Zelenskyi in Denmark for a formal hand over of outdated F16s

originally posted by: paraphi
Your brain is addled by watching too much YouTube, or whatever.

I don't obtain my knowledge from informational videos, but strictly from careful reading.

originally posted by: paraphi
The only country that is acting like it's 1815 is Russia. Everyone else is committed to preserving the sovereignty of Ukraine. Poland, or anyone else, is not going to invade Ukraine. [EDIT: to add that no country has a territorial dispute with Ukraine, except Russia, who is illegally occupying a good portion of Ukraine.]

What's your source?

That sounds like you're just parroting from some article, perhaps this article: euvsdisinfo.eu... Which doesn't actually bother to prove it's claim that "Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity are respected by almost the whole world", it just focuses on building up a case for Russia's aggression and refuting Russian claims of a persecuted Russian minority in eastern Ukraine.

I know from experience that when one tries to aggressively assert oneself in a community, people eventually get tired of their antics and in the end they merely tolerate their existence. The only reason why Europe still puts up with Poland/Ukraine: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". People underestimate the lengths such troublemakers will go to avenge themselves. You underestimate Slavic nationalism.

It's not for nothing that the Poles were long known as Europe's "problem child", alongside Hungary and France. These three nations are in fact a ferment of decay at the present time, the very cause of Europe's disintegration. They are motivated by a selfish desire to profit at someone else's expense. "When each individual is trying to gain the ascendancy over his neighbour, instead of co-operate with him, how, indeed, can it be otherwise?" Russia's aggression/pending invasion is merely a consequence of their activities.

Even war criminals like Churchill and Hitler were disturbed by the Polish people's narrow-mindedness, pig-headed obstinance, lack of realism, tendency towards demagogy/social agitation. Despite his crushing military superiority, Hitler still regarded them as an enemy to be wary of, he took measures to ensure that the Germans would no longer mingle with Poles and bestow their superfluity (as a rule, the Polish Germans sided with the Poles). Russian propagandists have seized upon Churchill's indictment, detracting from its moral weight, but it is nonetheless an authentic quote which can be read in Churchill's The Gathering Storm:

"And now, when every one of these aids and advantages has been squandered and thrown away, Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand, to guarantee the integrity of Poland—of that very Poland which with hyena appetite had only six months before joined in the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak State.'

American diplomat George Kennan once remarked on a Polish teacher's critique for the Poles: "Individual self-adulation is bad enough; collective self-adulation is even more dangerous." According to him, their self-pity leads them to the dangerous assumption that if they only had the freedom/power, they'd know how to wield it properly. He called this a "dreadful illusion". I should also not neglect to mention that after WW2, the Poles and Czech exacted violent reprisals against Germans and treated them harshly until the Russians put an end to their mischief.

Poland, having experienced a humiliating defeat in the partitioning of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, has an obsessive need to re-assert itself, much like France. According to Simone Weil, France has feverishly been occupied with "carving out for herself" her share of foreign colonies and ensuring its hegemony over Europe. She traced it back to the humiliation France suffered in the War of 1871. "France no longer felt capable of any vocation higher than that of conquering in her turn."

originally posted by: paraphi
For one thing - why would they want a border with the murderous Russians?

Because they're the only physical buffer standing between a Russian and German cooperation, which is the only thing which threatens NATO/American hegemony and jeopardizes the "rules-based" order Poland benefits from.

It is very likely that the sabotage behind Nord Stream 2 was with the help of Poles (1, 2)

- By now, assorted chattering classes are aware of former Polish Defense Minister and current MEP Radek Sirkorski’s tweet: “Thank you, USA.” But why would puny Poland be on the forefront? There’s atavic Russophobia, a number of very convoluted internal political reasons, but most of all, a concerted plan to attack Germany built on pent up resentment – including new demands for WWII reparations.

- The attack not only escalates the Polish election campaign. It also continues the Morawiecki government’s plan to attack Germany, first by reviving the reparations claim for the invasion and occupation of 1939-45; and second, by targeting alleged German complicity, corruption, and appeasement in the Russian scheme to rule Europe at Poland’s expense.

