d have the feeling something very strange has happened in my childhood
which is blocked by amnesia and start from there.

Thanks for sharing and all the best.

Nice find. So basically, there still isn't any plausible explanation (other than extraterrestrial)?

Originally posted by cycles
Hi bluestreak, thanks for your very interesting and personal web site and this thread.
Your parents behaved very strange and there´s something wrong without question.
Somehow they tell you you are not their son.

I´d push all my relatives who could know something really hard. It´s your right to know the truth.
The way they act is irresponsible.

You have been in contact with the wife/daughter of the missing pilot.
Did you ever think about an analysis of DNA ?
All you´d need is a hair of one of the pilots relatives.
The cost for the test should be less than 100 USD.
At least you´d be sure your parents are your real parents in 3D space and time.
Thanks for sharing and all the best.

Thanks for the feedback. It was only on the one occasion, my father actually stated I was not his son - actually he used gestures and facial expressions to get me to say this, and then he nodded his head in agreement, before he wrote down the name of my real biological father. My father has never mentioned the incident and seems to have no recall of it.

When I last talked to her about this, my mother could not remember the incident - except that I drove her to the hospital when my older brother refused to do so. Yes. Something is very strange, but somehow, I believe my parents may somehow have been manipulated on this and other occasions.

There also was one occasion where my brother was similarly involved, but he could not even remember what happened later that same day.

It would be possible to have a DNA analysis if enough relatives were interested in this. I believe that most DNA tests for paternity use the Y chromosome (and tests of maternity use mitochondrial DNA). This would imply that a living male relative on the Moncla side of Gene Moncla's family would be needed to do this type of test. This is not cheap and certainly requires the consent of the participants.

Well, for the DNA test, I don´t know how much they are in the United States,
in Europe they are about 70 Euros (90 USD).
There are about 800.000 tests performed here every year, most of them secretly
by fathers who are not so sure about their acclaimed offsprings.

You could compare yours to your fathers DNA easily.

If the test verifies biological parentship you can go on searching traces of reincarnation.
If negative, you should confront your mother with the results (very very softly).

Your father in hospital, on the edge of death, would not lie to you.
Anyway, they have to answer your questions honestly.
They don´t do you any good with strange hints.
The story is at the core of your life and, unfortunately, kind of a prison.
Talk to them. Tell them the truth will set you free.

People talking about the F89 banking sharply to avoid collision, actually colliding with another aircraft, flying into a heavy flock of birds, etc. apparently don't realize the F89C was equipped with highly advanced radar fpr the day. The pilots were trained to vector in on their radar to get close enough to an unknown to visually identify it. In another post I noted that some months earlier an unknown night time UFO had been seen at an F89 training base in Florida by competent observers, and the incident apparently not reported in official records.

The alclad on the rivet heads of leading edge of the wing of an F-89C would peel a little If the wings had been heavily stressed. This could be felt by rubbing your hand across the surface on pre-flight. This was known before the air show crash, but would not put the plane in the red. The idea that the F-89C lost it's wings on the lake intercept in question doesnt seem too likely after the air show crash. The pilots knew that some F-89s had been sent to depot on barges --- which did not generate a lot of confidence in Northrup. The pilots tended to treat the aircraft with kid gloves and refrain from hot-dogging or operating anywhere near the Mach .95 redline. Some dumped the fuel in the tip tanks at first opportunity after takeoff to reduce wing loading. A violent manuver on the intercept in question seems unlikely unless the bogey blew up, made a firing pass, or tried to ram the 89. The UFO suspicion is interesting because of the sighting in Florida.

bluestreak...sorry I haven't posted more on this, but I want to be able to fully devote the proper time to look over your material before commenting...but I'll comment long enough to extend some gratitude...