Russia launches 'exceptional' air attack on Kyiv

So after all of the bull# our government and the media gave us on COVID we are going to accept what ANY of them say about the war in Ukraine?

It is an arms demo. This is the new Afghanistan or Iraq for the world stage except now China is there and salivating because they are seeing the tech from the US and EU in combat...and it is not spectacular.

I do not believe anything coming from Kyiv. I do not believe anything coming from DC. I do not believe anything coming from Moscow...or China. It is all propaganda. Maybe we can send the 3rd Trans Cav to help....

Wag the Dog folks. Inflation and banking collapses are coming. Credit Default. Foreclosures. Fuel prices for electricity and gas for homes. Food prices have doubled in the last 12 months. Doubled.

If Russia wanted to they could flatten Ukraine but that is not how war works. Maybe read some of the Art of War because it is very applicable here. This is about occupation and not destruction.

a reply to: matafuchs

"This is about occupation and not destruction."

Tell that to Mariopul and Bakhmut?

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Ever see the Warsaw Pact war plan map ?

Mushroom cloud symbols all over Europe.

Not sure what they intended to occupy when that was over.

Cheers

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: M5xaz

Sorry but no, the logical extension to the 'None of Russia's business what Ukraine does inside its own borders' would be 'None of Ukraine's business what Russia does inside its own birders'.

It does not green light Russia invading a non-threatening neighbouring country and indicating the rest of the world should sit idly by twiddling its thumbs whilst Russia proceeds to bully and intimidate its former satellite countries into submission, again.

It's not about greenlighting anything

It's about following a consistency from Augustus's argument.




Fell free to pick up a rifle and head to Ukraine.
I know you won't do it....but you want someone ELSE to go and get killed.


Such virtue.....

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: M5xaz
Then, LOGICALLY, using your "argument" NONE of our business either then, not what Ukraine does to its' own citizens or what Russia does to Ukraine.

We aren't in Ukraine fighting, so yeah, that's my argument.

And I have no issue bankrupting the Russian military with what we've spent instead of dumping $800billion into the defense budget, much more economical.

So as long as we don't get forced into NATO troops fighting in Ukraine, that's my argument as well.
That would inevitably lead to global nuclear war

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: matafuchs

"This is about occupation and not destruction."

Tell that to Mariopul and Bakhmut?

With Russia, it is about ethnic cleansing. If all Ukrainians are pushed out of an area, or killed, then what remains is territory to repopulate with Russians. It's what Russia have been doing for decades.

Since 2013/14 the Donbas region - for instance - has been depopulated and the demographics of Crimea has become more "Russian" as Ukrainians have been forced out.

Back on topic re hypersonic weapons. I was told, by someone in the know, that the problem with hypersonic is the time-to-act. If you can crack the rapidity of decision-making in defence, then hypersonic weapons can be countered. This is where AI comes in, because response times may be limited by human decision-making "slowness". Similarly, a drawback of hypersonic is that the speeds/physics limits manoeuvrability, thus makings predicted flightpath easier.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JAY1980
So you don't care what Ukraine did to these people..

It's none of Russia's business what they did. This is a real simple concept but based on your irate commentary I am not surprised it doesn't register.

It IS Russias business because these Ukrainians are ethnic Russians, with many of them born and raised in Russia. I dont know whats so hard to understand?

The US invades countries, on the other side of the world, all the time under the guise of "abusing their own citizens". How many times have we heard "Saddam killed the kurds" we had to invade Iraq regardless?

If there was millions of Americans living in one area of Canada and the Canadian government armed extremists to attack them and then sent in their armed forces to attack them, regardless of any reason, you KNOW darn well the US would be involved after the FIRST American was killed, let alone thousands of them killed and injured.

originally posted by: MisguidedAngel
It IS Russias business because these Ukrainians are ethnic Russians, with many of them born and raised in Russia.

Once they leave Russia and move to another country it is no longer Russia's business what happens inside that country. If you don't want to be subject to what happens to you when you leave your country, here's a pro tip: DON'T LEAVE.

originally posted by: MisguidedAngel


If there was millions of Americans living in one area of Canada and the Canadian government armed extremists to attack them and then sent in their armed forces to attack them, regardless of any reason, you KNOW darn well the US would be involved after the FIRST American was killed, let alone thousands of them killed and injured.

On that basis Canada best not start annoying TPTB in the future ...................

"It is estimated that at least 35,000 Loyalist families settled in the Maritimes, with about 10,000 Loyalist families settling in Quebec (later Quebec and Ontario). Some historians estimate that there are at least four to six million Canadians living today (about one in five ) who are descended from a Loyalist ancestor" www.uelac.org...

a reply to: M5xaz

It's not about greenlighting anything
It's about following a consistency from Augustus's argument.

