Rate of fire vs. Caliber of projectile.

I was curious what you thought the most important aspect of a fire arm was, whether it be military or personal protection. Is it the Rate of fire (how many rounds you can shoot in a short period of time) or the stopping power with sheer mass of the bullet and accurate shooting. It seems to me that i would rather have someone that can place less bullets in the field of play with greater accuracy and fewer non combatant cassualties (that you could get with a spray of lead with no real target). Sure it's cool to say my gun can shoot 500 rounds a minute, but is it better than being able to conserve ammo and hit the target? Our military (US) seems to be going for the volume of fire approach instead of emphasizing good shooting ability, does anyone else see this as a detriment to our defence capabilities?

I guess it depends on the situation you need it for.

High rates of fire is only good for keeping the enemies head down while you advance on them, IMO. Its a waste of ammo.

For personal protection stopping power is more important, better to stop them with one shot than to have to shoot many times. This is why many law enforcement agencies are moving away from the 9mm, because it doesn't have the needed stoping power.


I don't think our military is going for volume over marksmanship. They usually teach them to shoot in short bursts rather than full auto, unless you are talking about the larger weapons usually mounted on vehicles.

But again it all depends on the situation.

I'll rather take accuracy with either one of the above. There is no use firing a 12.7mm or firing 500 bullets when you can't hit your target.

Originally posted by AegisFang
Our military (US) seems to be going for the volume of fire approach instead of emphasizing good shooting ability, does anyone else see this as a detriment to our defence capabilities?

Our military goes for both.

We strive for 'one shot one kill' accuracy with our individual weapons like the M16/M4, but we also employ crew-served supporting fire weapons such as the SAW and the M240B.

They both serve their purposes. I was a machine gunner for over a year, and the idea was to lay down a continual suppressive fire in support of an assault operation. Meaning, just laying down a lot of lead to squeeze the enemy, keep their heads down and don't allow them to be able to fire at our own.

As far as rate of fire vs. caliber of round, in close up fighting, I would prefer to have a .45 than an M4 simply because the .45 causes such traumatic damage (regardless of where it strikes), that it allows you to carry less ammo. I would prefer to have an extended magazine for said .45, though. Say 30 rounds or so.

I agree with DC. The rate of fire requied is based on the situation. I agree with the 45 also. The 45 jammed a lot, but was easy to clear and you didn't have to hit someone three times center of mass to take them down. I realize it's nice to be able to have an M4 and sponge ammo off other NATO troops, but other than that the weapon is garbage.

Small caliber, high rate of fire, reminds me of two weapons in two games I absolutely hate

1) Assault rifles, from Halo, with maximum effective range of 15 m. Empty 2 or 3 clips into an alien and he's still alive

2) Ingrams, from Max Payne. Empty all 300 ingram bullets into any boss character and all they say is ouch. And they're not even space aliens, they're humans.

i used play delta force online it is very intresting game .
they offer diffrent weapon platform like . m4, 50mm colt. standerd sniper.mp5, saw,

one shot one kill is possiable with only 50mm colt, m4 need more fire to kill.
although it is game it can give you nice exprice with virtul war.
but in real world single bullet some time can kill when hit the right place.

but 50mm is great in long range for close in support m4 is the best.

50mm? that's a VERY big bore.

IMO the best realistic game is Rainbow Six, the perfect simulation.

The mod for Quake 3, Urban Terror, is also a very realistic mod, fun in multi-player.

as for real life, I'd have it lined up like this:

Home protection: 12ga, Mossberg 590 Compact Cruiser.

A 12ga would be the best choice since the blast will do little collateral damage, I wouldn't be killing an inocent bystander with this.

Self Protection: Para-Ordinance M1911 clone in .40caliber or .45caliber.

Both are decent calibers, the .40 has a bigger clip and is cheaper while the .45 has a smaller clip, but the rounds are alot more powerful.

Country Protection: SAR-1 AK-47 clone in 7.62x39mm or FN FAL in 7.62x51mm

The AK is a durable and reliable weapon, the caliber is solid although not very accurate and some what range impaired, but in urban fighting this would be of little importance.

The FN FAL is of a high caliber, good accuracy and range but not as reliable/durable.

Wel ground zero then you havent played Infiltration Operation flashpoint the third reich and red orchestra all are more realistic than rainbow six.

Originally posted by mirza2003
i used play delta force online it is very intresting game .
they offer diffrent weapon platform like . m4, 50mm colt. standerd sniper.mp5, saw,

one shot one kill is possiable with only 50mm colt, m4 need more fire to kill.
although it is game it can give you nice exprice with virtul war.
but in real world single bullet some time can kill when hit the right place.

but 50mm is great in long range for close in support m4 is the best.

If you want to play the most real world games, i would suggest American's Army (AA) it's made by the US army and i think it is very accurate to real life.