In order for Russia to link up with Germany, it'd first have to overcome Poland. Why would Russians go to Germany? That's the part I've been trying to figure out.

Russia turning communist again seems likely, after they overcome Ukraine and reform the Soviet Union. If they're seriously committed to their anti-nazi stance, then the first sign of revolution in Germany would occasion immediate Russian intervention.

Priogzhin is the "silenced" voice of Putin, he says everything Putin wishes to say, but can't. My Russian contacts were already aware that his coup was staged and that there was no real rift between him and Putin. Prigozhin's coup opened up a window into western Europe, Putin is about to turn his attention westward.

I was informed that Prigozhin once threatened to go from Moscow into Germany, but I have had no luck tracking down the purported interview. None of my German contacts who returned their replies have heard about it. It's striking that Putin's media entourage (which draws away unwanted attention from Putin) have openly threatened Germany, but Prigozhin appears to be silent on the matter. Kadyrov, on the other hand, has threatened Germany on at least two occasions this year (Feb 15-16, Mar 4)

But what I do have is a very fascinating, possibly premonitory prediction from a Hungarian seer about a nuke being deployed near Lviv: old.reddit.com... He stresses that it's just a dream while the captions say:

-The nuclear missile crashed somewhere to the region of Western Ukraine.
-The mushroom cloud could also be seen from Nyiregyhaza.
-The initial radiation reached East-Hungary.

It is nonetheless very logical, considering the rumours about Prigozhin obtaining nukes in the Voronezh region and reports of him repositioning near Belarus/Kiev.

a reply to: putnam6

So Ukraine can't engage over the Black Sea at all?

Possibly they will be able to engage and patrol, as it's not like Russia has the Moskva at sea any longer to offer the same level of air cover and support.

But i don't see any of Russia's air assets being silly enough to come into range of their missiles.

Again as far as i can establish it will depend on where the F16s are based never mind what they're loaded with.

I don't see them acquiring the things and not using them, but they are not going to send them up to be simply blown out of the sky, as it would hardly inspire confidence or set a good example never mind the fact they simply do not have the trained pilots to waste.

As to defensive cover they will have in place to guard the sky above their airfields.

If they don't have Patriots in place, im sure they will have something, else Russia will simply target the bases with the likes of cruise missiles.

originally posted by: hjesterium
What's your source?

It's my opinion based on what I know.

Happy for you to signpost me any sensible source concerning outstanding territorial claims over Ukraine that have official bearing. Historic claims that have lapsed are not real claims, even if someone writes about them. To be clear, Poland has no claims for any part of Ukraine.

You underestimate Slavic nationalism, especially the Poles.

I don't underestimate Russian nationalism, and their propensity to war illegal wars.

a reply to: paraphi

You mean an opinion based on what you read from newspapers. To know is to perceive based on facts. www.youtube.com...=9m59s

As for sources:

During his visit to Poland on April 5, Ukrainian President Zelensky tweeted in ambiguous language, "In the future, there will be no borders between our peoples: political, economic and – what is very important – historical. But for that we still need to gain victory. For that, we need to walk side by side a little more." www.thefirstnews.com...

Approvingly, Polish President Andrzej Duda added, "I firmly believe that for the future, these words of his will still be prophetic. And that one day we will see such a situation - a free, independent, sovereign Ukraine, where Poles have lived for generations, and a free, sovereign, independent Republic as a brotherly state and brotherly nation." tvn24.pl...

At first glance, this appears to be Duda merely providing support and clarification. But to me, it's obvious that this is masked language covered up by colorful terms. Under modern democracy, people are ruled by promises and demagogy, lofty sounding words like democracy and freedom are exploited as labels and slogans. I interpret Zelensky's statement to mean that Ukraine and Poland will go their separate ways after defeating Russia, hence "we need to walk side by side a little more" before we can settle our historical dispute.

