Demoralizing our troups while they fight our enemies

Originally posted by Frith
As far as proof as you request, I am not in Iraq. I am in the United States. The only proof I have is of the multiple reports I've read of soldiers shooting at innocent targets. Photos of dead non-combatants, and other semi-non-physical proof items because I am not physically in Iraq to scrape bodies off the ground to show them to you.


Do as you wish. You're not the one killing. Its the people you support who are.

Their mission is wrong and thats all I have to say at this point in time.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Frith]

Oh my, really have you ever heard of collateral damage or the innocent people killed in combat. Sometimes rounds go astray and they miss the target, and someone at the wrong place at the wrong time will be wounded or killed depending on were the round hit them. Also artillery guys have the technology to pinpoint where enemy indirect fire is coming from and some times people who are walking by or watching these guys get hit by incoming rounds.

Originally posted by demosthenes
OH MY GOD I can't believe someone would be so idiotic and shameless to even say something like that. What about the poor farmboy who wants to go to college, who enlisted in the army to get the GI Bill to pay for college, or the single mother who couldn't make ends meat who joined to feed her child.

There are more ways than one to get into college. Student loans, scholarships, and minimum wage jobs to name three. I know many single mothers who have never strapped on army boots to feed their children. They do regular work and or get government aid.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Shameless and idiotic to admit they dont want to fight?
Are you now setting terms for citizenship?

So by showing 2 extreme cases that makes him wrong and bad?

[Yes they dont ask to go to war but they go anyway..why because thier ordered. Who orders them?
The government....who's the government? The men and women we the people elect...who do they report to? The people....aka the civilians...
Their doing everything they think is "right" to stop the war, just as you think supporting the war is "right"...
I cant believe people think that because its demorilising then they shouldnt do it....the freedom of speach is demorilising...tht shouldnt be done to...the freedom to join the services or not SEVERLY weakens their number therefore demorilising them....should we reintroduce national service?


Firstly everyones opinion matters, if you cant accept this just follow the leader...
Secondly theycare about every single one of us since they agreed to stand and fight for us unless your trying to say they are fighting simply because they believe in one polition....
[
Defending freedom is not for everyone....they can play thier part....because he does not fight doesnt make him a coward....simply that he advocates violence...

Ok first question, why would you not want to defend what you so greatly charish.
No there is no law that says you have to serve to be a US citizen.

Extreme cases I think not most military people don't join to serve for a career unless they go officer. And I believe that there is more than just one or two of these type of people in the military, yes some just join to serve their country but alot look at the benefits like VA, or From Troops to Teachers. There are alot of people who just join for the college money and some join to travel the world or for the experience. But what justifies demoralization of the troops to end the war. Soldiers are just going to throw up their arms and say I quit because someone back home said that the war was bad. No people in the military build a bond between each other and they won't quit because they now the guy next to him or her needs them to watch their back and they're not going to fail their buddy.

Yes people in the military care about every single one of us but you will not directly effect them by your protests. And the troops are the ones that are willing to go out and fight when no one else wants to they're the ones that go and put their lives on the line for the ones that either not able to or are unwilling too.

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

"As a family member of as soldier over sees, the demoralization of our soldiers puts him at more risk of both death and unessessary ridicule for serving his country"

Lets split this up a second. How does a protest in the US or UK put the life of a soldier in Iraq at more or less risk of death?

As to the ridicule aspect, huh? The troops in Iraq are there due to an illegal order. There are rules regarding this yet none have taken this route. You fight in response to an illegal order you are a criminal. The least you can expect is some ridicule.

Cheers

BHR

[edit on 5-4-2005 by BillHicksRules]

I imagine this is the post you were wanting me to reply to.
Geez! calling someone a criminal because they support their troops is quite extreme don't you think? You better arrest a hell of a lot of people in this war, as well as past wars. Their has been opposition to almost every war i can think of. In fact you better arrest people the moment they or their family members sign up for boot camp.

"I imagine this is the post you were wanting me to reply to.
Geez! calling someone a criminal because they support their troops is quite extreme don't you think? You better arrest a hell of a lot of people in this war, as well as past wars. Their has been opposition to almost every war i can think of. In fact you better arrest people the moment they or their family members sign up for boot camp. "

actually, the way I read it, he was calling the troops criminals for following orders and going to war......

Originally posted by demosthenes
Ok first question, why would you not want to defend what you so greatly charish.

Defending doesnt mean picking up a rifle and standing on the wall...

No there is no law that says you have to serve to be a US citizen.

Yeah so why do you call him idiotic because he doesnt want to fight?