A few intresting posts. Im not really into video games or such so that stuff doesnt really intrest me.
Agree with the poster.who said the miliatary uses both approaches depending on the situation, aimed fire or supression fire. Also agree with the basic outline of Ground Zero's approach to his weapons cache. I prefer my Ithica 12 gauge for home protection. For carry I like my .45 Colt auto or my .357. The FN rifle is supposed to be accurate like the M14 but never could afford them . AK and SKS series of rifles while not particularly known for accuracy are known for reliability...nothing to turn ones nose at.
No sense in talking accuracy if you cant shoot straight. It will mean little. This means lots of practice with your weapon. I dont like the M16 series personally though I own .223s in bolt action and also two mini 14s. I dont shoot the Mini 14s much as they are not much for accuracy.
Also one more thing to think about in high rates of fire and training to use it. Can you afford to feed it. Ammo costs money ...especially if you shoot alot. Same with reloading. Unless you have the ammo budget of Uncle Sam...I stongly suggest you learn to shoot accurately with whatever you are using. Know your weapon of choice. No substitute for this.
I have been hearing stories coming out of Afganistan and especially out of Iraq that the M16 rifles with the new type holo sights are doing a good job though battery drain is a problem. Keep lots of spare batteries. The stories I have heard are that at first it was thought that executions where taking place because of the number of accurate head shots till it was realized the sighting systems were the cause.
One of the problems in Afganistan is range..across some of the valleys .in the mountains they found the M16 series wanting and have taken out alot of M14 from warehouses where they were collecting dust. These rifles and accurate bolt actions seem to be the ticket for this difficult terrain. Ironic isnt it???? Very few M14s are in warehouses gathering dust now days.

Great posts..Ground Zero and Delta Chaos...you too Skibum

Thank you Gentlemen

Orangetom

Originally posted by Taishyou
Small caliber, high rate of fire, reminds me of two weapons in two games I absolutely hate

1) Assault rifles, from Halo, with maximum effective range of 15 m. Empty 2 or 3 clips into an alien and he's still alive

2) Ingrams, from Max Payne. Empty all 300 ingram bullets into any boss character and all they say is ouch. And they're not even space aliens, they're humans.

They're not even humans. They're digital representations of humans.

Game discussions should be relegated back to GAMES FORUMS. Personally, I don't feel there is any room on this board for anything that is diliberately UNREAL.

Some of the things discussed on these boards are unreal, and some are not, but those unreal things are still debatable.

There is a forum on BTS designed for these very arguments. If you would like to discuss weapons relative to the video games in which they appear, please hang out in that forum.

Thank you.

Thank you Orange

I know this is not the board for games talk, but another posted started it, so I just dropped in my 2 cents

I personally don't own any firearms yet, but that's what I plan to get at some point when I move back to the US.

Currently I have a solid aluminum baseball bat and a highpowered air rifle if i'm really desperate.

Fortunatly there has only been one attempted break-in in the last few weeks in my neighborhood.

No problem here with baseball bat diplomacy..properly used ..it is quite persuasive...Yup!!! I keep one around myself..!!

I have several firearms here..but for recreation and honing skills I have returned to basic bolt actions. I am attempting to learn bench rest shooting with a heavy barreled Springfield 1903. I have built this rifle over the years and still working on it. I also have a heavy barreled rifle in .223 for economy as the 30,06 can get expensive with match grade ammo.It takes time and dicipline to settle in to some serious shooting with either rifle. Trigger work...the sensitivity of the trigger mechanism makes alot of difference.
I also went out and bought a heavy barreled .22 long rifle bolt action for even greater economy..and just down right fun knocking around cans and such. I was surprised up at the club where I shoot as to how accurate a olde .22 long rife can be if built and handled properly...quite a revelation to me..when I first started. Also the olde timers are great at giving you tips and knowlege you dont usually get...I am grateful to them for this info.
These olde timers have also given me lots of tips on reloading from cleaning and sizing my brass to primers and powder charges. I actually enjoy some days spending as much time on the reloading bench with a good cup of coffee and just knocking about thus. I find it relaxing working up a good load for my rifles or handguns.

Say .I hear that in the UK they have taken the air rifle buisness and design to some new plateaus..some really nice air rifles..!! I've seen a few and they are not toys...no sir!!

Thanks Orangetom

They have quite some heavy caliber air guns really, some go up to .50 cal!!! those are slugs for blackpowder guns.

I have seen some nice .22's as well...

My Shadowmatic is fairly decent in power but you really have to fire it from a very stable position or else it's very prone to miss...

Good grief...ground zero,

I didnt know airguns go up to .50 caliber. That is big bore.!! Ive only seen them in17,.20,and .22 caliber. Also there are of course a variety of sighting systems available today.
In many things I like a good iron sight, preferably the micrometer adjustable target type with replacable aperture.

Thanks
Orangetom

what about the aspect of different types of ammo/cal??.i.e FMG..AP..DU?
do some of these make a difference to accuracy and range etc?

also i have a friend in the medical corp and he claims that some smaller cal ammo is designed to injure combatants rather than kill(for reasons of tying up other troops apparently i.e..its takes 2 troops to move and care for injured personel..thereby denying the enemy more field troops)

but i agree with most above post`s..it depends on what the fight is..high rate of fire is used for suppression,to allow reasonably safe assaults on enemy positions and enable flanking manoveurs
and M4/AK and .45 are for up close and personel

my £2 worth

Heratix out

I heard this stupid article in a news paper the the US M855 5.56mm rounds use DU round and that they would kill any man hit by such a round, it would be true if they really did use DU rounds, but only heavy armor piercing rounds use them right? 25~30mm? or 105~120mm? even them will be replaced by Tungsten rounds at some point.

Originally posted by ulshadow
If you want to play the most real world games, i would suggest American's Army (AA) it's made by the US army and i think it is very accurate to real life.

What?! a few months ago I played it, it was tough going through the written exam. I wasted my time learing how to shoot properly while proning, and when I played online I see people jumping and spraing with SAWs.

AA's spec-ops training is difficult, I always get spotted...lol and I have no clue where to go...