Russian leadership and their propagandists immediately seized upon these statements to mean Duda had confirmed official territorial claims.

tfiglobalnews.com... Here's a typical pro-Russian narrative unabashedly relying on Russian propaganda sources, although it admits that "these allegations are absurd and unfounded", it draws attention to how "they serve as a worrying reminder of the instability and unpredictability that exist in the area. These Russian leaders’ statements strike the Polish-Ukrainian relationship like a dagger, clouding any strides toward peace and stability with suspicion and mistrust."

In Germany: Jekyll and Hyde, Sebastian Haffner has written an excellent piece on the intended effect of propaganda:

Nazi propaganda aims not so much at being believed and at persuading, as at creating in our minds tenacious ideas and fantasies. Only very stupid Germans believed, for example, the atrocity stories that they were told in 1938 about the Czechs and in 1939 about the Poles. Most Germans with a knowing air said: “Goebbels.” But though they may recognize every statement for a lie, an image finally takes shape in their heads that recurs every time the cue “Czech” or “Pole” is mentioned... And this image cannot be corrected by reflection or reality.

_____

However, the pro-Russian Ukrainian activist Tatyana Montyan distinguishes herself from Russian propagandists in her own unique way. She has learned to read between the lines and possibly deciphered the actual message being communicated between governments, at the expense of the public, arguing that there can be no political borders between two countries - only if/when the people live in the same state. Plainly: the absence of borders means the absence of sovereignty.

Her assessment: golos.eu...

(Zelensky's statement that there will be no borders between Ukraine and Poland can only mean one of two things: either Poland will annex Ukraine, or Ukraine will annex Poland. The second option is dismissed as fantastic, but the first one is quite possible and will be a kind of historical grimace of the times of Pilsudski and Petliura.)

She further points out that political borders even exist in the EU, its members enjoy some degree of independence but must still comply with the rules. Why is Zelensky so desperate to gain admission into the EU?

This study draws attention to how admission into EU demands compliance with its values: www.cairn.info...

"Without the respect of treaties, regulations, directives, decisions, views and opinions of the European institutions, this inclusion would not have been possible... Therefore, Europe’s borders are not geographical or physical boundaries, but essentially political borders, because the community project has become more and more political."

"European borders are also moral boundaries: the frontiers of justice and human dignity, the frontiers of freedom and recognition of the diversity."

originally posted by: hjesterium
You mean an opinion based on what you read from newspapers.

You should not presume.

There is no territorial claim for Ukraine by any nation. Even Russia did not claim parts of Ukraine until they decided to violently occupy the land. Your original assertion that Poland and a bunch of other countries would march into Ukraine due to past land borders is false.

The reason why everyone distrusts Russia is that they have demonstrated to be both dishonest and have not attempted, by their actions, to atone or reconcile for the past. Russian jackboots were firmly pressed on the necks of nations in Eastern Europe for decades, before, during and after WW2. All nations in Eastern Europe suffered grievously, and fear the same again by a belligerent Russia.

Russia, piling up the bodies for 100 years.

a reply to: Nexttimemaybe

Not sure a handful of planes will manage to stay alive for more than a week.

Sure that's what some German guys said back in 1940....look how that turned out for them.

a reply to: paraphi

Honestly, I just wanted to say, "who are you to tell me what I should or not do?" But this is a predictable response, a slippery slope, usually how a discussion deteriorates into personal attacks.

I'll just deliver an ultimatum: Give me your source, or stop wasting my time. I can write essays for up to 18 hours per day if prompted... It's safe to assume you don't have one, since you've continually resorted to denial and groundless assertions.

What does it mean to "atone" (give me a clear definition), and what would it mean for Russia to "reconcile for the past"?

There's a sound reason why countries like the US and Russia will never issue apologies for their crimes. William Blum put it best: bailey83221.livejournal.com...

The nations would view it as a sign of weakness, the military-intelligence agencies and ultra-nationalists would perceive it as a betrayal by the nation's leader, the aggressors would keep up their senseless demands for reparations (nothing is more mistaken than to defend oneself against an accuser since they can keep churning out lies and allegations about the enemy). Basically, nobody wants to end up like Germany. If Germany's leaders yielded to Polish demands, they'd soon end up where they were in the 1920s-1930s.