Oh dear, as I pointed out, consistency following on from 'What Ukraine does in Ukraine has nothing to do with Russia' would be 'What Russia does in Russia has nothing to do with Ukraine'.

It does not mean 'When Russia invades a non-threatening neighbour against its wishes has nothing to do with anyone else'.

Fell free to pick up a rifle and head to Ukraine.

A pretty lame retort....and at a rapidly approaching 58 years old I suspect I'd be more of a hindrance than an asset.

I know you won't do it....but you want someone ELSE to go and get killed.

I don't want ANYONE getting killed....and I think the quickest and easiest way for that to happen is for Russia to lay down their arms and return to the pre-invasion, internationally recognised borders.
Problem solved.

Of course that isn't going to happen, at least not any time soon, so at the moment I fully support the US/UK/NATO et al offering military aid to help Ukrainians fight foreign invaders in their homeland.

You don't.
You seem to want them to simply roll over, give up their sovereignty and accept Russian domination and control again.

That's entirely your choice, your opinion.

Such virtue.....

Such bollocks.

a reply to: MisguidedAngel

So, all those ethnic Mexicans in the USA.
If Mexico decides it disagrees with how the USA treats them does that give Mexico the right to dictate USA policy and dare I say reclaim parts of the US where high numbers of ethnic Mexicans live etc.

I know it won't happen but.....

Have you ever heard of Sudetenland?

originally posted by: Freeborn
Have you ever heard of Sudetenland?

Most of the people droning on couldn't tell you what conflict came before WW2.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: M5xaz

It's not about greenlighting anything
It's about following a consistency from Augustus's argument.

Oh dear, as I pointed out, consistency following on from 'What Ukraine does in Ukraine has nothing to do with Russia' would be 'What Russia does in Russia has nothing to do with Ukraine'.

It does not mean 'When Russia invades a non-threatening neighbour against its wishes has nothing to do with anyone else'.

Fell free to pick up a rifle and head to Ukraine.

A pretty lame retort....and at a rapidly approaching 58 years old I suspect I'd be more of a hindrance than an asset.

I know you won't do it....but you want someone ELSE to go and get killed.

I don't want ANYONE getting killed....and I think the quickest and easiest way for that to happen is for Russia to lay down their arms and return to the pre-invasion, internationally recognised borders.
Problem solved.

Of course that isn't going to happen, at least not any time soon, so at the moment I fully support the US/UK/NATO et al offering military aid to help Ukrainians fight foreign invaders in their homeland.

You don't.
You seem to want them to simply roll over, give up their sovereignty and accept Russian domination and control again.

That's entirely your choice, your opinion.

Such virtue.....

Such bollocks.

Bollocks is being so blind not to see that this is a STALEMATE

Bollocks is being too ignorant of history to know that when President Eisenhower saw a STALEMATE a Korea, he initiated a ceasefire, and too bad for territory lost or gained. Keep in mind that Eisenhower has extreme experience in war, having been Supreme Allied Commander in Europe during WW2. Were Eisnohower President today, as opposed to senile Biden, I am certain he would call for a ceasefire, exactly like Korea.

Neither party in Ukraine will cede ground. Same as Korea.
Ukraine knows this and has been pushing for NATO forces in Ukraine, which is EXACTLY what I do not want to see.

NATO fighting Russia will inevitably lead to tactical nukes being used, which in turn will lead to global nuclear WW3 and Billions of dead

a reply to: putnam6

Not to mention Russia now has real-world experience against a Patriot missile battery, as well as Russia now knows the limits of their hypersonic missiles, knowledge they can build on and share with China, Syria, Iran, etc.

Assuming they don't kill all their scientists they detained for treason the other day.

a reply to: M5xaz

I don't think many people want to see NATO troops in Ukraine.

The only way NATO forces will engage directly with Russian forces is if Russia invades/attacks a NATO nation.
That won't happen if Russia is stopped dead in its tracks in Ukraine.
If Russia had been able to gain control of the whole of Ukraine, which it may well have done without all the aid it has received from NATO et al, then it would only have been a matter of time before Russia attacked somewhere else, quite possibly a NATO nation, and thus leading to the scenario you so fear.

And that is why its important to maintain our support for Ukraine.

At some point there will be some type of a peace agreement.
I have no idea when or what type, but as much as possible that has to be Ukraine's choice - it is their land that has been invaded and destroyed by a foreign invader.

Morally I think its right to help support Ukraine in its fight against Putin's invasion.
I think its also right tactically - not that I profess to be any sort of great tactician or particularly morally upstanding person myself.

That's my personal opinion, irrelevant that it is.

You disagree and have your own opinion.
As is your right.