Extreme cases I think not most military people don't join to serve for a career unless they go officer. And I believe that there is more than just one or two of these type of people in the military, yes some just join to serve their country but alot look at the benefits like VA, or From Troops to Teachers. There are alot of people who just join for the college money and some join to travel the world or for the experience.

Extreme cases yes...does that kind of situation make up the majority of serving mena and women?
No...
Also I plan on serving for a career but dont plan on going officer...that kind of thinking isnt really plausible...

But what justifies demoralization of the troops to end the war. Soldiers are just going to throw up their arms and say I quit because someone back home said that the war was bad. No people in the military build a bond between each other and they won't quit because they now the guy next to him or her needs them to watch their back and they're not going to fail their buddy.

Are they trying to do that?
No, are they trying to change the governments opinion on this?
Yes...

Yes people in the military care about every single one of us but you will not directly effect them by your protests.

WRONG
If the US military sees thousands of thousands of citizens saying its wrong...they wont follow the order to fight...

And the troops are the ones that are willing to go out and fight when no one else wants to they're the ones that go and put their lives on the line for the ones that either not able to or are unwilling too.

Yeah thier willing to go out and fight other arent...whats so diffiuclt to understand...

Originally posted by Frith

[
There are more ways than one to get into college. Student loans, scholarships, and minimum wage jobs to name three. I know many single mothers who have never strapped on army boots to feed their children. They do regular work and or get government aid.

Yeah I now of some women too who have made ends meet working other jobs rather than join the military one being my mother. But most women don't have experience in anything and so they join the military to live and get experience in different jobs. And they make pretty good money and have pretty good lives. So where is the justification in protesting them?

Ok yeah there are different ways to get into college. But for financial aid you need to put what you made the previous year and what that is depends on whether or not your going to get it or not. And as for scholarships if you went to college then you would now that the competition for those is rough and only the best get them. And for the minimum wage jobs won't help a bit if unless your getting help from some where else. In the military you can save money and also get the GI Bill. So once again where is the justification in making these people feel bad about doing what they feel is right?

My sons a soldier serving there right now. I am appalled at some of the statements mentioned in this thread. How many have actual family members out there who are posting? It seems to me that a lot of posts are just made by arm chair soldiers who think they know more than the next guy.

As i said, my son is a soldier.
Do i have the right to support him? Do i have the right to support any of the troops? Of course i do. But reading the other posts, suggests to me that i could be wrong for supporting him and his fellow soldiers out there now.
Do i support the War? No way. Its wrong, but we are there now. We have to make sure our troops have the full backing from us sat at home debating on a forum.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
My sons a soldier serving there right now. I am appalled at some of the statements mentioned in this thread. How many have actual family members out there who are posting? It seems to me that a lot of posts are just made by arm chair soldiers who think they know more than the next guy.

As i said, my son is a soldier.
Do i have the right to support him? Do i have the right to support any of the troops? Of course i do. But reading the other posts, suggests to me that i could be wrong for supporting him and his fellow soldiers out there now.
Do i support the War? No way. Its wrong, but we are there now. We have to make sure our troops have the full backing from us sat at home debating on a forum.

The reason behind people protesting?
To make the government get your son out of there...not say they'll come home at christmas and then go back after say a months leave but to not come back...

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
This is simply another side to think about when supporting or protesting the war. This is meant to respect both side opinions and can be debatable. Just keep our soldiers in mind....support them and respect them irregarless the circumstances.

I opposed this war from the beginning. The administration has lied through its teeth straight down the line. Over 1500 of our men and women in uniform are DEAD because of it. Thousands more are maimed. We don't even count the enemy dead and innocents mistakenly, or not mistakenly killed. This administration is guilty for greenlighting torture and turned around and blamed it on the troops we're supposed to be SUPPORTING. ?One day, be sure, our nation will be held to account for allowing this insanity to occur.

I'm a veteran. I support the troops. Because I support them, I speak UP for them. It's time to do right by them and BRING THEM HOME!

Let the neocons fight their own battles.

Oh yeah, I forgot. They don't fight. They send others to do their dirty work. Cowards.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
My sons a soldier serving there right now. I am appalled at some of the statements mentioned in this thread. How many have actual family members out there who are posting? It seems to me that a lot of posts are just made by arm chair soldiers who think they know more than the next guy.

As i said, my son is a soldier.
Do i have the right to support him? Do i have the right to support any of the troops? Of course i do. But reading the other posts, suggests to me that i could be wrong for supporting him and his fellow soldiers out there now.
Do i support the War? No way. Its wrong, but we are there now. We have to make sure our troops have the full backing from us sat at home debating on a forum.

Pray for his life and a his swift return home alive and unharmed.

Cheers

Originally posted by yanchek
Pray for his life and a his swift return home alive and unharmed.