I see where you're going with your attack on Russia's history. What's next, an attack on Marx, Lenin, and Stalin? Drawing the Sonderweg card for Russia will get you nowhere. While it's true that Stalin was continuing the legacy of the Tsars and their pan-Slavism (which is why his crimes were less shocking to the west compared to Hitler's), it's also true that he was sincerely committed to the Bolshevik cause (though not fanatical and open to diplomatic channels) and openly acknowledged that the Tsars were criminals (much like what Putin said about the Bolsheviks).

According to historian John Lukacs, "The Germans whom Hitler inherited were the most educated people in the world. The peoples whom Stalin came to rule were not. That is why the fanaticism and the brutality and the mass killings ordered by Hitler and committed by Germans were, and have remained, more shocking and unexpected than the brutalities and murders ordered by Stalin and committed by his underlings..."

In the case of Germany, Hitler's idea to unite all Germans under one Reich and one leader has no historical precedent in either Bismarck or Frederick the Great (though he was his historical model), and his anti-Semitism has nothing to do with Richard Wagner (who believed in redemption) and Martin Luther (a plaintiff involved in the Wittenberg Judensau controversy admitted that what Luther envisioned for Jews was far worse).

originally posted by: hjesterium
I see where you're going with your attack on Russia's history.

Then you understood my point.

Russia for the last 100 years has had an exceptionally bloody history. When they are not committing genocide in Ukraine, or relocating troublesome populations, or just plain-old ethnic cleaning; they are killing, subjugating their own people, or the people of the countries who are vassals to Moscow. Yes, piling up the bodies for 100 years.

The war they are prosecuting in Ukraine is just an extension of their history, full of irrationality, barbarity and pointless loss of life and destruction.

Is there anything I have said that you disagree with? Any factual inaccuracies?

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe
Not sure a handful of planes will manage to stay alive for more than a week.

I remember hearing that Ukraine would be lucky to last 5 days when this started. Go figure.

originally posted by: paraphi
Is there anything I have said that you disagree with? Any factual inaccuracies?

Exceptionally savage, but not barbaric until the advent of Bolshevism (which was tantamount to Protestantism, an attempt to establish dogma as facts).

Consider the fact that the Schism between the Orthodox Church Old Believers did not lead to the excesses of a Thirty Year War (Western Europe lost their senses over doctrinal differences, pettiness), a war which led to witch trials/burning, a war so devastating that polygamy had to be introduced at the end of it, as a result of which women outnumbered the men.

(Affected states/cities: Württemberg, Hessen, Büdingen, Wiesbaden, Magdeburg. The only regions which were largely spared from the war were Bremen and Frankfurt, though Frankfurt still had to deal with a bubonic plague outbreak.)

In comparison, the Old Believers faced mild persecutions in the form of excommunication and exile, often voluntarily; entire villages collectively self-immolated themselves as a form of protest, rather than being burned by inquisitions.

Like the ancient Germans and modern Japanese, the Russians are still at the stage of development before Christianity ("civilizational barbarism") was introduced. Christianity did not change Russians, they changed Christianity. For a long time, the Russians have remained in a state of savagery, not barbarism.

Schiller drew a clear distinction between the two: "Now man can be opposed to himself in a twofold manner: either as a savage, when his feelings rule over his principles; or as a barbarian, when his principles destroy his feelings. The savage despises art, and acknowledges nature as his despotic ruler; the barbarian laughs at nature, and dishonours it, but he often proceeds in a more contemptible way than the savage, to be the slave of his senses." sourcebooks.fordham.edu...

Here I should add: that the barbarian only looks for what pleases him or what he is familiar with, and ignores the rest of a book. This characterizes the majority of western philosophers (and college graduates), who only read other works in order to validate their own ideas.

For most of Russia's history, it was absolutely necessary for Russians to be ruled by despots, and also by half-giants like Peter the Great and Stalin. They needed to be disciplined and whipped into shape, the spirit of solidarity could only be installed in them by force; they had to be rigidly melded together or run the risk of going their separate ways (leading to anarchy). It was only with great reluctance that the Russians accepted the principle of organization (coercion), state authority, laws and ideas of justice, without which no community could exist.

The Russians were traditionally peasant folk, for they led a life close to nature and conformed their lifestyle to the rhythm of life (as reflected in their folklore, i.e. Ivan the Idiot), they understood that there must be periods of rest in the life of man, as there is for animals (hibernation). It's worth noting how they took into account weather signs, climate and seasonal changes, astronomical events (i.e. equinox, solstice). Westerners/city-dwellers do not take these things into consideration.

www.encyclopediaofukraine.com... It's also astonishing how much of their chronology has survived intact, as a result of overlapping records. It was customary for Russian chroniclers to copy much of the previous writings of several monasteries before beginning to record the events of his own time.

a reply to: hjesterium

often entire villages collectively self-immolated themselves as a form of protest, rather than being burned by inquisitions.

Entire villages self-immolated because of the inquisition as a form of protest!

That's a new one on me, never heard of that before, think you may have a good thread there in the making if indeed that is the case.

a reply to: Freeborn

And funnily enough, the same fellows that perpetrated and implemented the likes of Operation Barbarossa, that did not exactly go to plan or as expected.

Imagine if politicians had reacted to and assisted Ukraine, without expecting or receiving anything in return..........

Imagine if Zelenskyi hadn't had his campaign financed by a wealthy private person.........

I'm appalled that so many just disregard this.

Also find it ironic that we all allow ourselves to be sucked into this political play with public casualities, knowing what we know now. That NATO has been helping for decades, and Russia has been destabilizing for decades.

This really does reduce this to a NATO vs Russia issue.

And while everyone is so obsessed with making a new iron curtain just OUTSIDE Europe, everyone is forgetting:

- Who is it that shares borders in the Bering Strait? *Hint... it's not not Russia and the US / NATO*

Google Maps

2.5 miles or 55 miles depending on wether you calculate from Diomede island or Russia mainland.

a reply to: andy06shake

This musn't be misconstrued as barbarism, along the lines of Japanese kamikaze (misplaced sense of honor), Islamic suicide bombers (promise of paradise/reward), etc. Those were in the context of war. The Russian self-immolation was in the context of resisting a foreign imposition.

Let's not overlook the Buddhist martyr Thich Quang Duc, in protest against the persecution of Buddhists. In Buddhism, this practice has long been considered an act of heroism: sofrep.com...

Let's not overlook Ghandi's controversial/paradoxical suggestion that the Jews go to their deaths in droves willingly (as their ancestors once did against Syrians and Romans) instead of passively accepting their fate. www.jpost.com...

a reply to: hjesterium

I'm not misconstruing it as anything thus far hjesterium.

People have indeed been known to self-immolate for a variety of different reasons throughout history.

But entire villages?

What are the names of these villages, whose entire populous decided to self-immolate, because of the inquisition?

I mean there has to be some serious history there if that's the case.

After all martyrdom requires witnesses else its just suicide without even a note.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: paraphi

How will Ukraine keep them in the air, train pilots.
Seems a bit beyond their capabilities

Does it?

After all this time Ukraine still has an operating air force.

Launching Storm Shadows and stuff.

From the air.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: paraphi

How will Ukraine keep them in the air, train pilots.
Seems a bit beyond their capabilities

Does it?

After all this time Ukraine still has an operating air force.

Launching Storm Shadows and stuff.

From the air.

Ok, so you think Ukraine has f16 mechanics and pilots, all trained up?
Why did they have these pilots and mechanics for weapons they don’t own, or are all jets just the same
www.abc.net.au...

a reply to: Raggedyman

How do you get “Ukraine has F-16s” from that?

a reply to: Raggedyman

Where did I say anything like that?!

a reply to: Zaphod58

It’s called sarcasm