I second that.

Very very brief chronology:
-Bush says "there be WMD in Iraq, US is in danger, we go disarm Saddam Hussein"
-No WMDs found in Iraq, Saddam Hussein is disarmed.

Job done. No more reason to be there. Go home.

Outcome of war:
The good: Saddam is no longer in power
The bad: Iraq is in ruins. No WMD found = many suspect the war began with a lie.
Verdict: neutral. US did both good and bad in Iraq. Some might say they owe the Iraqis because they ruined the country, but since they also took out Saddam Hussein, they owe nothing more. Good enough. Go home.

Next step: let UN take care of the rest (humanitarian, new government, etc.) I would not trust the Bush admin with making a new government in Iraq. (Saddam was originally given power by the US government don't forget)

[edit on 5-4-2005 by Taishyou]

Originally posted by Taishyou
Very very brief chronology:
-Bush says "there be WMD in Iraq, US is in danger, we go disarm Saddam Hussein"
-No WMDs found in Iraq, Saddam Hussein is disarmed.

Job done. No more reason to be there. Go home.

Outcome of war:
The good: Saddam is no longer in power
The bad: Iraq is in ruins. No WMD found = many suspect the war began with a lie.
Verdict: neutral. US did both good and bad in Iraq. Some might say they owe the Iraqis because they ruined the country, but since they also took out Saddam Hussein, they owe nothing more. Good enough. Go home.

Next step: let UN take care of the rest (humanitarian, new government, etc.) I would not trust the Bush admin with making a new government in Iraq. (Saddam was originally given power by the US government don't forget)

[edit on 5-4-2005 by Taishyou]

Thats a good respectful upfront approch. And im glad that someone alteast has an open mind to see both sides.
I would be a little concerned with pulling out too fast. I do think we are in a much better position to pull out now than we were several months ago. I don't know if the UN could handle it or not. However leaving Iraq in shambles places the Iraqi's in a very vulnerable position, as well as leaving an even worse breeding ground for terrorists to eventually attack the US or others. .....we are kind of stuck....taking off too fast has negatives. Staying longer has negatives, but with a possible better future outlook.

Anyways, thanks for your participation and respectful upfront approch

Carburetor

Mr Carb,

So in answer to my question, yes you are only going to answer the points that do not cause you to have to actually have facts to back up your idealism.

Glad I know that now.

Cheers

BHR

Anyone who tells me they fight for my freedoms and then turns around and tries to oppress my opinion or judge my loyalty to the nation, is a hypocrite and an enemy of freedom.

My forefathers did not fight and die so that some self-righteous ego-maniacs could lay down their own parameters for where they think my freedom starts or should end.

Let this be clear.

Cargo,

Hear, hear.

Great post.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by cargo
Anyone who tells me they fight for my freedoms and then turns around and tries to oppress my opinion or judge my loyalty to the nation, is a hypocrite and an enemy of freedom.

My forefathers did not fight and die so that some self-righteous ego-maniacs could lay down their own parameters for where they think my freedom starts or should end.

Let this be clear.

Sorry, but i never tried to suppress anyones freedoms or ability to express their opinions. I simply offered a topic covering the flip side of not supporting our troups, as this is a debate & discussion based website. Others here chose to drag this into a match between supporters or non-supporters of the war. And in that case, is it not fair that you have your opinion and i have mine? .....and for the self righteous ego maniac comment?....You go to far man. You don't know me. I've done my best to stay respectful in my views, as you would have noticed that appologized to a few people if i in any way offended them. ......and the hypocrite comment goes both ways as i have been shot down just as much in this thread for trying to express my opinions as well.

Mr Carb,

All I asked of you was to show me how my failure to support the war could cause any harm to the troops.

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Mr Carb,

So in answer to my question, yes you are only going to answer the points that do not cause you to have to actually have facts to back up your idealism.

Glad I know that now.

Cheers

BHR

The Demoralizing effect on our soldiers has been reflected from the soldiers themselves as well as those enduring the tasks with them. It comes from both word of mouth, interviews, and surveys. I provided some of my own links introducing the thread. The majority of topics discussed on this website are initiated by idealism,.....so what is your point? .....it takes an idea to initiate a search to initiate a discussion on your thoughts. .......Most of your addition to this thread has been to simply try to belittle me. Once again i tried to lay out a different view of how not supporting our troups can effect them in the field, and never attacked your freedoms to express yourself. Did my original post not say somthing to the extent of....."I understand and respect those who protest and oppose the war, however it is demoralizing the troops"

A respectful approch to my opionion that has some backing. I appologize any offenses you took,....and i ask that you please be respectful of mine.

Carburetor